Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[placido]

placido: Bravissimo! Your defense of your fellow catholic, is quite commendableYou probably need to read more of his posts, some of them laced with condescension, accusations, and, well let’s just say I couldn’t imagine elvisman having lunch with a noncatholic!

Whatever you “imagine” about Elvisman is not what makes you anti-catholic. What makes you anti-catholic is among others your persistence in calling the host a “wafer”.

So the official ruling is, that if we disagree with youse guys, we’re anti-catholic!

Not at all. Many do disagree with us yet they are not anti-Catholic.

So if you drove a Mustang, and I didn’t particularly care for Ford products, am I anti-Ford?

Only if you give the “Ford products” derogatory names and deliberately misrepresent facts regarding the “Ford products”.

placido

 

[guanophore]

Okay, everything I read, says that purgatory is a catholic doctrine After reading carefully, I cannot find any evidence that Christ taught this practice to His apostles! Aren’t purgatory and indulgences, two of the things that Martin Luther rebelled against?

The word “purgatory” comes from a Latin root which refers to purging (purification with fire). It is not used in the East because the Eastern Churches are based in Greek, Syriac, and other languages that are not Romance or Latin based.

Part of the reason you cannot find evidence of purgatory is because you read scripture with anti-catholic blinders on. If you took these off, you could at least see what Catholics see. If you then disagreed, you could put the blinders back on, and go on your merry way.

Another reason that you cannot find evidence of Christ teaching on purgatory is because you have a truncated canon. The Reformers removed some of the books used by Jesus and the Apostles. These books were removed, as you have observed, because they support the notion of purgatory to which Luther and others objected. Luther also wanted to take out James, Jude,and Revelation, but his homies were able to stop him.
Salvation is of the Jews. Jesus assumed the Jewish faith when teaching so elements of that faith, such as purgatory, that were evident, He did not address formally. This is the same reason He never said anything about homosexual behavior. It was considered self evident.

And after reading 1Corinthians 3:13-15, in many different Bibles, I still could not derive purgatory from it

This is part of your problem. It is inappropriate to “derive” doctrine from reading a scripture passage. Doctrine is to be received from the Apostles, not distilled 2000 years later from a single scripture.

I have heard that the first appearance before the Mercy Seat, will be to determine rewards,i.e, what have you done for the Lord. And, fire will burn away all that is not good, and leave what is good! I guess we better live like Christ, if we don’t want to be totally consumed by fire!

Yes, this is a good description of purgatory.

So, are we saying that apostolic teachings, which were supposedly kept pristine through the years, is infallible, and there was no tweaking of any scripture, or tradition by anyone don the line

Clearly there has been tweaking of both scripture and tradition. This is what causes heresies, schisms, and separations in the Church. Jesus, however, is able to guard what He entrusted to the Church. The Truth that He gave to the church exists outside of, and beyond all the fallible men attached to the church. I think the failure to appreciate the infallibility of the Church results from a deficient understanding of the nature of the Church. Most Protestants consider the Church to be the “body of believers on earth”. This is a very truncated understanding of the Church. He is the Head of the Body,a nd the HS is the Soul of the Body. It is these divine elments that prevent the Church from error, not the fallible men attached to her.

 

[WASP]

The definition of the Council of Chalcedon includes the following description of Jesus’ two natures: "…our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer."

Doesn’t Chalcedon limit Mary’s Motherhood to Jesus’ humanity?

 

[davidv]

The definition of the Council of Chalcedon includes the following description of Jesus’ two natures: "…our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer."

Doesn’t Chalcedon limit Mary’s Motherhood to Jesus’ humanity?

No. Mothers give birth to persons, not natures. Jesus’ natures cannot be separated. Mary is Mother of Jesus…

 

[onenow1]

The definition of the Council of Chalcedon includes the following description of Jesus’ two natures: "…our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer."

Doesn’t Chalcedon limit Mary’s Motherhood to Jesus’ humanity?

From: onenow1
Hi, Wasp and Welcome ! At the Council of Chalcedon (A.D. 451), Apollinarianism, Nestorianism, Eutychianism, and even the teachings of Cyril of Alexander were condemned as heretical. The conclusions of the Council were: (1) Christ was truly God and truly man; (2) Christ was homoousias with God and homoiousias with man; (3) Christ was like man but without sin; (4) Christ was begotten on Mary, the Godbearer; and (5) Christ had two distinct natures and one person, without fusion or change or division of these natures. By the term “Godbearer,” the Council intended to state not that Jesus’ divinity proceeded from Mary, but rather that Mary was the mother of the person (Jesus) who was God.

Peace and God Bless onenow1

 

[1beleevr]

elvisman: I work with a lot of catholics, and occasionally we engage in discussions of faith. It is usually a combination of radical, venom spewing, ultra conservatives, to level headed, logical, compassionate ones! And you know what? Until I came on this forum, I did not know that the cc called the wafer, the hostWejust always call it “the Body of Christ!” I work directly with couple of catholics, who have said repeatedly that they despise anyone who isn’t caholic And you guys(you and placido) are no choir boys! You have been just as guilty of noncatholic bashing, as we have been of catholic bashing.And I believe in Heaven we will all be “saints”, regardless of denomination Why would your siblings leave the church? Actually, we don’t use wafers, we use unleavened bread! And another thing about the prison communion thing; I am not sure what the regulations are concerning affairs spiritual. I just know that even though they are locked up, freedom of religion(should be freedom from religion) is still extended to them! Knowing that alcohol is banned in prison, would lead me to believe that the priest has to use a “substitute”, but only he drinks from the cup. I work in a loction where I have an unobstructed view of the ceremony. I hope you don’t think that I hate you, or any other catholic, that goes against who I am in Christ! Believe me, there are many that I deal with on a daily basis, who are difficult to love, but by the power and peace of Christ, I am able to show them charity! Religion, like politics, can be a very contentious subject, and cause peoples emotions to spiral out of control. But, if I have never been instructed to call something, whatever it is that they want it called, then I am only guilty of not being instructed,. But ultimately, it comes down to a choice of believing, or not believing; sort of like salvation:thumbsup: When I have discussions with catholics, or for that matter, anyone from any faith, I am not bent on changing their mind(only God can do that) to my way of thinking, I just talk about Jesus, and how He has changed my life; totally:thumbsup: So, think what you will, my Christian brother, but remember this; I do know the Lord, and have been born again:thumbsup:BTW, do you personally know anyone who has lost their salvation?How did they lose it? How do they get it back; must they start all over again? May the Peace of our Lord abbide in you!

 

[freedomwriter]

elvisman: I work with a lot of catholics, and occasionally we engage in discussions of faith. It is usually a combination of radical, venom spewing, ultra conservatives, to level headed, logical, compassionate ones! And you know what? Until I came on this forum, I did not know that the cc called the wafer, the hostWejust always call it “the Body of Christ!” I work directly with couple of catholics, who have said repeatedly that they despise anyone who isn’t caholic And you guys(you and placido) are no choir boys! You have been just as guilty of noncatholic bashing, as we have been of catholic bashing.And I believe in Heaven we will all be “saints”, regardless of denomination Why would your siblings leave the church? Actually, we don’t use wafers, we use unleavened bread! And another thing about the prison communion thing; I am not sure what the regulations are concerning affairs spiritual. I just know that even though they are locked up, freedom of religion(should be freedom from religion) is still extended to them! Knowing that alcohol is banned in prison, would lead me to believe that the priest has to use a “substitute”, but only he drinks from the cup. I work in a loction where I have an unobstructed view of the ceremony. I hope you don’t think that I hate you, or any other catholic, that goes against who I am in Christ! Believe me, there are many that I deal with on a daily basis, who are difficult to love, but by the power and peace of Christ, I am able to show them charity! Religion, like politics, can be a very contentious subject, and cause peoples emotions to spiral out of control. But, if I have never been instructed to call something, whatever it is that they want it called, then I am only guilty of not being instructed,. But ultimately, it comes down to a choice of believing, or not believing; sort of like salvation:thumbsup: When I have discussions with catholics, or for that matter, anyone from any faith, I am not bent on changing their mind(only God can do that) to my way of thinking, I just talk about Jesus, and how He has changed my life; totally:thumbsup: So, think what you will, my Christian brother, but remember this; I do know the Lord, and have been born again:thumbsup:BTW, do you personally know anyone who has lost their salvation?How did they lose it? How do they get it back; must they start all over again? May the Peace of our Lord abbide in you!

Some of these guys on here are a joke. The wouldn’t know the bible even if you showed them pictures. As a former catholic i am embarressed on how they interpret the Word of God. They come up with scriptures that have nothing to do with purgatory. That shows you that they are adding to God’s Word and He doesn’t take that lightly. I say this in brotherly love of course. Keep fighting the Good Fight of Faith as our Lord is coming soon. God Bless

 

[1beleevr]

guan: Actully, I thought it was a good example, to point out that even though when we commit a sin(crime), there may be mitigating circumstances. For instance, if I shoot and kill an inmate, in the performance of my assigned duties, it is called:Homicide by a Peace Officer. It could still be considered a sin(murder) by some, but I have been sworn to protect both the public, and inmates from each otherSome one, earlier in this thread,said that ALL sin was delberate; so I was providing two different scenarios, to ask, was the crime of defending someones’s life, while taking someone else’s a deliberate sinAs for the subject of purgatory, well I do believe that it is a catholic doctrine! Not sure how many others believe in it It seems that the problem lies in what exactly to call this process that Paul describes in 1Cor 3:13-15! You call it purgatory, we call it, you know I don’t really know what noncathoics call it I believe that it is that time(the first JUdgement Seat), when we answer for or our actions!

 

[elvisman]

Some of these guys on here are a joke. The wouldn’t know the bible even if you showed them pictures. As a former catholic i am embarressed on how they interpret the Word of God. They come up with scriptures that have nothing to do with purgatory. That shows you that they are adding to God’s Word and He doesn’t take that lightly. I say this in brotherly love of course. Keep fighting the Good Fight of Faith as our Lord is coming soon. God Bless

Well - that’s mature.

As always, freedomwriter, your posts illustrate that you don’t have the faculties to have charitable discourse. Your inability to answer many of my posts is another indication that you obviously don’t know the Scriptures as well you think you do.

Whereas, I vehemently disagree with much of what you say - I don’t consider you a joke. Far from it - it’s too tragic to be funny . . .

 

[SHW]

Some of these guys on here are a joke. The wouldn’t know the bible even if you showed them pictures. As a former catholic i am embarressed on how they interpret the Word of God. They come up with scriptures that have nothing to do with purgatory. That shows you that they are adding to God’s Word and He doesn’t take that lightly. I say this in brotherly love of course. Keep fighting the Good Fight of Faith as our Lord is coming soon. God Bless

You should be embarrassed. You are a good example of interpreting Scriptures all by yourself! People who are “untaught” by the Church usually make errors in interpretation. (2 Peter 3:16) This is in God’s Word. A place of purgation which we now call purgatory has been taught by the Church since Christ Himself taught His gospel. All early Christians knew about it. It is only people who for the past 500 years have disregarded Apostolic teaching who have now declared that purgatory does not exist. Jesus’ spirit even went to these “prisoners” in purgatory during His three days in the grave in order to preach to them. (1 Peter 3:18-20)

Anyone who really wants to learn the truth and has an open mind and heart can figure these things out. “Prison” after death was not “Abraham’s bosom.” Those in Abraham’s bosom (limbo) were resting; they were not suffering the trials of imprisonment (purging of sins) as those who were in purgatory, but were instead waiting for Jesus to open the gates of heaven so that they could enter.(Luke 16:22-26)

 

[elvisman]

elvisman: I work with a lot of catholics, and occasionally we engage in discussions of faith. It is usually a combination of radical, venom spewing, ultra conservatives, to level headed, logical, compassionate ones! And you know what? Until I came on this forum, I did not know that the cc called the wafer, the hostWejust always call it “the Body of Christ!” I work directly with couple of catholics, who have said repeatedly that they despise anyone who isn’t caholic And you guys(you and placido) are no choir boys! You have been just as guilty of noncatholic bashing, as we have been of catholic bashing.And I believe in Heaven we will all be “saints”, regardless of denomination Why would your siblings leave the church? Actually, we don’t use wafers, we use unleavened bread! And another thing about the prison communion thing; I am not sure what the regulations are concerning affairs spiritual. I just know that even though they are locked up, freedom of religion(should be freedom from religion) is still extended to them! Knowing that alcohol is banned in prison, would lead me to believe that the priest has to use a “substitute”, but only he drinks from the cup. I work in a loction where I have an unobstructed view of the ceremony. I hope you don’t think that I hate you, or any other catholic, that goes against who I am in Christ! Believe me, there are many that I deal with on a daily basis, who are difficult to love, but by the power and peace of Christ, I am able to show them charity! Religion, like politics, can be a very contentious subject, and cause peoples emotions to spiral out of control. But, if I have never been instructed to call something, whatever it is that they want it called, then I am only guilty of not being instructed,. But ultimately, it comes down to a choice of believing, or not believing; sort of like salvation:thumbsup: When I have discussions with catholics, or for that matter, anyone from any faith, I am not bent on changing their mind(only God can do that) to my way of thinking, I just talk about Jesus, and how He has changed my life; totally:thumbsup: So, think what you will, my Christian brother, but remember this; I do know the Lord, and have been born again:thumbsup:BTW, do you personally know anyone who has lost their salvation?How did they lose it? How do they get it back; must they start all over again? May the Peace of our Lord abbide in you!

**When I base my arguments on opinions or resort to half-truths and lies as you do, **THEN you can call me an "non-Catholic basher". Unlike you and others like freedomwriter, I do my homework before posting on these forums.

As for my siblings, they left the Church because, like you, they bought into the false, “feel-good” message of the Gospel as spewed from the mouths of anti-Catholic men like John MacArthur, James White, Jimmy Swaggart, James McCarthy and others.

**Lastly - as for losing your salvation, you must understand one thing: **
**Salvation is a process. **
Anybody who says that salvation is a one-time event, doesn’t know the Bible. Matt. 7:21, Matt. 24:13, Romans 11:22, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:26-27, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4 ALL speak of the necessity of enduring in the faith and staying in God’s favor until the end.

 

[1beleevr]

:thumbsup:elvisman: Whether you believe it or not, you are anti-noncatholic; it is prevalent in most of your posts addressed to noncatholics! And in an earlier post, I wrote something which agrees with your take on salvation; that it is a lifelong process, complete with trials, tribulations, joys,growth, disappointments, sorrow, and ultimately death. I never sid that it was a P-O-O-F!, you’re saved because you repented, confessed asked God for forgiveness, and was baptized I am growing and learning from Him, every day!(Philippians 1:6). And being born-again is also a process, something that doesn’t happen overnight! Before the Holy Spirit became as prominent in my life, as He is, I was one, whom like many in this forum, on both sides, painted people with the same broad brush. Now, because of Christ’s influence in my heart, I am more able to see people as individuals, and not as having the same characteristics of the group they are in! Before I was born again, I would have probably walked by that beggar in the park, who not only needs food, but he needs the “Bread of Life”. Now, I stop and talk with them, eaching out in the Name of Jesus, showing them His love! I’m sorry that your sibs left the church; I know how, when you experience the unbridled love and joy of Jesus, you want everyone you know, including your family, to be a part of it. I come from family of eight children, and am gently, lovingly, steering them back to the throne of Jesus! Don’t you just love yhe fact that Hebrews 4:16, says that we can boldly enter the throneroom of grace, because of what Jesus did on the Cross?

 

[elvisman]

:thumbsup:elvisman: Whether you believe it or not, you are anti-noncatholic; it is prevalent in most of your posts addressed to noncatholics! And in an earlier post, I wrote something which agrees with your take on salvation; that it is a lifelong process, complete with trials, tribulations, joys,growth, disappointments, sorrow, and ultimately death. I never sid that it was a P-O-O-F!, you’re saved because you repented, confessed asked God for forgiveness, and was baptized I am growing and learning from Him, every day!(Philippians 1:6). And being born-again is also a process, something that doesn’t happen overnight! Before the Holy Spirit became as prominent in my life, as He is, I was one, whom like many in this forum, on both sides, painted people with the same broad brush. Now, because of Christ’s influence in my heart, I am more able to see people as individuals, and not as having the same characteristics of the group they are in! Before I was born again, I would have probably walked by that beggar in the park, who not only needs food, but he needs the “Bread of Life”. Now, I stop and talk with them, eaching out in the Name of Jesus, showing them His love! I’m sorry that your sibs left the church; I know how, when you experience the unbridled love and joy of Jesus, you want everyone you know, including your family, to be a part of it. I come from family of eight children, and am gently, lovingly, steering them back to the throne of Jesus! Don’t you just love yhe fact that Hebrews 4:16, says that we can boldly enter the throneroom of grace, because of what Jesus did on the Cross?

First of all, the only thing I am “anti” is anti-Catholicism.
You’re wrong about being born again. Salvation is a process, being born again happens at baptism.

As for what Jesus did on the cross, he redeemed us. Yes, we CAN go directly to God now. However, I will issue you a challenge:
Don’t ever ask ANYBODY to pray (intercede) for you again because you feel that this is unnecessary - even though the Scriptures are riddles with verses that say EXACTLY the opposite (Acts 8:24; 2 Cor. 13:7; Phil. 1:9; Gal. 5:13, 6:2; Eph. 4:32; 1 Thess. 3:10-12, 4:9-18, 5:14-15, 25; 2 Thess. 1:3, 3:1; 1 Tim. 2:1-4; 2 Tim. 1:3-4; Heb. 3:19, 13:18; Jas. 5:16; 1 Pet. 1:22, 3:8; 1 John 4:7-21; 2 John 5).

**You also reject the unity of the Body of Christ because you believe that Christians who have passed from this earth are dead and cannot hear us - even though Hebrews 12:1 and the Transfiguration of Christ say the exact opposite. **

I don’t know who’s Body you’re describing with your beliefs - but it is CERTAINLY not the Body of Christ.

 

[guanophore]

The definition of the Council of Chalcedon includes the following description of Jesus’ two natures: "…our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer."

Doesn’t Chalcedon limit Mary’s Motherhood to Jesus’ humanity?

No. Mother’s are not mother’s of a “nature” but of a Person. Jesus had two natures in one Person. She is the mother of the second person of the Trinity. She did not begat his divinity.

 

[guanophore]

, do you personally know anyone who has lost their salvation?How did they lose it? How do they get it back; must they start all over again?

The Catholic Church does not claim to know who is saved, and who is not, except for those that God has revealed. This is God’s decision. The only thing that will definitely prevent salvation is final impentinence (refusal to repent to the very end). Only God knows for sure who they are.

Sin separates us from God. The nature of sin does not change just because a person asks Jesus into their heart. If a person is saved by grace, through faith, but then goes back to a sinful lifestyle, one can be lost. For a baptized person, their last state is worse than the first. Baptism seals and makes eternal changes in a person. It cannot be undone, but the benefits of it can be lost.

 

[Bill_Pick]

guan: Actully, I thought it was a good example, to point out that even though when we commit a sin(crime), there may be mitigating circumstances. For instance, if I shoot and kill an inmate, in the performance of my assigned duties, it is called:Homicide by a Peace Officer. It could still be considered a sin(murder) by some, but I have been sworn to protect both the public, and inmates from each otherSome one, earlier in this thread,said that ALL sin was delberate; so I was providing two different scenarios, to ask, was the crime of defending someones’s life, while taking someone else’s a deliberate sinAs for the subject of purgatory, well I do believe that it is a catholic doctrine! Not sure how many others believe in it It seems that the problem lies in what exactly to call this process that Paul describes in 1Cor 3:13-15! You call it purgatory, we call it, you know I don’t really know what noncathoics call it I believe that it is that time(the first JUdgement Seat), when we answer for or our actions!

Mal. 2:16 - God says “I hate divorce.” These are strong words from our Lord. Divorce and remarriage violates the sacred marital covenant between a husband and a wife that has been ordained by God.

Matt. 19:6 - Jesus makes it clear that it is God who joins the husband and wife together, according to His will. What God joins together cannot be dissolved because God’s will is perfect and eternal.

Matt. 19:9; Mark 10:11-12; Luke 16:18 - Jesus says that whoever divorces and remarries another commits adultery. This is an offense against the natural law.

 

[1beleevr]

Hey, Bill Pick: What do you suppose Jesus meant, when He said,“And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; unless she is unfaithful!” Matthew 19:9. Do you think it means that you can get divorced, but not remarry?

 

[1beleevr]

elvisman: Before it gets tedious, or out of hand, I think we should nip this anti whatever we each are, or are not in the bud! If I were truly anti-catholic, as you claim, I wouldn’t even talk to them, let alone join a catholic forum I have worked with them, had them do ork for me, ate with them, paried with them; in fact the only thing I haven’t done with them is witness or evangelize! I must say that I am duly impressed by your knowledge of scripture, even though some of them had nothing to do with intercessory prayerAnd I don’t ever remember saying that I didn’t believe in intercessory prayer, in fact, I am a member of several intercessory prayer teamsWhat I said, was, I did not feel the NEED to pray through the saints, or Mary! I have the greatest mediator through which I can reach the Father. You may know Him, his Name is Jesus! He talks to me everyday, and I talk to Him everyday, Yippee! In the verses you quoted, they were all requests for people to pray for each other, which is what we do. I am also not telling anyone that they can’t pray through Mary and the saints; how could I stop you? This reminds me of last September, when I was doing Street Ministry, through an organization called Jesus Shack. I knocked on this one door, and was having a rather pleasant talk with a very nice man. I asked him if I could pray with him. He said, “I’m a catholic, and I don’t need your prayers, thank you!” He did take a couple of food boxes to give to someone he knew who was in need. So, I will ask someone to pray for me, and all believers are part of the Body of Christ. Your previous pope, John Paul II said that, “all men could be saved.”, even us Gentiles:thumbsup:And I was floating an idea about how when you receive the Holy Spirit, a seed is planted in you, and begins to grow, much like a baby. You continue to grow, until you grow up; don’t believe anyone is born all growed up.And what exactly happens at confirmation, and what Biblical references do you use during the ceremony?1 Thess 5:21. God bless you, my brother in Christ:thumbsup:

 

[placido]

If I were truly anti-catholic, as you claim, I wouldn’t even talk to them, let alone join a catholic forum I have worked with them, had them do ork for me, ate with them, paried with them;

Anti-Catholics are not anti individual Catholics, they are anti the Catholic Church. In their attempt to empty the Church of its members, they have to talk to individual Catholics and join Catholic forums just like you did.

in fact the only thing I haven’t done with them is witness or evangelize!

Of course, an anti-Catholic won’t witness or evangelize with Catholics because his aim is to “evangelize” them to leave the Church.

placido

 

[Bill_Pick]

Hey, Bill Pick: What do you suppose Jesus meant, when He said,“And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; unless she is unfaithful!” Matthew 19:9. Do you think it means that you can get divorced, but not remarry?

Well if they are “fornication” I think he is telling them to get out of town,what do you think ? From your post you understand the Bible betten then me