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Tanner9188
Guest
Read post #787; it gives all the details.
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Breynolds12
Guest
whether by word or by letter from US, the us is the Apostles, and who taught the Apostles???
you say also Our Pastor teaches verse by verse through each book of the Bible; which use to be the norm and has faded away. Our Bible study also goes verse by verse as well. just FYI, --------------the norm for who??? the norm 400 years ago or 2000… our traditions where started from our Lord, Jesus Christ and he is our Mediator Our Lord and Savior, and I receive him each week Body Blood Soul and Divinity,
I ask again? What are those traditions Paul refers to and be very specific and provide proof of your answer and I encourage anyone to answer this question This is a very jw always looking for proof show me in the Bible where there is an alter Call you have traditions too you just don`t see them that way!!! Good luck to you and may our Lords Peace be with you
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placido
Guest
You are using the truth for a wrong purppose. It is true that “the Holy Spirit is like river of truth, accessible to all who believe”. It is also partly true that “born again believers are what the Holy Spirit works through to get God’s message unto the world”. The problem is you want to reserve the right of determining who believes and who is born again - whoever gave you that infallibility …
Very true!
Very true!
Very true!
Very true!
placido
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Bill_Pick
Guest
Tanner My mind is not as good as it use to be but try Acts 20:35 we have no record of Jesus saying this only from Paul and try Matt2"23 see if that words. I do not have a Bible with me, Sorry
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1beleevr
Guest
placido: If one is properly taught, baptized(it would be catechised for you), and is rock-solid, in their relationship with Christ, they cannot be evangelized out of anything
But, in Matthew 28:19-20, Our Lord tells US to “Go forth, into all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father(not the pope), the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” As I am talking to anyone, not just my catholic friends, the subject of service(Mark 10:45), evangelism and witnessing comes up! Being overjoyed, and excited, about the opportunities I have been given to share the Gospel, I tell them not only about Jesus Shack, but about community oureaches, Bible studies, and fellowship(you know, things that edify the Body!) Anyway, then I say, "You should come out some time, and see for yourself, what God is doing in this city, or state, or whatever! So, placido, since you show unfounded fear(at least towards me), of non-catholics trying to “woo” catholics away from their church, you are showing paranoia. And in many of your posts, you come across as condescending, you know talking down to people, making them seem to be ignorant, and uneducated. You are also quite uncharitable, when you make false claims about why people visit this forum. Personally, I was directed here, by Peggy Frye, after she couldn’t or wouldn’t(not sure which one) answer a question about the POSSIBILITY of Mary having other children! Regardless of what you believe, I do not now, nor have I ever, tried to convince ANYONE to leave their church/religion. That is not my place, and I will not resort to such tactics.Previous to my coming to this forum, I had been talking to many of my catholic friends, and noticed that we had several differences of opinion on things spiritual. I have learned manythings in the last six months, but not enough to warrant conversion! My faith is(even though it’s different than yours) is SO strong right now, and ever since I discovered the JOY of serving, the Holy Spirit continues to reveal so much, and I find myself thinking more about eternity, than retirement! Our job as Christians, is to fill the Kingdom, not seats!! God bless you, my brother in Christ:thumbsup:
But, in Matthew 28:19-20, Our Lord tells US to “Go forth, into all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father(not the pope), the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” As I am talking to anyone, not just my catholic friends, the subject of service(Mark 10:45), evangelism and witnessing comes up! Being overjoyed, and excited, about the opportunities I have been given to share the Gospel, I tell them not only about Jesus Shack, but about community oureaches, Bible studies, and fellowship(you know, things that edify the Body!) Anyway, then I say, "You should come out some time, and see for yourself, what God is doing in this city, or state, or whatever! So, placido, since you show unfounded fear(at least towards me), of non-catholics trying to “woo” catholics away from their church, you are showing paranoia. And in many of your posts, you come across as condescending, you know talking down to people, making them seem to be ignorant, and uneducated. You are also quite uncharitable, when you make false claims about why people visit this forum. Personally, I was directed here, by Peggy Frye, after she couldn’t or wouldn’t(not sure which one) answer a question about the POSSIBILITY of Mary having other children! Regardless of what you believe, I do not now, nor have I ever, tried to convince ANYONE to leave their church/religion. That is not my place, and I will not resort to such tactics.Previous to my coming to this forum, I had been talking to many of my catholic friends, and noticed that we had several differences of opinion on things spiritual. I have learned manythings in the last six months, but not enough to warrant conversion! My faith is(even though it’s different than yours) is SO strong right now, and ever since I discovered the JOY of serving, the Holy Spirit continues to reveal so much, and I find myself thinking more about eternity, than retirement! Our job as Christians, is to fill the Kingdom, not seats!! God bless you, my brother in Christ:thumbsup:
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placido
Guest
I can’t believe you forget that easily. In post # 740 I said,
"placido:
To which you responded in post #745 saying,
But the text clearly says,
"NAB:
Every one here can see that the text does not say what you are saying. Just be honest and admit you were trying to distort the Holy Scripture.
