Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[1beleevr]

Hey, freedomwriter, aren’t all catholics “born again?”

 

[1beleevr]

elvisman: Here we go again; now I am confusedI answered your questions previous to post#390, and I apologize for impling that you were anal! I was just reading about how we as the Body of Christ, are to edify each other, and not tear each other down, or question each other’s faith(Romans 14:10) Not saying that YOU personally challeng anyone else’s faith, but sometimes, in a contentious forum like this, onemight(myself included) may come across as such! I have never even believed that ANYONE prayed through Mary or the saints for salvation Until I came into this forum, I wasn’t sure why catholics did, just curious! It seems that we non-catholics, should be afforded the same courtesy, of not feeling either the need or desire to pray through the saints! And believe me, brother, as a member of not only the Bride of Christ, but my church’s intercessory prayer team, I practice and believe in inercessory prayer(for me, just through Jesus, not the saints!") Hey, do you believe everyone who makes it to Heaven, will shed their earthly spiritual titles, and just worship and praise as ONE big happy family? And will the worship and praise be loud and boisterous?

 

[1beleevr]

guanophore: The sticking point, in the discussion about confessing sins to a priest(I just couldn’t bring myself to say"Forgive me, father, for I have sinned; to a man), seems to be whether everyone accepts the notion that the apostles were indeed granted authority to forgive sins That’s what so unique about scripture, or for that matter, any printed text; it can be interpreted so many different ways! And of course the early catholic leaders, would not tell catholics that it was not necessary to confess to a priest

 

[freedomwriter]

This is where I believe the confusion lies. I believe there are sins men commit against God and only God can forgive them and I believe there are sins man commits againts men as well as God.

I believe if a person sins against you, it is then up to you to forgive that person. Yet, would he still not have to ask God for forgiveness?

And why would a believer who is born again through Christ not forgive, for it is written, he who forgives is forgiven.

You are right but i think the point that is being made on this thread is that you don’t have to confess your sin’s to a priest, mary or “saints”. Christ is the only one who can ask the father on our behalf.

 

[freedomwriter]

Boy This is new to me I was thinking God had the POWER to do as He please but breathing on people does not made a diff, please do not tell this to, Adam & Eva

Matt 16:9 and John 20:23 here Jesus gives authority to all believers to Declare what was bound or loosed in heaven. All this must be understood in the context of Matt18:15-17 where Christ laid out specific instructions for dealing with sin in the church. The body of believers acting in accord with God’s Word has the authority to Declare if someone is forgiven or unforgiven. The church’s authority is not to determine these things, but to Declare the judgment of heaven based on the principles of the Word. When they make such judgments on the basis of God’s Word, they can be sure heaven is in accord. In other words whatever they bind or loose on earth is already bound or loosed in heaven.
You see you learn something new everyday.

 

[freedomwriter]

Why do you call yourself “Catholic” when you obviously are not?

Because I was a catholic for over 30 years till i got tired of all the misinterpretations the church was saying about scripture. I also got tired of seeing the pope being worshipped as if he was Christ himself. Asking for money was a big issue for me as well. The church i now attend does not ask for money 2-3 a service. They simply have offering boxes around the church so if you want to give you can without being told. As the Lord loves a cheerful giver not a disgruntled one. Sorry if i offend anyone but those are just a few of the reasons for being a “Born again Catholic”

 

[bicolmonk]

So you are making the claim that she is your mediator. Enough said.

Explain these

1 timothy 4:16 16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back,
20 he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[bicolmonk]

My point is to separate two things.

1. Intercessory prayer. My previous post was to demonstrate that Catholics and Orthodox do not “pray”, as prayer to God. They are making prayer requests.
2. The issue of prayer to those in the Church Triumphant is a different matter. Scripture is clear that they pray for us the Church Militant in a general way. The only question is whether or not they can hear our personal requests for intercession.

I am not convinced they can, but I can point to scripture that causes me to consider the possibility, as well as the fact that the practice predates the schism by hundreds of years.

Jon

BTW, Jesus did exactly this.

