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Tanner9188
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**That still does not answer the question in comparison to the JW’s; methodology…can you be a little more specific please?
What exactly are those traditions passed down from the apostles?
What verse(s) from Scripture are these traditions implied; implicitly or explicitly?**
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onenow1
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From onenow1 Almost forgot this.
QUOTE=Tanner9188;5518178]**Is that the Biblical Holy Spirit or the Catholic Holy Spirit? Just wondering because that statement cannot be shown from Scripture, but mine can.
Quote=onenow1This statement can be shown in scripture.THIS: THE COMMUNION: The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all mankind shall see the salvation of the Lord.
Here:Isaiah 40: 5, And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
Peace,and God Bless onenow1**
QUOTE=Tanner9188;5518178]**Is that the Biblical Holy Spirit or the Catholic Holy Spirit? Just wondering because that statement cannot be shown from Scripture, but mine can.
Quote=onenow1This statement can be shown in scripture.THIS: THE COMMUNION: The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all mankind shall see the salvation of the Lord.
Here:Isaiah 40: 5, And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
Peace,and God Bless onenow1**
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Bill_Pick
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Tanner You need to get you a church and start your own church the gosple according to Tanner believe you will get a lot of people to join look what Russell, Hinn,Jones,Jenkins, and many more you will be a good preacher
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zerinus
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Hi, guanophore. I just replied to one of your posts in the non-Catholic religions board; and then decided to do a bit of “stalking” to see what else you were talking about elsewhere!
I assume you are referring to the event at the Mount of Transfiguration. Jesus there was not “praying” to Moses and Elijah; but being the Son of God was able to summon them! Two different things. Furthermore: Moses and Elijah were not in fact dead! Elijah was taken to heaven without tasting death; and we (LDS) believe that Moses also had the same experience (although not mentioned in the Bible).
As for Saul talking to Samuel, that was actually a sin. It was done through a woman who had a “familiar spirit,” i.e. a soothsayer, which was a sin. Are you comparing the Catholic practice of praying to the Saints to Saul’s conjuring up the spirit of Samuel? If you are, then maybe you have a point. It could be that both of them are equally sinful!
Can you give references for that? I am not sure what you are referring to here.
“Communion of the Saints” is not the same thing as “praying to the dead”. There is no such doctrine taught in the scriptures.
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placido
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I did “intentionally” in the sense that I quoted only the part I wanted to respond to. By quoting only that part I was trying to draw your attention to that specciffic part in your statement. But if it causes inconvenience and confusion, I will avoid that method in future.
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placido
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You tell me bacause you brought up the demons … any way, why are you so determined in talking about demons when we are talking about heaven and angels?**Sometimes better to post verbatim…“In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Misspelling of presence…sorry**
And you know that the translation you are using is not the only one. In the NAB, the KJV and the NIV, the text indicates happiness of the whole population of heaven, not only God:
“I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.” (NAB)
“I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.” (KJV)
“I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.” (NIV)
Tanner9188;5518092:
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Tanner9188
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**
“Cloud of witnesses” Hebrews 12:1
Hebrews 11; the heroes of the faith that proved perseverance of saints as a testimony or witness to the Jews in Chapter 12.
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain,
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death
By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed…By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise…by faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive
Summary: All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
By faith Abraham, when he was tested
By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau
By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph
By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents
By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to endure ill-treatment
By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king
By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood
By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down
By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient
Summary: And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us.
]That is the last verse in chapter 11, then the first verse in chapter 12
What is the therefore there for in verse 1 of chapter 12? It always go back to what was just written and explained before the “therefore”. Therefore; what is the “cloud of witnesses” the writer is referring to? All the examples of faith and endurance of those mentioned in the whole of chapter 11…right James?..right Elvis?..right br2?..right guanaphore?..right to the rest?
This is all about the faith, which the grace God’s gives to strengthen the saints to persevere to the end as an example to all who have faith in God.**
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heiscominginthe
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The Holy Spirit is like a river of truth, accessible to all who believe. Born again believers are what the Holy Spirit works through to get God’s message unto the world. The less we become of ourselves, the more God works through us.
Unfortunately, we are always putting up barriers between ourselves and God though our doubting of his word or our applying our own interpretations, not God’s. No man is perfect and all sin. We often times put barriers up in many different areas of our spiritual walk which can stunt our spiritual growth.
We must be led of the spirit, walk in the spirit always, remembering always that our enemy the devil is seeking to destroy us though lies and deception.
As for teaching, if it comes from the man, it can be debunked. If it comes from God, it is eternal.
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Tanner9188
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Hi, guanophore. I just replied to one of your posts in the non-Catholic religions board; and then decided to do a bit of “stalking” to see what else you were talking about elsewhere!
I assume you are referring to the event at the Mount of Transfiguration. Jesus there was not “praying” to Moses and Elijah; but being the Son of God was able to summon them! Two different things. Furthermore: Moses and Elijah were not in fact dead! Elijah was taken to heaven without tasting death; and we (LDS) believe that Moses also had the same experience (although not mentioned in the Bible).
Deuteronomy 34:5-8 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day. Although Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died, his eye was not dim, nor his vigor abated. So the sons of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping {and} mourning for Moses came to an end.
You or your church would have to impose upon the text of Scripture and deny what God, Himself, said in order to maintain that believe that Moses was just taken up.
**100% Correct on this.As for Saul talking to Samuel, that was actually a sin. It was done through a woman who had a “familiar spirit,” i.e. a soothsayer, which was a sin. Are you comparing the Catholic practice of praying to the Saints to Saul’s conjuring up the spirit of Samuel? If you are, then maybe you have a point. It could be that both of them are equally sinful!
1 Samuel 28 Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at En-dor.”
Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, “Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name to you.” 9 But the woman said to him, “Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who are mediums and spiritists from the land. Why are you then laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?” Saul vowed to her by the LORD, saying, “As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.” The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.
Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.” Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has departed from you and has become your adversary?
Leviticus 19:31 'Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 20:6 'As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.
2 Kings 21:6 He made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD provoking {Him to anger.}
2 Chronicles 33:6 He made his sons pass through the fire in the valley of Ben-hinnom; and he practiced witchcraft, used divination, practiced sorcery and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him {to anger.}
Isaiah 8:19 When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? {Should they} {consult} the dead on behalf of the living? What is the implied answer about consulting with the dead on behalf of the living on earth? NO NO NO NO NO!!! WARNING WARNING WARNING…DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER
Here is the result for those that chose not to heed to the WARNING
Isaiah 19:3 And I will confound their strategy, So that they will resort to idols and ghosts of the dead And to mediums and spiritists.**
“Communion of the Saints” is not the same thing as “praying to the dead”. There is no such doctrine taught in the scriptures.
100% correct!!
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Tanner9188
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Well said!
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Tanner9188
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Is there a point here? We all know there are different version of the English Bible; but that can’t be your point is it?
I know the answer, but I wanted your thought-no big deal you do not need to answer; I’ll not mention it again.
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Tanner9188
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**Hi bill,
I’ll be glad to send you a free copy of “The Gospel According to Jesus” and if you would like I can include “The Gospel According to the Apostles” as a bonus at no charge to you. The Author is John MacArthur and they will both enlighten you to the gospel from Jesus and the apostles perspectives. I have read both of them and it is all Biblically based and very informative. I could probably call grace To You and they may even give me free copies to send directly to you. If nothing else; it could arm you to better defend your faith because then you would have great insights to where true believers come from in light of Scripture.
Just send me a PM with your details and I will get them to you right away.
If you like; you could send me something; like maybe from Ludwig Ott or some other prominent Catholic writer.
God bless you this day; Tanner**
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Breynolds12
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this is 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 15 nab
15So then, brethren, (AK)stand firm and (AL)hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether (AM)by word of mouth or (AN)by letter from us. …its not any Scripture your Preacher will preach on… I was going to give you the year the Canon was put together but maybe I`ll let you research it and know how long the Catholic church was around before they put the 72 books together in one Canon, and JW twist the bible and they have one verse answers that are taken out of contents and their interpreters where 4 people who collectively only had 6 months of Biblical Hebrew between them, Some of my Family is jw so I have researched them to find there meaning, mostly a sales force for the top of the chain in that cult,
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Tanner9188
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Tanner9188
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elvisman
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This is complete nonsense.Hi, guanophore. I just replied to one of your posts in the non-Catholic religions board; and then decided to do a bit of “stalking” to see what else you were talking about elsewhere!
I assume you are referring to the event at the Mount of Transfiguration. Jesus there was not “praying” to Moses and Elijah; but being the Son of God was able to summon them! Two different things. Furthermore: Moses and Elijah were not in fact dead! Elijah was taken to heaven without tasting death; and we (LDS) believe that Moses also had the same experience (although not mentioned in the Bible).
As for Saul talking to Samuel, that was actually a sin. It was done through a woman who had a “familiar spirit,” i.e. a soothsayer, which was a sin. Are you comparing the Catholic practice of praying to the Saints to Saul’s conjuring up the spirit of Samuel? If you are, then maybe you have a point. It could be that both of them are equally sinful!
Can you give references for that? I am not sure what you are referring to here.
“Communion of the Saints” is not the same thing as “praying to the dead”. There is no such doctrine taught in the scriptures.
Catholics aren’t conjuring up the dead or seeking oracles from them - as is forbidden (Deut. 18:10). We are not employing the help of soothsayers or mediums. Prayer in this sense is merely a request or plea for prayer from those in heaven just as we would ask a fellow Christian here on earth to pray for us. It has nothing to do with worship, seeking information from or divination of the dead. I would have thought that a person of your apparent intelligence would know the difference. The only difference is - that many of you seem to think that those in heaven can’t see or hear us - even though the Scriptures say the exact opposite (Luke 16:19-31, Heb. 12:1).
**Don’t ANY of you anti-Catholics ever crack open a dictionary or thesaurus before making such unfounded and ignorant claims? There are various forms of prayer, including worhip and adoration, confession, supplication, gratitude, etc. Most of these are reserved for God alone, but prayers (pleas) for help can be made to a living person by walking up to them and asking them to prayer for you. THAT, my ignorant frind, is prayer. **
Asking for your help with a trivia quiz is prayer. Requesting something from the menu at a restaurant is prayer. Are these things “evil” and “forbidden”?
Give me a break - you guys are playing games here - semantics.
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Bill_Pick
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TquoteT just cheching to see if it works
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heiscominginthe
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zerinus;5518562]Hi, guanophore. I just replied to one of your posts in the non-Catholic religions board; and then decided to do a bit of “stalking” to see what else you were talking about elsewhere!
As for Saul talking to Samuel, that was actually a sin. It was done through a woman who had a “familiar spirit,” i.e. a soothsayer, which was a sin. Are you comparing the Catholic practice of praying to the Saints to Saul’s conjuring up the spirit of Samuel? If you are, then maybe you have a point. It could be that both of them are equally sinful!
As for Saul using the soothsayer to conjure up Samuel, this indeed was a sin. Yet, none the less, God permitted the soul of Samuel to appear to Saul. It was not a familiar spirit. If you read earlier scripture, God told Samuel, who was lamenting over Saul, that he would not see Saul again until the say Saul would die. On the day Saul conjured up Samuel, Samuel told Saul he was going to die and would be with him, thus fulfilling earlier scripture.
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Tanner9188
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You somewhat answered the first question and alluded to the second question:
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us.
I ask again? What are those traditions Paul refers to and be very specific and provide proof of your answer and I encourage anyone to answer this question.
Our Pastor teaches verse by verse through each book of the Bible; which use to be the norm and has faded away. Our Bible study also goes verse by verse as well. just FYI
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