Thanks!
placido
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placido
Guest
Same as saying Judas was never properly evangelized. Unlike you, Jesus was a weak evangelist.
Shows your determination in making youself the laughing stock - whaever the cost. No Catholic was ever baptized in the name of the Pope.
Sounds like what Jesus warned us against in Matthew 24:23.
“Projection” my dear, that is the name we give to the phenomenon of seeing in others what is in you.
That might be a weakness. I’ll try to improve on that one.
That might be a weakness. I’ll try to improve on that one.
Oh, you leave Matthew 28:19-20 aside when you can here?
placido
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Bill_Pick
Guest
Lets get this back on thread, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."
You need to remember first of all that at the time St. Paul wrote this there was only one Church – the Catholic Church. There was no such thing as a Christian that was not Catholic. So when St. Paul refers to the Church he is referring to the Catholic Church – the only church in existence. When we talks about the believers he is talking about fellow Catholics – the only kind of Christian in existence at the time. And, that Church was headed by the successor to St. Peter. It was a fellowship of believers under the leadership of the Bishop of Rome.
Here, St. Paul says the the Church, under the leadership of the Pope, is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Bible is not that pillar and foundation, but the Church.
We must remember that the New Testament did not exist for decades after the Resurrection of Jesus. And even when the Apostles started to write down the letters that we now consider to be Scripture, the faithful were reading all sorts of documents in their Masses. The Bishops in the 4th Century had to decide which of these circulating manuscripts were really Scripture and which were not.
So it was not until the 4th Century that the faithful really knew what constituted the New Testament. It was Catholic Bishops who decided this. One of the tests they applied to these manuscripts was whether or not the manuscript taught the faith that match when the Church was already teaching orally.
Bottomline: the Church did not come from the Bible, the Bible came from the Church and was a written form of what the Church had been teaching orally for hundreds of years. In fact, the New Testament is a Catholic document of the faith. It was written by Catholics, vetted by Catholics, and declared inerrant and infallible Scripture by Catholics.
So why does the Catholic Church think that this verse refers to the Catholic Church? Because the Catholic Church was the only Church at the time, and Jesus established His Church upon Peter as Prime Minister and thus the only true Church in the fullness of the faith is that church, that group of people, who are loyal and obedient to the successor of St. Peter, the Bishop of Rome, the Pope. This was ordained by God personally and no one has a right to contradict God
You need to remember first of all that at the time St. Paul wrote this there was only one Church – the Catholic Church. There was no such thing as a Christian that was not Catholic. So when St. Paul refers to the Church he is referring to the Catholic Church – the only church in existence. When we talks about the believers he is talking about fellow Catholics – the only kind of Christian in existence at the time. And, that Church was headed by the successor to St. Peter. It was a fellowship of believers under the leadership of the Bishop of Rome.
Here, St. Paul says the the Church, under the leadership of the Pope, is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Bible is not that pillar and foundation, but the Church.
We must remember that the New Testament did not exist for decades after the Resurrection of Jesus. And even when the Apostles started to write down the letters that we now consider to be Scripture, the faithful were reading all sorts of documents in their Masses. The Bishops in the 4th Century had to decide which of these circulating manuscripts were really Scripture and which were not.
So it was not until the 4th Century that the faithful really knew what constituted the New Testament. It was Catholic Bishops who decided this. One of the tests they applied to these manuscripts was whether or not the manuscript taught the faith that match when the Church was already teaching orally.
Bottomline: the Church did not come from the Bible, the Bible came from the Church and was a written form of what the Church had been teaching orally for hundreds of years. In fact, the New Testament is a Catholic document of the faith. It was written by Catholics, vetted by Catholics, and declared inerrant and infallible Scripture by Catholics.
So why does the Catholic Church think that this verse refers to the Catholic Church? Because the Catholic Church was the only Church at the time, and Jesus established His Church upon Peter as Prime Minister and thus the only true Church in the fullness of the faith is that church, that group of people, who are loyal and obedient to the successor of St. Peter, the Bishop of Rome, the Pope. This was ordained by God personally and no one has a right to contradict God
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zerinus
Guest
I accept both of your points. You are making valid arguments as far as you know it. LDS belief in the doctrine that Moses was taken to heaven without tasting death like Elijah, however, is derived from modern LDS scripture, which we consider to be as true and genuine as the Bible; and similar contradictions can also be found within the Bible. But Christians are not perturbed by that. They either try to find a way round the difficulty, or they assume that there is a missing piece of the puzzle there which if we knew the thing would fall into place. That is how I look at the (apparent) contradiction between the biblical passages you cited, and the LDS scripture that teaches that Moses was taken to heaven like Elijah. You see, from our point of view the Book of Mormon and other LDS scriptures are on exactly the same level as the Bible, therefore from our point of view that is a perfectly logical position to have. But I recognize that from your point of view it may not be so.
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Convert66
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The entirety of the Scriptures is “tradition” as in oral traditions written down after the fact (much after the fact in most cases).
Did Moses write the Torah? Where did he learn the geneaologies? Anyone worth their salt (another traditional saying having its basis in history) knows that the stories of Genesis were oral traditions passed down, otherwise how would Moses have known about Noah, Cain and Abel, etc.? In fact, those stories are in large part derived from much earlier Semitic traditions before Abraham was called by God. The sayings of Jesus were oral traditions that were later put down on parchment and several hundred years later codified into the New Testament as Gospels. St. Paul’s Christolgical hymn (Philipians)? Oral tradition!! Who codified them? The Catholic Church! Who rejected the gnostic interpretations and writings? The Catholic Church! What are protestants protesting? The Catholic Church! It has been their tradition for over 400 years now, and in that capacity they are merely the new kids on the block:dancing:
Read a history book, it’s all there for inquiring minds.
And I’d like to see the Church that “bible studies” Ist Chronicles “line by line . . .and verse by verse.”
:nunchuk:
Did Moses write the Torah? Where did he learn the geneaologies? Anyone worth their salt (another traditional saying having its basis in history) knows that the stories of Genesis were oral traditions passed down, otherwise how would Moses have known about Noah, Cain and Abel, etc.? In fact, those stories are in large part derived from much earlier Semitic traditions before Abraham was called by God. The sayings of Jesus were oral traditions that were later put down on parchment and several hundred years later codified into the New Testament as Gospels. St. Paul’s Christolgical hymn (Philipians)? Oral tradition!! Who codified them? The Catholic Church! Who rejected the gnostic interpretations and writings? The Catholic Church! What are protestants protesting? The Catholic Church! It has been their tradition for over 400 years now, and in that capacity they are merely the new kids on the block:dancing:
Read a history book, it’s all there for inquiring minds.
And I’d like to see the Church that “bible studies” Ist Chronicles “line by line . . .and verse by verse.”
:nunchuk:
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zerinus
Guest
Hey, not so fast! I am not “anti-Catholic,” and I was not aiming to be hostile to the Catholic Church. I was merely making a direct, point by point response to guanophore. I do, however, disagree theologically with the Catholic practice of praying to Mary or the Saints.
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1beleevr
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placido: I never said Jesus was a weak evangelist; now you are putting words in my mouth! And for some reason, you guys call the pope holy father, when he is not; that title is reserved for the Almighty Living God! And no, I did not abandon Matthew 28:19-20, but there are some who believe in it, but don’t practice it! I will pray for you, my mixed up friend:thumbsup: And, believe me, I am a babe when it comes to evangelism, always learning, ever loyal to the Saviour!
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Tanner9188
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Don’t feel bad; no one can answer the question. Like you; they all avoid the question altogether.
How are the JW’s much different from you; both claim extraneous revelation from a divine source IMO.
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Tanner9188
Guest
Maybe; just maybe the Holy Spirit…ya think?The entirety of the Scriptures is “tradition” as in oral traditions written down after the fact (much after the fact in most cases).
Did Moses write the Torah? Where did he learn the geneaologies? Anyone worth their salt (another traditional saying having its basis in history) knows that the stories of Genesis were oral traditions passed down, otherwise how would Moses have known about Noah, Cain and Abel, etc.? In fact, those stories are in large part derived from much earlier Semitic traditions before Abraham was called by God. The sayings of Jesus were oral traditions that were later put down on parchment and several hundred years later codified into the New Testament as Gospels. St. Paul’s Christolgical hymn (Philipians)? Oral tradition!! Who codified them? The Catholic Church! Who rejected the gnostic interpretations and writings? The Catholic Church! What are protestants protesting? The Catholic Church! It has been their tradition for over 400 years now, and in that capacity they are merely the new kids on the block:dancing:
Read a history book, it’s all there for inquiring minds.
And I’d like to see the Church that “bible studies” Ist Chronicles “line by line . . .and verse by verse.”
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Breynolds12
Guest
WHAT ??? DIDN
T I ANSWER The one about tradition our traditions are many, for me to list them ok tanner you win with stupidity, you are right in a way the mass is all Scriptural,there arnt any traditions in mass we read more of the Bible in one Mass then your preacher does in three weeks unless you belong to one of the churches that read a whole book and explain it all in 15 minutes, either way and as far as JW you are pulling more fluf out of your haed with that and I didn`t see any alter call theology where did that come from your own extraneous revelation
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Breynolds12
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More fluff Tanner that was the only thing you could say to that post, you know I think I actually insulted JWs when I said that your Methodology was like theirs they study there Bible it may be misguided but they study
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Tanner9188
Guest
**Lu 15:7 -
"I tell you that in the same way, there will be {more} joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Lu 15:10 -
“In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
This are part of two separate parables; there is no indication that the “saints” are rejoicing and it does not even say the angels are rejoicing; but somebody or bodies or rejoicing it appears. the point of the parables is the joy of heaven over a repentant sinner; joy over salvation.
I looked over both of these a few times and cannot conclude either way; because based on the parable their is indication that more than just God is rejoicing; although it does say in the presence of the angles. Saints are not mentioned or indicated; so I would conclude on the saints aspect that Scripture is silent on the question.
I do plan to look even more for indications in other parts of Scripture because Scripture will testify to itself. If I find anything different; then i will let you know.
My memory isn’t that good; at age of 81 you will probably have a little trouble as well…just kidding; I’m not 81.**
God bless!
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Convert66
Guest
Tanner,
I’ll grant that this could be the case, but would you admit that your convictions came from the Holy Spirit based upon nothing but a “flash of revelation” or did you have any thoughts on the subject of your faith prior to the Holy Spirit’s confirmation of them? Grace builds upon nature, so tradition (like Moses’ awareness of ANE oral traditions) serves as an “outline” of givens that the Holy Spirit then confirms or rejects. I do not know your faith tradition, but I am willing to bet you did not invent your own faith and it was present before you were born. The Bible is a collection of previously existing oral traditions. This is a simple and irrefutable fact. The Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church (and no other . . this is also an irrefutable fact) to canonize the writings based upon previously existing oral traditions into a single volume we call the Bible. So which came first? Scripture or Tradition? In simpler form, which came first, Jesus’ teachings and sayings or the four Gospels?