1 timothy 4:16 16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back,
20 he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[bicolmonk]

Matt. 1:23 “Behold, the virgin will be with child, and will bring forth a son, and they will call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Also Luke 2:7

Unless you don’t believe that He was born fully God, and fully man. Mary can quite scripturally be called Theotokos, the God bearer, the Mother of God.

Jon

1 timothy 4:16 16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back,
20 he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[bicolmonk]

So you are making the claim that she is your mediator. Enough said.

1 timothy 4:16 16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back,
20 he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[bicolmonk]

Bill is not bound to provide Scriptural support because he does not claim Scripture as justification for all his beliefs. You do make that claim, so you need to back up what you say with Scripture in order to be consistent.

This trolling is tiresome. Does anyone have anything new or meaningful to say?

1 timothy 4:16 16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back,
20 he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[bicolmonk]

Well it was just said: “She might as well be my/your mediator”. Thats huge and just proves to me that there seems to be a big problem here. We have a famous devotional song that calls Mary “Our Life, Our Sweetness, and our Hope”. Is it any wonder that some people think we worship Mary?
One evening I was at an ecumenical meeting. an otherwise clever Catholic brother said: “I believe Mary might have suffered just as much as Jesus when she stood next to the Cross”. In spite of my normal resolve not to show inner division to evangelical brothers I had to protest loudly. Jesus ALONE carried all the sin of mankind up on the Cross. I felt it was horrible that a student of theology that I otherwise look up to as a teacher could make such a blunder…
I also have problems when people say: “Mary have mercy on me” or call her “the door to heaven” and stuff like that. It’s a huge stumbling block. I have been in discussions about this before. I believe in Catholic marian theology but I strongly disagree with the use of words we have in some devotions and songs in the Church. I have stopped singing along on these things.
Earlier we had a discussion on these boards about the title “mediatrix”. I was happy to see that almost everyone here agreed that making this title a dogma would be a very bad idea.
It is possible to use words, that make people stumble at our doors and run away screeming, which we however can make a case for with 10 full written pages of apologetics … but why would we?

Well, I believe that when you are confronted by Mary because you attacked her unprovked you will say “Mary have mercy on me.”

 

[bicolmonk]

Well it was just said: “She might as well be my/your mediator”. Thats huge and just proves to me that there seems to be a big problem here. We have a famous devotional song that calls Mary “Our Life, Our Sweetness, and our Hope”. Is it any wonder that some people think we worship Mary?
One evening I was at an ecumenical meeting. an otherwise clever Catholic brother said: “I believe Mary might have suffered just as much as Jesus when she stood next to the Cross”. In spite of my normal resolve not to show inner division to evangelical brothers I had to protest loudly. Jesus ALONE carried all the sin of mankind up on the Cross. I felt it was horrible that a student of theology that I otherwise look up to as a teacher could make such a blunder…
I also have problems when people say: “Mary have mercy on me” or call her “the door to heaven” and stuff like that. It’s a huge stumbling block. I have been in discussions about this before. I believe in Catholic marian theology but I strongly disagree with the use of words we have in some devotions and songs in the Church. I have stopped singing along on these things.
Earlier we had a discussion on these boards about the title “mediatrix”. I was happy to see that almost everyone here agreed that making this title a dogma would be a very bad idea.
It is possible to use words, that make people stumble at our doors and run away screeming, which we however can make a case for with 10 full written pages of apologetics … but why would we?

1 timothy 4:16 16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back,
20 he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

RK … these verses are speaking to the Believers, the elect in Christ. The Lord’s prayer is for the elect to follow … not the unrighteous, who are in need of Forgiveness of Christ. Until we are first forgiven … we can’t truly understand how to forgive those who trespass against us.

Christ always forgives us first. Then, once we are reborn, we have the grace from God to understand we need to forgive others. Nicodemus first believed Christ, was forgiven, and thereafter realized he need to restore to those he had harmed. Same for Paul. Paul was forgiven & transformed … before he gave his life to fellowmen and learned to forgive those legalistic Jews who now desired to persecute him.

