Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[placido]

placido: You really shouldn’t resort to condescencion and paranoia; they don’t look good on you!

Non-catholics come here for two main reasons: 1) to ask questions, learn and share ideas, or 2) to try and prove the Catholic Church wrong.
It is now clear you fall in the second category … no “condescencion and paranoia” about that.

The reason I have never evangelized or witnessed with catholics, is because they haven’t yet come out. I have invited many of catholic friends,(surprised that I have so many catholic friends?) to join us in working with Jesus Shack, doing outreaches, and street ministry, but to no avail!:

Having Catholic friends does not play a role in determining whether one is anti-catholic or not. You may even have atheist, muslim and pagan friends.
So, you “invited them” to come to your ministry not the other way round …
You see, that is what I mean when I say anti-catholics are out to “invite their Catholic friends” out of the Church.

( I’m not sure where you got the idea, that I, 1beleevr was trying to empty your church and bring the to mine! Our goal as Christians should be to fill the Kingdom, not seats in the sanctuary! And I like catholics, they’re ahoot!

Of course you won’t say it loud, but we can see you came here to prove the Catholic church wrong. And if you succeeded in proving the Church wrong people would leave and join you in your Jesus Shack ministry.
That, my brother, is an attempt to empty the Church of its members …

placido

 

[guanophore]

**How did you receive the Holy Spirit in your teaching; water baptism?  Anyone who denies the Trinity is not a true disciple of Christ; easily discernible.**

I asked you what standard should be used to determine who is correct. First, you asked me for my experience, then you offered your own. Therefore, should I assume that your standard for discerning truth is a person personal experience? How is this “easily discernable”? He seems to believe that he has the “unction of the Holy Spirit”. He believes his doctrine is also “easily discernable”. Which one of you is right?

Correct, some people can teach; and the Scripture is the Living Word and does teach, part of what makes it supernatural.

No, Tanner. Books do not teach. Teaching is an activity that is only done by persons. People that think they are being taugth by the book are actually teaching themselves, or are getting the teachings from another source, but don’t realize it.
Tanner9188;5516714:

It is God breathed and therefore alive and will endure forever; just as it is written.

It is certainly inerrant, and inspired. The Church is God breathed also, and will endure until the end.

The problem is you prove your low or perhaps distorted view of Scripture; especially in light of your Catholic teaching IMO.

My refusal to assign qualities to scripture it does not posess does not mean my view is “low”. I have not made an idol out of my bible.

You may regret one day ever posting such nonsense concerning the the Word of God. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” Serious issue there; very scary, makes me tremble to think about what God thinks of that now that I highlighted and thought about it.
Wouldn’t want to be in those shoes.

You have just illustrated my point. You have confused the written word with the Person of Christ. Technically speaking, this cannot be considered idolatry, because idolatry has to be intentional, and you clearly cannot perceive the difference between the Holy Writing and the Person of Christ.

 

[placido]

**Trust me, none of the saints in heaven, nor Mary of the Bible, can hear any of your prayers. **

Really? And where did you get that information from?
Tanner9188;5513022:

God often turns His ear away from those that are in unbelief. Just like I cannot hear you speak from where I’m at, nor can you hear me.

So, like where you are, heaven is no longer a state but a far way place … but where exactly is that far away place, called heaven, located?

They are quite content praising and worshiping God in heaven; you are of no concern to them; they don’t know you.

Ok, but why is there great joy in heaven every time a sinner (on earth) repents? Seems we of concern to them. The alternative is having God telling them to stop worshipping Him for a moment and calling a mass rally to break the news …

placido

 

[placido]

** Incense was a normal part of the OT, not NT, ritual. Priest stood twice daily before the inner veil of the temple and burned incense so the smoke would carry into the Holy of Holies and then reach into the nostrils of God. That SYMBOLIZED the peoples prayers rising up to God. These prayers in this verse REPRESENTS or SYMBOLIZES all the prayers that the redeemed have ever prayed concerning final redemption.**

“Symbolized”, “represents”, “symbolizes” … that is your interpretation, but you can rest assured: yours is not the only interpretation.

**Parable; not real characters to make a spiritual point; **

In other words, Jesus was just wasting His time, not making a spiritual point. WOW!
Tanner9188;5515207:

**Or not to understand what Scripture teaches, which is surely the case here IMO; **

Yes, that is your humble opinion and your humble opinion is not above other people’s opinions, right?

you must have the Holy Spirit to understand the Scriptures; He is the resident Truth-Teacher.

So many do claim to have the Holy Spirit, yet they disagree in their interpretation of Scripture … it is like saying “blame the Holy Spirit for the confusion”.

placido

 

[placido]

**How did you receive the Holy Spirit in your teaching; water baptism? Anyone who denies the Trinity is not a true disciple of Christ; easily discernible. **

Those who deny the Trinity would say the same about you … what then?
Tanner9188;5516714:

**Correct, some people can teach; and the Scripture is the Living Word and does teach, part of what makes it supernatural. It is God breathed and therefore alive and will endure forever; just as it is written. The problem is you prove your low or perhaps distorted view of Scripture; especially in light of your Catholic teaching IMO. You may regret one day ever posting such nonsense concerning the the Word of God. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” **

Are you sure John 1:1 is talking about Scripture? In other words, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was Scripture” … “and Scripture became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14).
You have taken private interpretation of Scripture to a ludicrous extreme.

Serious issue there; very scary, makes me tremble to think about what God thinks of that now that I highlighted and thought about it.
Wouldn’t want to be in those shoes.

Scary indeed!!!

placido

 

[Tanner9188]

Non-catholics come here for two main reasons: 1) to ask questions, learn and share ideas, or 2) to try and prove the Catholic Church wrong.
It is now clear you fall in the second category … no “condescencion and paranoia” about that.

Having Catholic friends does not play a role in determining whether one is anti-catholic or not. You may even have atheist, muslim and pagan friends.
So, you “invited them” to come to your ministry not the other way round …
You see, that is what I mean when I say anti-catholics are out to “invite their Catholic friends” out of the Church.

Of course you won’t say it loud, but we can see you came here to prove the Catholic church wrong. And if you succeeded in proving the Church wrong people would leave and join you in your Jesus Shack ministry.
That, my brother, is an attempt to empty the Church of its members …

placido

**In light of Scripture and history, that is not too hard to do. But for myself, I am here for three reasons 1) to learn about the Catholic mind and 2) share the gospel in spirit and truth & 3) get a better grasp on my relatives who are Catholic current and former and the differences in between their thinking. For example my mother is a former Catholic, but has some residual effects; while my aunts of are of Vat II and an Uncle that is Latin only and rejects Vat II, which I am beginning to understand where he comes from and where my aunts comes from.

I know you were not speaking to me, but thought it was worth mentioning because I do not meet you preconceived notions IMO.**

 

[Tanner9188]

I asked you what standard should be used to determine who is correct. First, you asked me for my experience, then you offered your own. Therefore, should I assume that your standard for discerning truth is a person personal experience? How is this “easily discernable”? He seems to believe that he has the “unction of the Holy Spirit”. He believes his doctrine is also “easily discernable”. Which one of you is right?

I did answer the question in previous posts, but if you do not or can not answer the question, then that is okay to.

To deny the Trinity is to deny the essence’s of God character, which to do that means you have no relationship, but are self deceived. The important thing is if God knows them and He obviously doesn’t because He reveals Himself through His Word. Or in you case through your Church.
Jesus claimed to be God in numerous places in Scripture and we are commanded to be baptized in the Name (singular) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - I was taught that by Scripture, because Jesus is the Living Word, the Bible is the Word which speaks of and about Jesus and His offer of Salvation known as the Gospel and is sharper than any two-edged sword. To say it is an ordinary book in the sense that it cannot teach is stupid IMO.

No, Tanner. Books do not teach. Teaching is an activity that is only done by persons. People that think they are being taugth by the book are actually teaching themselves, or are getting the teachings from another source, but don’t realize it.
It is certainly inerrant, and inspired. The Church is God breathed also, and will endure until the end.

Is the Bible God breathed? Is anything that is god breahted, like yourself, for example alive?

My refusal to assign qualities to scripture it does not posess does not mean my view is “low”. I have not made an idol out of my bible.

No comment.

You have just illustrated my point. You have confused the written word with the Person of Christ. Technically speaking, this cannot be considered idolatry, because idolatry has to be intentional, and you clearly cannot perceive the difference between the Holy Writing and the Person of Christ.

Since it is the very voice of God; go ahead and call me idolatress towards God; it would be an honor.

 

[Tanner9188]

Really? And where did you get that information from?

So, like where you are, heaven is no longer a state but a far way place … but where exactly is that far away place, called heaven, located?

No one knows; but I can’t wait to find out. Do you believe the demons can hear your thoughts?

Ok, but why is there great joy in heaven every time a sinner (on earth) repents? Seems we of concern to them. The alternative is having God telling them to stop worshipping Him for a moment and calling a mass rally to break the news …

placido

You are referring to Luke 15, it is god himself that is joyful in the presents of His Holy angles; look at the passage for what it says only. To say more is imposing on the text.

 

[Tanner9188]

“Symbolized”, “represents”, “symbolizes” … that is your interpretation, but you can rest assured: yours is not the only interpretation.

** Lets hear your take on it, should be entertaining to see how you turn incense into words and prayers. this is so obvious and basic, but I would love to hear your thoughts.**

In other words, Jesus was just wasting His time, not making a spiritual point. WOW!

** Is that what I said or did i give an explanation and you decided to cut what I said to make no point; do you do the same to Scripture and to other people?
**

Yes, that is your humble opinion and your humble opinion is not above other people’s opinions, right?

If that opinion is truth, then it always stands above what is not true…right?

So many do claim to have the Holy Spirit, yet they disagree in their interpretation of Scripture … it is like saying “blame the Holy Spirit for the confusion”.

placido

Does that surprise you in light of what Scripture teaches? you can claim all you want and many do, but only a few have the Resident Truth Teacher; just as Scripture teaches.

 

[brb2]

**

I am here for three reasons 1) to learn about the Catholic mind and 2) share the gospel in spirit and truth & 3) get a better grasp on my relatives who are Catholic current and former and the differences in between their thinking.

.**

Tanner …

Its one thing to ask questions of Catholics … if you really desire to learn. Its another to be disrespectful. Christ taught “he who is w/o sin, cast the first stone”.

Not all Catholics fully understand their faith and can explain its dogmas to you. None of us here have perfect 100 % correct answers. Does this mean we are not legit Christians ? We are all sinners, and have deficiencies. Don’t expect perfection among Catholics. Rather, look for sincerity, a passion for Christ, a love for his Church, and desire to help others to know him.

But, collectively, we can come to a consensus and resolve our disputes correctly. Christ desired teamwork from his followers. Obedience to him, and fellowship among the elect.
You & I will never be able to read the scriptures correctly, w/o the help of the Church which is guided inerrantly by the H.S. / regarding faith & morals.

When there are discrepancies/disagreements among believers … Christ taught us to “Take it to the Church”. The Church is the final arbiter.

 

[Tanner9188]

Those who deny the Trinity would say the same about you … what then?

** I do not concern myself about what other people think concerning my relationship with God; it is not a contest; it is serious business to get it correct.**

Are you sure John 1:1 is talking about Scripture? In other words, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was Scripture” … “and Scripture became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14).
You have taken private interpretation of Scripture to a ludicrous extreme.
Scary indeed!!!

placido

**It is not the fullness of Christ, the Scripture, but it is His very word and the Bible clearly teaches this through the Apostles. **

 

[Tanner9188]

Tanner …
Its one thing to ask questions of Catholics … if you really desire to learn. Its another to be disrespectful. Christ taught “he who is w/o sin, cast the first stone”.

** I am very respectful of Catholics and make a point to be; despite the insults and false accusations thrown at me.**

Not all Catholics fully understand their faith and can explain its dogmas to you. None of us here have perfect 100 % correct answers. Does this mean we are not legit Christians ? We are all sinners, and have deficiencies. Don’t expect perfection among Catholics. Rather, look for sincerity, a passion for Christ, a love for his Church, and desire to help others to know him.

But, collectively, we can come to a consensus and resolve our disputes correctly. Christ desired teamwork from his followers. Obedience to him, and fellowship among the elect.
You & I will never be able to read the scriptures correctly, w/o the help of the Church which is guided inerrantly by the H.S. / regarding faith & morals. **That is a complete fallacy and not Biblical; the part highlighted in red is what I am referring to. No where in Scripture does it say the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and is able to inerrantly interpret Scripture in regards to anything. **

1 Timothy 3:15 "I am writing these things to you {GROUP OF INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS}, hoping to come to you before long; but in case I am delayed, {I write} so that you will know how one {INDIVIDUAL} ought to conduct himself {INDIVIDUAL} in the household {GROUP OF INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS} of God, which is the church of the living God {ALL BELIEVERS THROUGHOUT THE AGES}, the pillar and support of the truth."

But a natural man {INDIVIDUAL} does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him {INDIVIDUAL}; and he {INDIVIDUAL} cannot understand them, because they{AS A WHOLE} are spiritually appraised. But he {INDIVIDUAL} who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he {INDIVIDUAL}himself is appraised by no one{INDIVIDUAL}. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we {EACH IN THE GROUP OF BELIEVERS} have the mind of Christ.

“But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.”

"The woman *said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am {He.}” - * Did this woman assume that she would understand what the Messiah would tell? Yes. Jesus confirms that He is the one to fulfill that; then He stayed for a while there in Samaria.

but just as it is written, “THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND {which} HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.” For to us *God revealed {them} through the Spirit {PAUL TO A GROUP OF INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS} *; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the {thoughts} of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the {thoughts} of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the *Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
*
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone {INDIVIDUAL} does not have the Spirit of Christ, he {INDIVIDUAL} does not belong to Him.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone {INDIVIDUAL} does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

If any of you lacks wisdom, he [INDIVIDUAL} should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him* {INDIVIDUAL BELIEVER}*

Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love,for I have put my trust in you.
Show me {INDIVIDUAL} the way I should go, for to you I lift up my soul

guide me {INDIVIDUAL} in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long
.
I can go on and on and the lessons are to individuals and/or groups of individuals, which are the royal priesthood of believers; the pillar of truth and support of the church of Jesus Christ. Notice it is God that gives understanding to the believer; it is God who leads one to truth. There are even more direct quotes I could have used concerning the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer concerning His work as the resident Truth-Teacher.

Now for the real question; is Scripture correct or is your statement correct; both cannot be correct because their is one absolute truth in this regard. What say you?

When there are discrepancies/disagreements among believers … Christ taught us to “Take it to the Church”. The Church is the final arbiter.

Within the local and visible Body only.

 

[onenow1]

** **It is not the fullness of Christ, the Scripture, but it is His very word and the Bible clearly teaches this through the Apostles. ****

HI, Taner.

Indeed it is His word ! BUT ! If it’s not the fulness of Christ, then something must be missing right ?
Could it be His Church ? 1 Timothy 3: 15, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the HOUSEHOLD of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR and BULWARK of the TRUTH.

16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our RELIGION: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Acts 9: 4, And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?”

5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting;

Peace, and God Bless onenow1

 

[Tanner9188]

HI, Taner.

Indeed it is His word ! BUT ! If it’s not the fulness of Christ, then something must be missing right ?
Could it be His Church ? 1 Timothy 3: 15, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the HOUSEHOLD of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR and BULWARK of the TRUTH.

16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our RELIGION: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Acts 9: 4, And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?”

5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting;

Peace, and God Bless onenow1

Nope! The fullness of Christ won’t be revealed till we are Glorified by Christ Himself, then will see Him as He is and be made like Him…isn’t that wonderful to dwell on, yet incomprehensible at the same time? Although the fullness of Christ dwells in the believer via the Holy Spirit, who is the fullness of Christ.

 

[Tanner9188]

HI, Taner.

Indeed it is His word ! BUT ! If it’s not the fulness of Christ, then something must be missing right ?
Could it be His Church ? 1 Timothy 3: 15, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the HOUSEHOLD of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR and BULWARK of the TRUTH.

16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our RELIGION: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Acts 9: 4, And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?”

5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting;

Peace, and God Bless onenow1

**1 Tim3:16 "By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

eusebeia is not a term used for the church as you just inserted into Scripture; thus changing the contextual meaning. ekklēsia is the term used for church.**

 

[placido]

**In light of Scripture and history, that is not too hard to do. But for myself, I am here for three reasons **

An those are …
Tanner9188;5517214:

1. to learn about the Catholic mind

If your posts are anything to go by, what you have been doing here is the most strange way of “leraning” I have ever seen.

1. share the gospel in spirit and truth

In a layman language, you are here to evangelize Catholics.

1. get a better grasp on my relatives who are Catholic current and former and the differences in between their thinking. For example my mother is a former Catholic, but has some residual effects; while my aunts of are of Vat II and an Uncle that is Latin only and rejects Vat II, which I am beginning to understand where he comes from and where my aunts comes from.

Reading official Church documents would have helped you to understand better rather than trying to figure out what the Church teaches by looking at differend understandings of indivivual Catholics or former Catholics (mother, aunts etc).

placido

 

[placido]

No one knows; but I can’t wait to find out. Do you believe the demons can hear your thoughts?

Please don’t bring in the demons - we are talking about heaven.

You are referring to Luke 15, it is god himself that is joyful in the presents of His Holy angles; look at the passage for what it says only. To say more is imposing on the text.

Saying “it is god himself that is joyful in the presents (sic) of His angles (sic)” is adding to Scripture my dear. You know that what you said above does not appear in Luke 15. That is your opinion and you know that your opinion is not Scripture.

placido

 

[placido]

** Lets hear your take on it, should be entertaining to see how you turn incense into words and prayers. **

Tanner, you seem to be doubting God’s omnipotence. He can turn His Word into flesh (John 1:14), yet He is apparently unable to turn incense into words and prayers …
Tanner9188;5517261:

this is so obvious and basic, but I would love to hear your thoughts.

If it is “obvious and basic” then your interpretation is not needed.

** Is that what I said or did i give an explanation and you decided to cut what I said to make no point; do you do the same to Scripture and to other people? **

You said the characters in Jesus’ parable were not real “to make a spiritual point” – that means jesus was wasting His time telling that parable.
Tanner9188;5517261:

If that opinion is truth, then it always stands above what is not true…right?

But what makes your opinion the truth and not mine? Who decides?

Does that surprise you in light of what Scripture teaches? you can claim all you want and many do, but only a few have the Resident Truth Teacher; just as Scripture teaches.

Fine. You claim to have the “Resident Truth Teacher” and many others (who disagree with you) make similar claims. Why should I believe you and not them? What criteria do you use to identify those “few” and who appointed you?
Tanner, you will never provide me with a satisfactory answer to those “few” questions.

placido

 

[placido]

** I do not concern myself about what other people think … **

Tanner, you are making confusing statements. A few posts ago you told me you are here to learn or understand the “Catholic mind”, but now you tell me you don’t care what other people do with their minds (think).
Tanner9188;5517291:

**It is not the fullness of Christ, the Scripture, but it is His very word and the Bible clearly teaches this through the Apostles. **

Pardon me, but I don’t understand that.

placido

 

[elvisman]

These golden and wide-mouthed saucers were common in the tabernacle and temple. Incense was a normal part of the OT, not NT, ritual. Priest stood twice daily before the inner veil of the temple and burned incense so the smoke would carry into the Holy of Holies and then reach into the nostrils of God. That SYMBOLIZED the peoples prayers rising up to God. These prayers in this verse REPRESENTS or SYMBOLIZES all the prayers that the redeemed have ever prayed concerning final redemption.

Again - READ the text. are these symbolic censors with prayers going directly to God?
**NOPE - they are being brought to him via those in heaven. **
You read, but you fail to understand. I pray God reveals this to you someday.

Parable; not real characters to make a spiritual point; not that we can talk to the dead either; but rather He was speaking to the Pharisees to make a point to them about they perceived as the poor beggar shows, which in their eyes showed disfavor with God; where the rich show they were in favor with God; the point is that it is the opposite of how God views things. For a real life example; see Luke 18 and the Publican and Pharisee. This is the only parable Jesus taught that used a specific name; nothing more or less.

WORST cop-out yet.
Jesus didn’t teach in half-truths - only the TRUTH. If you believe that he did - then you still haven’t placed all of your trust in him.
Again - living in denial won’t be an excuse before the Throne of Judgement, my prideful friend.

The writer says, ‘Since we have so great a cloud of witness surrounding us.’ Our proof lies in the examples of Moses, Abraham, David, and all the other men and women written in Hebrews 11. You know little to nothing concerning Scripture; and worse you believe you do. Sad; very sad, breaks my heart to see such spiritual pride and so very little knowledge.

Or not to understand what Scripture teaches, which is surely the case here IMO; you must have the Holy Spirit to understand the Scriptures; He is the resident Truth-Teacher.

Here again - you deny the scriptures. The Scriptures aren’t half-truths. the Word of God can ONLY be the truth, the WHOLE truth and nothing BUT the truth.