Also, what was your “religion” prior to your assent to the faith you now hold?
All my best . . .
I’ll grant that this could be the case, but would you admit that your convictions came from the Holy Spirit based upon nothing but a “flash of revelation” or did you have any thoughts on the subject of your faith prior to the Holy Spirit’s confirmation of them? Grace builds upon nature, so tradition (like Moses’ awareness of ANE oral traditions) serves as an “outline” of givens that the Holy Spirit then confirms or rejects. I do not know your faith tradition, but I am willing to bet you did not invent your own faith and it was present before you were born. The Bible is a collection of previously existing oral traditions. This is a simple and irrefutable fact. The Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church (and no other . . this is also an irrefutable fact) to canonize the writings based upon previously existing oral traditions into a single volume we call the Bible. So which came first? Scripture or Tradition? In simpler form, which came first, Jesus’ teachings and sayings or the four Gospels?
Also, what was your “religion” prior to your assent to the faith you now hold?
All my best . . .
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
Here are just a few of the many writings by Early Church Fathers
in support of keeping the traditions. Show me similar writings which say,
‘Do not keep the traditions’. Show me a mention of the protestant false
doctrine of Sola Scriptura…
Keeping the Tradition…
Polycrates, Letter to Victor of Rome 5:24:1. J190a
Irenaeus, Against Heresies 1:10:2, 2:9:1. J192,198,209
Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:3:2, J210-213,226,242,257
Irenaeus, Letter to Florinus 5:20:4. J264
Tertullian, Demurrer Against Heretics 19:3. J291-296,*298
Tertullian, The Veiling of Virgins 2:1. J328a,329
Tertullian, Against Marcion 4:5:1+. J341,371
Hippolytus, Against Heresy of Noetus 17. J394
Origen, Fundamental Doctrines 1
reface:2,4. J443,445,785Athanasius, Letters to Serapion 1:28. J782
Foebad of Agen, Against Arians 22. J898
Basil The Great, Transcript of Faith 125:3. J917
Basil The Great, The Holy Spirit 27:66. J954
Basil The Great, Faith 1. J972
Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius J1043
Epiphanius, Against All Heresies 61:6,73:34. J1098,1107
Chrysostom, On Romans 1:3. J1181
Chrysostom, On Second Thessalonians 4:2. J1213
Jerome, Dialogue between Luciferian & Christian 8. J1358
Augustine, Letter to Januarius 54:1:1,3. J1419,1419a
Augustine, Against Letter of Mani 5:6. J1581
Augustine, Baptism 2:7:12, 4:24:31. J1623,1631
Augustin, Literal Interpretation Genesis 10:23:39. J1705
Augustin, City of GOD 16:2:1. J1765
Augustin, Against Julian 1:7:30, 2:10:33. J1898-1900
Innocent I, Letter to Council of Carthage 29:1. J2015f
Theodoret of Cyr, Letter to Florentius 89. J2142
Vincent of Lerins, The Notebooks 2:1, 9:14. J2168,2169,
Vincent of Lerins, The Notebooks 20:25, 22:27. J2172-2175
Gregory I, Homilies on Ezechiel 2:4:12. J2329
Damascene, Homilies 10:18. J2390
The Jxxxx references are paragraph numbers for
“The Faith of the Early Fathers”, by William A. Jurgens.
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Tanner9188
Guest
**Where is the answer to the question in your post? I’m having difficulty seeing it:
What are those traditions Paul refers to and be very specific and provide proof of your answer and I encourage anyone to answer this question? Name one or two? What proof do you have that shows they already existed; since it is written in the past tense; they already were in effect.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught {PAST TENSE}, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us. **
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