While Jesus was talking directly to His disciples, He was also talking to you and me. In Matt 14:16 Just before He feeds the multitude He says: “But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat.” And in Mark 6:37 “He answered and said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they say unto him, Shall we go and buy two hundred pennyworth of bread, and give them to eat?” These vs. are symbolic for what Christ was really going to do for them and that is give them the bread of life Jn 6:48I am that bread of life. And that life was manifest in THE WORD Jn 6:63 the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. You will notice that Jesus always gives the food to the apostles first and they give it to the multitude. This is symbolic of Him giving the word to them first and they gave it to the world. Matt 13:16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

The multitude that Jesus fed with the loaves and fishes and His words and the multitude that He fed with just His words in the sermon on the mount Matt5-7 where He gave them the Lord’s prayer I am sure were not all believers before He talked to them. Jn 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. But if their spirit was willing they could not help but be changed after.

 

[1beleevr]

Richard Kastner: Finally, someone else who believes that Jesus’s words are spoken to us as well as His disciples! Otherwise, why do we read the Bible! And besides, it’s the same voice speaking in Jerusalem,Judea, Samaria, and Galilee; that spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai! When Jesus says,“Where two or more of you are gathered in my Name, there I will be also!”, He’s talkng to us also. The promises Hemade, and will keep of preparing us a place, in Our Father’s mansion, that’s for us, also!

 

[1beleevr]

bicolmonk: You might want to check your computer; it seems to be stuck on those three chapters! Or maybe your Bible only has those three(1 Tim 4:16, 1Cor 9:22, James 5:19-20). Are these supposed to prove something about Mary being a mediator? And imagine being James,“That’s right, my brother is the Messiah!”, You could wow them at show and tell!

 

[SHW]

Finally someone else got it right. No one is given the right to forgive sins in the priest sense. We don’t need to confess are sins to anyone else but Christ. God Bless you Richard.

Please do not call yourself a “born again Catholic.” You are not Catholic in your beliefs. FYI: All Catholics are born again when they are baptized.

 

[onenow1]

These vs. are symbolic for what Christ was really going to do for them and that is give them the bread of life Jn 6:48I am that bread of life. And that life was manifest in THE WORD Jn 6:63 the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. You will notice that Jesus always gives the food to the apostles first and they give it to the multitude. This is symbolic of Him giving the word to them first and they gave it to the world.

Quote= onenow1. Hi, Richard What happened to these verses, in your post. Richard, they don’t count for you ?

Here :

49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”
59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper’na-um.
60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”
61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?
62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?

Verse 62 I believe explains vs.63. Jesus is talking about His ascension a [Miracle] Just like Cana and more importantly, when He changes bread and wine into His body and blood. :yup:

Peace, and God Bless, onenow1. " Lunch time "

 

[1beleevr]

Bill Pick: I know this subject was some ways back, but I have to agree with Richard Kastner and others, that Jesus was 100% man, and 100% God:thumbsup: In order for us to overcome things that we face in this human body, i.e, sin, temptation, and the biggie; death, He had to wear flesh, and defeat all of these. It was the Spirit of God in Him that allowed Him to do the miracles, including walking on water. It was the humaness in Him, that brought forth the fatigue, hunger, thirst and anger! Even in the garden, praying, His flesh did not want to go through the agony of the Cross, but His Spiritual side, and His obedience to the Father, led Him to the Cross; that and His intense love for us:thumbsup:I wonder if Jesus did have Mary’s DNA, or did He have just God’s, and Mary was but the vessel, through which He was delivered to the world?

 

[1beleevr]

onenow1: You have to admit, that many who would hear Jesus speak these verses; may have the tendency to beieve that they convey a message of cannibalism We know that He didn’t mean to eat His flesh and drink His blood literally, but figuratively! Jesus’s blood is the river of life, and His body, is the Bread of Life! In communion, we are remembering His sacrifice on the Cross, and how He told us that His blood was the sign of the New Covenant; and then the veil was torn from the top down, to allow us access to a place only reserved for priests before: the throneroom of grace!(Hebrews 4:16)So, you can continue doing communion the way you have(transsubstantiation), and we(non-catholics will continue doing it the way that Jesus and His disciples did it!And we will both believe that we are doing it right:thumbsup: