Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[elvisman]

elvisman: Before it gets tedious, or out of hand, I think we should nip this anti whatever we each are, or are not in the bud! If I were truly anti-catholic, as you claim, I wouldn’t even talk to them, let alone join a catholic forum I have worked with them, had them do ork for me, ate with them, paried with them; in fact the only thing I haven’t done with them is witness or evangelize! I must say that I am duly impressed by your knowledge of scripture, even though some of them had nothing to do with intercessory prayerAnd I don’t ever remember saying that I didn’t believe in intercessory prayer, in fact, I am a member of several intercessory prayer teamsWhat I said, was, I did not feel the NEED to pray through the saints, or Mary! I have the greatest mediator through which I can reach the Father. You may know Him, his Name is Jesus! He talks to me everyday, and I talk to Him everyday, Yippee! In the verses you quoted, they were all requests for people to pray for each other, which is what we do. I am also not telling anyone that they can’t pray through Mary and the saints; how could I stop you? This reminds me of last September, when I was doing Street Ministry, through an organization called Jesus Shack. I knocked on this one door, and was having a rather pleasant talk with a very nice man. I asked him if I could pray with him. He said, “I’m a catholic, and I don’t need your prayers, thank you!” He did take a couple of food boxes to give to someone he knew who was in need. So, I will ask someone to pray for me, and all believers are part of the Body of Christ. Your previous pope, John Paul II said that, “all men could be saved.”, even us Gentiles:thumbsup:And I was floating an idea about how when you receive the Holy Spirit, a seed is planted in you, and begins to grow, much like a baby. You continue to grow, until you grow up; don’t believe anyone is born all growed up.And what exactly happens at confirmation, and what Biblical references do you use during the ceremony?1 Thess 5:21. God bless you, my brother in Christ:thumbsup:

Again - you just don’t seem to get it.
Jesus is our only mediator because only his sacrifice before the father can save us. What you fail to grasp is that we are ALL mediators for eath other and that is supported by the Scriptures I have shown you.

So, I will ask you one last time:
1. Do you believe that the Body of Christ includes those fellow Christians who have left this world?

2. Do you believe they can see and/or hear us or are they merely “dead”?

If you say that they are not part of the Body of Christ - you reject the Scriptures (1 Cor. 12:12-31).
If you say they can’t hear or see us - you reject the Scriptures (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36, Hebrews 12:10).

I eagerly await your answers to these 2 questions.
No dancing around the issue, please.

 

[Tanner9188]

Jesus Christ is our only ‘mediator’ as stated by St. Paul. Non-Catholics like to point out this verse to Catholics (out of context of course), as they mistakenly perceive that we ‘mediate’ through His mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. Nothing could be further from the truth.
‘Mediator’, as defined by the dictionary, the first meaning, is: ‘One who works to resolve or settle differences by working with all the conflicting parties’.

The ‘conflicting parties’ in this case, are of course, GOD, and mankind. Jesus Christ did indeed act as mediator by suffering and dying for us.

**
The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips.

**“Who is always vigilant to intercede with the king whom she bore.” Benedict XIV declared the same thing in his Apostolic Letter Gloriosae Dominae, in which Mary is called “Queen of heaven and earth,” and it is stated that the sovereign King has in some way communicated to her his ruling power.

For from her union with Christ she attains a radiant eminence transcending that of any other creature; from her union with Christ she receives the royal right to dispose of the treasures of the Divine Redeemer’s Kingdom; from her union with Christ finally is derived the inexhaustible efficacy of *her maternal intercession before the Son and His Father. *

Pius IX, "does she approach the problem of our salvation, and is solicitous for the whole human race; made Queen of heaven and earth by the Lord, exalted above all choirs of angels and saints, and standing at the right hand of her only a Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she intercedes powerfully for us with a mother’s prayers, obtains what she seeks, and cannot be refused."

Likewise, it can be said that the heavenly voice of the Archangel Gabriel was the first to proclaim Mary’s royal office.**

---

**As to Mary’s virginity after her childbirth, *it is not denied by St. Matthew’s expressions “before they came together” (1:18), “her firstborn son” (1:25), nor by the fact that the New Testament books repeatedly refer to the “brothers of Jesus”. *[66] The words “before they came together” mean probably, “before they lived in the same house”, referring to the time when they were merely betrothed; but even if the words be understood of marital intercourse, they only state that the Incarnation took place before any such intercourse had intervened, without implying that it did occur after the Incarnation of the Son of God. [67]

The same must be said of the expression, “and he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son” (Matthew 1:25); the Evangelist tells us what did not happen before the birth of Jesus, without suggesting that it happened after his birth. [68] The name “firstborn” applies to Jesus whether his mother remained a virgin or gave birth to other children after Jesus; among the Jews it was a legal name [69], so* that its occurrence in the Gospel cannot astonish us.*

Finally, the “brothers of Jesus” are neither the sons of Mary, nor the brothers of Our Lord in the proper sense of the word, but they are His cousins or the more or less near relatives. [70] The Church insists that in His birth the Son of God did not lessen but consecrate the virginal integrity of His mother (Secret in Mass of Purification). The Fathers express themselves in similar language concerning this privilege of Mary. [71]

More like NOT. LOL "mean probably"
Can anyone here see?**

 

[elvisman]

The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that *Mary took as our co-Redemptress *comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips.

"Who is always vigilant to intercede with the king whom she bore." Benedict XIV declared the same thing in his Apostolic Letter Gloriosae Dominae, in which Mary is called “Queen of heaven and earth,” and it is stated that the sovereign King has in some way communicated to her his ruling power.

For from her union with Christ she attains a radiant eminence transcending that of any other creature; from her union with Christ she receives the royal right to dispose of the treasures of the Divine Redeemer’s Kingdom; from her union with Christ finally is derived the inexhaustible efficacy of *her maternal intercession before the Son and His Father. *

Pius IX, "does she approach the problem of our salvation, and is solicitous for the whole human race; made Queen of heaven and earth by the Lord, exalted above all choirs of angels and saints, and standing at the right hand of her only a Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she intercedes powerfully for us with a mother’s prayers, obtains what she seeks, and cannot be refused."

Likewise, it can be said that the heavenly voice of the Archangel Gabriel was the first to proclaim Mary’s royal office.

---

**As to Mary’s virginity after her childbirth, *it is not denied by St. Matthew’s expressions “before they came together” (1:18), “her firstborn son” (1:25), nor by the fact that the New Testament books repeatedly refer to the “brothers of Jesus”. ***[66] The words “before they came together” mean probably, “before they lived in the same house”, referring to the time when they were merely betrothed; but even if the words be understood of marital intercourse, they only state that the Incarnation took place before any such intercourse had intervened, without implying that it did occur after the Incarnation of the Son of God. [67]

The same must be said of the expression, “and he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son” (Matthew 1:25); the Evangelist tells us what did not happen before the birth of Jesus, without suggesting that it happened after his birth. [68] The name “firstborn” applies to Jesus whether his mother remained a virgin or gave birth to other children after Jesus; among the Jews it was a legal name [69], so that its occurrence in the Gospel cannot astonish us.**

Finally, the “brothers of Jesus” are neither the sons of Mary, nor the brothers of Our Lord in the proper sense of the word, but they are His cousins or the more or less near relatives. [70] The Church insists that in His birth the Son of God did not lessen but consecrate the virginal integrity of His mother (Secret in Mass of Purification). The Fathers express themselves in similar language concerning this privilege of Mary. [71]

More like NOT. LOL "mean probably"
Can anyone here see?

I don’t really understand your point.
I mean, I’m assuming you don’t agree with this, right?

---

Oh - I keep forgetting, ummm - LOL . . .

 

[1beleevr]

placido: You really shouldn’t resort to condescencion and paranoia; they don’t look good on you! The reason I have never evangelized or witnessed with catholics, is because they haven’t yet come out. I have invited many of catholic friends,(surprised that I have so many catholic friends?) to join us in working with Jesus Shack, doing outreaches, and street ministry, but to no avail! I’m not sure where you got the idea, that I, 1beleevr was trying to empty your church and bring the to mine! Our goal as Christians should be to fill the Kingdom, not seats in the sanctuary! And I like catholics, they’re ahoot!

 

[1beleevr]

elvisman: Well, hallelujah; at least I’m in good company I would presume that they are alive, or “awake”. But I am confused by Paul saying that some are “sleeping?” But, if they were saved and baptized, they are a part of the Body of Christ, as are those of us in the 21st century, who are saved and baptized! But asking a non-catholic why they don’t pray through the saints(in a previous thread), is tantamount to asking them why they don’t eat ketchup on their French fries! And if you will lead, I’ll dance with you:thumbsup:Many of the verses(I am trying to talk s-l-o-w-e-r) mention people praying for each other while they are still alive!

 

[elvisman]

elvisman: Well, hallelujah; at least I’m in good company I would presume that they are alive, or “awake”. But I am confused by Paul saying that some are “sleeping?” But, if they were saved and baptized, they are a part of the Body of Christ, as are those of us in the 21st century, who are saved and baptized! But asking a non-catholic why they don’t pray through the saints(in a previous thread), is tantamount to asking them why they don’t eat ketchup on their French fries! And if you will lead, I’ll dance with you:thumbsup:Many of the verses(I am trying to talk s-l-o-w-e-r) mention people praying for each other while they are still alive!

"Sleeping" is only a metaphoric way of saying that somebody is dead on earth - as it pertains to eternal life. In other words, they only “appear” to be dead, like they are sleeping.

As for praying for each other while we’re still alive, yes, we are to do that.
But to deny that those in heaven are praying for us is to deny the very unity of the Body of Christ that Paul spoke of in 1 Cor. 12:12-31.

---

Lastly, who is "praying throught the saints"? We ask the saints to pray FOR us. I may ask you to pray for me, but that doesn’t mean I’m praying through you. If anything - I’m asking you (and them) to pray WITH me.

 

[Tanner9188]

**I don’t **really understand your point.
I mean, I’m assuming you don’t agree with this, right?

---

Oh - I keep forgetting, ummm - LOL . . .

That’s because it was in relation to Bill Pick
BillPick:

Originally Posted by Bill Pick View Post
Jesus Christ is our only ‘mediator’ as stated by St. Paul. Non-Catholics like to point out this verse to Catholics (out of context of course), as they mistakenly perceive that we ‘mediate’ through His mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. Nothing could be further from the truth.

** He apparently doesn’t understand the Church teaching on this; this was the tip of the Maryology iceberg. A heresy IMO.**

 

[Tanner9188]

"Sleeping" is only a metaphoric way of saying that somebody is dead on earth - as it pertains to eternal life. In other words, they only “appear” to be dead, like they are sleeping.

As for praying for each other while we’re still alive, yes, we are to do that.
But to deny that those in heaven are praying for us is to deny the very unity of the Body of Christ that Paul spoke of in 1 Cor. 12:12-31.

---

Lastly, who is "praying throught the saints"? We ask the saints to pray FOR us. I may ask you to pray for me, but that doesn’t mean I’m praying through you. If anything - I’m asking you (and them) to pray WITH me.

**Trust me, none of the saints in heaven, nor Mary of the Bible, can hear any of your prayers. God often turns His ear away from those that are in unbelief. Just like I cannot hear you speak from where I’m at, nor can you hear me.

They are quite content praising and worshiping God in heaven; you are of no concern to them; they don’t know you. And unless you change course; they will never hear you IMO. I pray that is not the case; May God bless you**.

 

[guanophore]

**Trust me, none of the saints in heaven, nor Mary of the Bible, can hear any of your prayers. God often turns His ear away from those that are in unbelief. Just like I cannot hear you speak from where I’m at, nor can you hear me.

They are quite content praising and worshiping God in heaven; you are of no concern to them; they don’t know you. And unless you change course; they will never hear you IMO. I pray that is not the case; May God bless you**.

Wow. This is a gross denial of the Apostolic teaching on the Communion of Saints.

How is it that Moses and Elijah knew and cared about what was going on here on earth?

Why did Jesus go to such lengths to make sure his three closest Apostles were present for this little chat? He could have done it privately. In fact, he may have done so often!

Why did Samuel?

 

[Tanner9188]

Wow. This is a gross denial of the Apostolic teaching on the Communion of Saints.

How is it that Moses and Elijah knew and cared about what was going on here on earth?

Why did Jesus go to such lengths to make sure his three closest Apostles were present for this little chat? He could have done it privately. In fact, he may have done so often!

Why did Samuel?

**The transfiguration in the gospels is part of the training of the apostles as Jesus just before the transfiguration told his disciples that some of you will not taste death until you see the Son of Man in His glory; giving proof once again to his disciples, who Jesus is one can be certain they told the others what they had witnessed and on the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses is deemed to be true…right? Jewish precept…right.

To go from there to praying to and for the dead and also to expect them to hear or see you would be way over the top in interpretation. There is no indication that Elijah or Moses could see outside of the “bubble” they were in, nor any indication given that they could hear anything outside of the “bubble”. Also, there is no indication from Scripture that the apostles could hear the conversation either.

You really need to quit speculating and reading into Scripture, that which is not there. You say 3 closest apostles; there is no proof and actually Jesus loved them more, but all the same; he is no respecter of persons. He cherishes all the Father has given Him and His love is infinite.

You said He could have done it privately, then made another leap and said “In fact, he may have done so often!”; why would you presume this is the case when you have no idea and it is not been given for us to know.

It is the apostolic teaching according to Rome; not according to Scripture, Jesus or the apostles. If all of you would read and study your Bibles and ask, no beg God, to help you in your understanding of His character, attributes and will; you might come a long way toward really getting to know God IMO.**

 

[guanophore]

**The transfiguration in the gospels is part of the training of the apostles as Jesus just before the transfiguration told his disciples that some of you will not taste death until you see the Son of Man in His glory; giving proof once again to his disciples, who Jesus is one can be certain they told the others what they had witnessed and on the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses is deemed to be true...right?  Jewish precept..right.**

Yes, of course, but that is not the point. Jesus could have transfigured before them without having a little chat with the fellas. Why did He, in His humanity, demonstrate to His Apostles that a conversation with “dead” guys could take place? If this is not possible for humans to do, why didn’t He tell them “don’t try this at home?”. Instead, the Apostles continued to have conversation with those who are part of the Communion of saints, and never conceived that those who had gone on to be with the Lord were ever excised from the Body of Christ of which He had made them a part.

To go from there to praying to and for the dead and also to expect them to hear or see you would be way over the top in interpretation. There is no indication that Elijah or Moses could see outside of the “bubble” they were in, nor any indication given that they could hear anything outside of the “bubble”. Also, there is no indication from Scripture that the apostles could hear the conversation either.

Well, we don’t “go from there”. Catholics “go from” the faith that was once for all delivered to the Church. This faith was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. This passage from the NT reflects the Apostolic faith that those who have gone on before us in the Lord are alive and well, and able to know what is happening here on earth, and to communicate with humans about those events, as well as the state of their souls.

There is nothing in scripture about a “bubble they were in”. You made that up. Let’s confine ourselves to the evidence, shall we?

You really need to quit speculating and reading into Scripture, that which is not there.

OH?! How else will I be able to come up with things like “bubbles”?

Catholics don’t need to speculate, or “read into scripture”. We know that the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in Scripture that is not Catholic.

You say 3 closest apostles; there is no proof and actually Jesus loved them more, but all the same; he is no respecter of persons. He cherishes all the Father has given Him and His love is infinite.

A red herring, and an attempt on you part to dodge the issue. He took these three Apostles, ones He frequently singled out, and showed them a conversation He had with two “dead” guys. Jesus certainly seemed to respect Moses and Elijah enough to have a little chat with them.

You said He could have done it privately, then made another leap and said "In fact, he may have done so often!"; why would you presume this is the case when you have no idea and it is not been given for us to know.

No, but again, an attempt to dodge the point. He did it deliberately in front of His Apostles.
They saw it as confirmation that those who have gone on to be with the Lord are able to interact with us in the here and now.

It is the apostolic teaching according to Rome; not according to Scripture.

No, Tanner, the Catholic Church is not “Roman”. In fact the first Catholics were in Jerusalem, and then in Syria of Antioch they were first called “Christians”. That is why the oldest liturgy is Palestinian, and the second oldest is Syrian. No “Roman” yet, all Catholic.

If all of you would read and study your Bibles and ask, no beg God, to help you in your understanding of His character, attributes and will; you might come a long way toward really getting to know God IMO.

Thank you for your opinion, Tanner. I agree with your assessment of reading scripture and it’s relationship to spiritual growth. However, you seem to assume that “all of you” (Catholics) do not read our bibles and ask God to help us know Him through His word, and this is a wrong assumption.

You did not respond to my query about Samuel. How did Samuel know what was going on with Saul? How is it that he was able to have a conversation with Saul? You will have to find some way to dispense with this passage to shore up your theology. I hope you can do a better job than you have here.

 

[ryan]

Jesus Christ is our only ‘mediator’ as stated by St. Paul. Non-Catholics like to point out this verse to Catholics (out of context of course), as they mistakenly perceive that we ‘mediate’ through His mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. Nothing could be further from the truth.
‘Mediator’, as defined by the dictionary, the first meaning, is: ‘One who works to resolve or settle differences by working with all the conflicting parties’.

The ‘conflicting parties’ in this case, are of course, GOD, and mankind. Jesus Christ did indeed act as mediator by suffering and dying for us.

Jesus IS our mediator!

Jesus has truly taught so many people how to move beyond their personal problems.

What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?

Jesus has many references to the poor and how they are ones that own the kingdom of heaven. He also states how difficult it is for a rich person to enter the kingdom. Did you know…

This is talking about the quality of how we earn a living. If we are a gain money in a way that is damaging to others it ultimately will hurt ourselves. Here is why…

The mindset of “us vs them” is damaging to life. Truly, there is only “us” and “them” is a concept of dysfunction.

The bottom line is when we open our hearts to boundless love, like Jesus wants us to do, we act in line with our highest truth.

Warm wishes,
Ryan

PS if you want more information about Jesus or Catholic religion check out…

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alternative-spiritual-healing.com/history-of-roman-catholic-religion.html​

 

[elvisman]

**Trust me, none of the saints in heaven, nor Mary of the Bible, can hear any of your prayers. God often turns His ear away from those that are in unbelief. Just like I cannot hear you speak from where I’m at, nor can you hear me. **

They are quite content praising and worshiping God in heaven; you are of no concern to them; they don’t know you. And unless you change course; they will never hear you IMO. I pray that is not the case; May God bless you.

Trust YOU?
No, I’ll stick to trusting the Word of God:
Rev. 5:8
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
They are INCERCEEDING on our behalf to the Father.

---

Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:22-31) clearly shows us that those in the bosom of Abraham can hear those who have died are able to know what is happening in heaven, on earth and to othose in torment.

I have already illustrated the Hebrews 12:1 tells us to be on our best behavior because we are surrounded by "so great a cloud of witnesses."

**Tell me something, Tanner - what does a witness do? **
A witness sees and/or hears what is going on. That is what makes them a witness.

To deny that those in heaven are actually witnesses of what is happening here on earth is to deny and reject the Scriptures, my friend.

 

[heiscominginthe]

And where in scripture do you find that idea?

Would God forsake us? No.

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

To say if a man has unforgiven sin at the time of death is able to ask for forgiveness or not is to say one knows the mind of God. God alone knows the hearts of men and he alone decides on this subject.

It is better to always be in our walk of faith, praying always that we have mercy, asking aways for forgiveness and praying always faith to escape from temptation.

 

[Tanner9188]

guanophore:
Yes, of course, but that is not the point. Jesus could have transfigured before them without having a little chat with the fellas. Why did He, in His humanity, demonstrate to His Apostles that a conversation with “dead” guys could take place? If this is not possible for humans to do, why didn’t He tell them “don’t try this at home?”. Instead, the Apostles continued to have conversation with those who are part of the Communion of saints, and never conceived that those who had gone on to be with the Lord were ever excised from the Body of Christ of which He had made them a part.

Well, we don’t “go from there”. Catholics “go from” the faith that was once for all delivered to the Church. This faith was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. This passage from the NT reflects the Apostolic faith that those who have gone on before us in the Lord are alive and well, and able to know what is happening here on earth, and to communicate with humans about those events, as well as the state of their souls.

There is nothing in scripture about a “bubble they were in”. You made that up. Let’s confine ourselves to the evidence, shall we?

OH?! How else will I be able to come up with things like “bubbles”?

Catholics don’t need to speculate, or “read into scripture”. We know that the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in Scripture that is not Catholic.

A red herring, and an attempt on you part to dodge the issue. He took these three Apostles, ones He frequently singled out, and showed them a conversation He had with two “dead” guys. Jesus certainly seemed to respect Moses and Elijah enough to have a little chat with them.

No, but again, an attempt to dodge the point. He did it deliberately in front of His Apostles.
They saw it as confirmation that those who have gone on to be with the Lord are able to interact with us in the here and now.

No, Tanner, the Catholic Church is not “Roman”. In fact the first Catholics were in Jerusalem, and then in Syria of Antioch they were first called “Christians”. That is why the oldest liturgy is Palestinian, and the second oldest is Syrian. No “Roman” yet, all Catholic.

Thank you for your opinion, Tanner. I agree with your assessment of reading scripture and it’s relationship to spiritual growth. However, you seem to assume that “all of you” (Catholics) do not read our bibles and ask God to help us know Him through His word, and this is a wrong assumption.

You did not respond to my query about Samuel. How did Samuel know what was going on with Saul? How is it that he was able to have a conversation with Saul? You will have to find some way to dispense with this passage to shore up your theology. I hope you can do a better job than you have here.

Believe what you want concerning the transfiguration; pray to the dead that can’t hear for we are told how to pray by Jesus for a reason; something conveniently overlooked; add to Scripture all you want; believe that Jesus shows partiality of love for His elect all you want; allow the Catholic Church interpret Scripture for you rather than the Holy Spirit all you want; call is apostolic teaching all you want. I believe you are a victim of Hebrews 6 and Galatians 1; but I pray to God you are not. Were you not in some form of Protestant religion prior to becoming Catholic? You have been exposed to a great deal of Light IMO.

 

[Tanner9188]

Trust YOU?
No, I’ll stick to trusting the Word of God:
Rev. 5:8
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
They are INCERCEEDING on our behalf to the Father.

** These golden and wide-mouthed saucers were common in the tabernacle and temple. Incense was a normal part of the OT, not NT, ritual. Priest stood twice daily before the inner veil of the temple and burned incense so the smoke would carry into the Holy of Holies and then reach into the nostrils of God. That SYMBOLIZED the peoples prayers rising up to God. These prayers in this verse REPRESENTS or SYMBOLIZES all the prayers that the redeemed have ever prayed concerning final redemption.**

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Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:22-31) clearly shows us that those in the bosom of Abraham can hear those who have died are able to know what is happening in heaven, on earth and to othose in torment.

Parable; not real characters to make a spiritual point; not that we can talk to the dead either; but rather He was speaking to the Pharisees to make a point to them about they perceived as the poor beggar shows, which in their eyes showed disfavor with God; where the rich show they were in favor with God; the point is that it is the opposite of how God views things. For a real life example; see Luke 18 and the Publican and Pharisee. This is the only parable Jesus taught that used a specific name; nothing more or less.

I have already illustrated the Hebrews 12:1 tells us to be on our best behavior because we are surrounded by "so great a cloud of witnesses."

**Tell me something, Tanner **- what does a witness do?
A witness sees and/or hears what is going on. That is what makes them a witness.

The writer says, ‘Since we have so great a cloud of witness surrounding us.’ Our proof lies in the examples of Moses, Abraham, David, and all the other men and women written in Hebrews 11. You know little to nothing concerning Scripture; and worse you believe you do. Sad; very sad, breaks my heart to see such spiritual pride and so very little knowledge.

To deny that those in heaven are actually witnesses of what is happening here on earth is to deny and reject the Scriptures, my friend.

**Or not to understand what Scripture teaches, which is surely the case here IMO; you must have the Holy Spirit to understand the Scriptures; He is the resident Truth-Teacher. **

 

[guanophore]

**Believe what you want concerning the transfiguration; **

I will, thanks!

However, I am asking you how you explain away this story. You must have some way to dispense with it, in order to support your rejection of the Apostolic Teaching on the communion of saints.

pray to the dead that can’t hear

Please explain how Moses and Elijah were unable to “hear” Jesus. Please explain how Samuel was unable to “hear” Saul. How did all these “dead” hear humans talking? How were they able to respond?

for we are told how to pray by Jesus for a reason; something conveniently overlooked; add to Scripture all you want;

Actually, I think it is you that is “subtracting” from scripture. You seem to wish these passages did not exist, but they do. Of course we pray to Jesus! There is no need for us to separate ourselves from others who are doing the same.

believe that Jesus shows partiality of love for His elect all you want;

I think you are just using this to avoid that with which you are confronted. The truth is that Jesus often singled out Peter, James, and John. He allowed them to observe Him having a conversation with two “dead” people who you say cannot hear our prayers. Peter, James, and John then continued to teach for the rest of their lives that we can have conversation with those who have gone on before us in faith. How do you account for this?

allow the Catholic Church interpret Scripture for you rather than the Holy Spirit all you want; call is apostolic teaching all you want. I believe you are a victim of Hebrews 6 and Galatians 1; but I pray to God you are not. Were you not in some form of Protestant religion prior to becoming Catholic? You have been exposed to a great deal of Light IMO.

The Catholic Church is not separate from the HS, Tanner. The HS is the Soul of the Church. And the communion of saints IS apostolic teaching. You will discover this for yourself when you are brave enough to take a course in historical theology.

I also pray to God for the perseverance of faith to the end.

** These golden and wide-mouthed saucers were common in the tabernacle and temple. Incense was a normal part of the OT, not NT, ritual. Priest stood twice daily before the inner veil of the temple and burned incense so the smoke would carry into the Holy of Holies and then reach into the nostrils of God. That SYMBOLIZED the peoples prayers rising up to God. These prayers in this verse REPRESENTS or SYMBOLIZES all the prayers that the redeemed have ever prayed concerning final redemption.**

I agree. John was given a vision of heaven, and this was what he observed. The OT saints are not separated from the New, and that is why this book is included in the NT. Perhaps you are like Luther, and feel it should have been left out? Too many passages about how you have to act right to get to heaven?

But then, Luther believed in the communion of saints as taught by the Apostles.

 

[guanophore]

Parable; not real characters to make a spiritual point; not that we can talk to the dead either; but rather He was speaking to the Pharisees to make a point to them about they perceived as the poor beggar shows, which in their eyes showed disfavor with God; where the rich show they were in favor with God; the point is that it is the opposite of how God views things.

I agree with you on the nature of parable. However, Jesus is not going to use something false to illustrate a spiritual reality. The fact is, those who have gone on before us in faith can communicate with one another, and with people here. They are the “great cloud of witnesses” listed in Heb. 11. How can anyone be a "witness"if they are “sleeping” and not aware of what is happening?
Tanner9188;5515207:

The writer says, ‘Since we have so great a cloud of witness surrounding us.’ Our proof lies in the examples of Moses, Abraham, David, and all the other men and women written in Hebrews 11. You know little to nothing concerning Scripture; and worse you believe you do. Sad; very sad, breaks my heart to see such spiritual pride and so very little knowledge.

I agree with you, that is “proof” for us. We have “proof” that Jesus conversed with two members of that great cloud of witnesses. I am sorry you are heartbroken, Tanner. Maybe this is necessary for you to come to understand that Scripture should not be interpreted apart from the Sacred Tradition that produced it.

**Or not to understand what Scripture teaches, which is surely the case here IMO; you must have the Holy Spirit to understand the Scriptures; He is the resident Truth-Teacher. **

I agree, one needs the HS to understand the Scriptures. But the HS is not going to reveal one thing to a certain truth seeker, and the opposite to another. For example, there is one person on this thread that does not believe in the Trinity, yet calls himself a Christian. Is this from God? And how is one to tell which interpretation is from God, and which is errant?

I will give you a hint. Scripture does not “teach”. People “teach”. This is a gift that God has given to the Church. It requires will, discernment, and authority, all qualities that scripture does not have. You have been taught by someone to perceive scripture according to a certain theology. You believe it is “biblical theology”. Catholics understand scripture in the light of the Apostolic Teaching. Those who are separated from the Apostolic Succession often do not even know it exists, and if they do, think it is not valid. However, God is able to preserve His Word in the Church infallibly.

 

[Tanner9188]

I agree, one needs the HS to understand the Scriptures. But the HS is not going to reveal one thing to a certain truth seeker, and the opposite to another. For example, there is one person on this thread that does not believe in the Trinity, yet calls himself a Christian. Is this from God? And how is one to tell which interpretation is from God, and which is errant?

**How did you receive the Holy Spirit in your teaching; water baptism? Anyone who denies the Trinity is not a true disciple of Christ; easily discernible.
**

I will give you a hint. Scripture does not “teach”. People “teach”. This is a gift that God has given to the Church. It requires will, discernment, and authority, all qualities that scripture does not have.

Correct, some people can teach; and the Scripture is the Living Word and does teach, part of what makes it supernatural. It is God breathed and therefore alive and will endure forever; just as it is written. The problem is you prove your low or perhaps distorted view of Scripture; especially in light of your Catholic teaching IMO. You may regret one day ever posting such nonsense concerning the the Word of God. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” Serious issue there; very scary, makes me tremble to think about what God thinks of that now that I highlighted and thought about it.
Wouldn’t want to be in those shoes.

 

[notrust]

mabby im stubbarn ya i notice the illuminati using energy or the holy spirit as guiding them from right or wrong even realize it starts with computers. me ya joined believing they were government recently backed off. i wish to believe in the holy spirit i was blessed with the first time i made my vow to god. i believe this funnel of energy is nothing more then blasphamy in respect to blessings kind of believe in taking the bread and wine once. same as you posted in the beginning was the word the word was with god and the word was god. one blessing to me means this. mind you a fare hand shake from society may lead me to witchcraft so as to manipulate my way to the land of the free.