Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[elvisman]

elvisman: I suppose I should feel pretty special, to have delivered the most immature statement that you’ve ever read And I didn’t even mention the Truth(Jesus), I merely pointed out that on those occasions where I attended catholic churches, I thought maybe I had some type of disease, besides sin! The love of Christ was not evident in those parishes! I am not, however, condemning all cc parishes, just making an observation! And purgatory is only a catholic doctrine, based on an interpretation of said scripture!

Actually - that’s not all you said.
You stated that “not many speak to you” and that “you are reminded, that you cannot do this, and cannot do this, unless you are catholic!”
Then you went on to say, “Good thing Jesus didn’t treat people like this, huh?”.

I pointed out to you that you were out of line because the demeanor of the people during the mass has nothing to do with what is taking place. We do not socialize during the mass - we are there to celebrate the Eucharist which is the source and summit of our faith.

I also instructed you that the ONLY thing you are not permitted to parttake in during the mass as a non-Catholic is Communion. Your problem is that you won’t become a Catholic, yet you want to be able to parttake in Communion, which is a statement that you are in full communion with the Catholic Church.

You say that Jesus wouldn’t have treated people like this? WRONG.
How many non-believers were at the Last Supper? At the Ascension? You see - Jesus said the following about his Church:
"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me" (Luke 10:16).
He didn’t say that about one single, rebellious Protestant sect - only about the ONE Church he established.

As for Purgatory - it is simply another Doctrine of the Church that centuries of Protestant sects have abandoned because of their spritual pridefulness. Rejecting Christian doctrines doesn’t make you right. In fact, all it makes you is a rebellious child of divorce . . .

 

[1beleevr]

elvisman: I think the point that I am trying to make, is that during those services at catholic churches, I felt and saw the love FOR God, but I didn’t feel the love OF Christ! Now, you have made it clear, that when you are in your worship, complete with sad, sullen, solemn music, that you block out everything around you! And as far as becoming a catholic, it seems that you are either born into it(cradle catholic, that is so cute!) or for whatever reason, you convert! I do partake of communion, the same way that Jesus and His disciples did:thumbsup:And purgarory is still a catholic doctrine, not a God or Christ doctrine! Peace be with you, and all the blessings of our Lord and Saviour, my brother in Christ! Are you really saying that Jesus shut people out of His “circle?” He didn’t preach love for each other, and welcome in children, lepers, blind men, bums, etc.?

 

[placido]

Rom 8:1 “There is therefore NOW no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus”. No sin a believer can commit past, present or future can be held against him, since the penalty was paid by Christ and righteousness was imputed to the believer. And no sin will ever reverse this divine legal decision. Now that is Good News.

Sin - whether by commission or by ommission - can be held against us (Matthew 25:31-46).

Now that doesn’t mean that we should go out and commit sin.

Why not, if no sin can be held against us?

placido

 

[elvisman]

elvisman: I think the point that I am trying to make, is that during those services at catholic churches, I felt and saw the love FOR God, but I didn’t feel the love OF Christ! Now, you have made it clear, that when you are in your worship, complete with sad, sullen, solemn music, that you block out everything around you! And as far as becoming a catholic, it seems that you are either born into it(cradle catholic, that is so cute!) or for whatever reason, you convert! I do partake of communion, the same way that Jesus and His disciples did:thumbsup:And purgarory is still a catholic doctrine, not a God or Christ doctrine! Peace be with you, and all the blessings of our Lord and Saviour, my brother in Christ! Are you really saying that Jesus shut people out of His “circle?” He didn’t preach love for each other, and welcome in children, lepers, blind men, bums, etc.?

"MY worship with sad, sullen music, blocking out everything around me"? NONSENSE.

All I said was that the Mass (not “service”) is the celebration of the sacrifice of the Eucharist - not a social event. Whereas, we we worship together as a community - we save the socializing for AFTER mass.

As for communion - you don’t partake of it in the same way as Jesus and his Apostles. Jesus said it was actually his body and Blood. What you partake in is merely symbolic.

Jesus didn’t shut anybody out - they shut themselves out as Protestants continue to do today. It’s not the Church - it’s the rebellion against the Church that keeps you out of the Body of Christ.

Finally - as I already indicated - Purgatory is a doctrine of the ancient historic Christian faith that was rejected by the Protestant rebels. Unfortunately, being a child of rebellion and divorce - you can’t fully understand this.

 

[1beleevr]

When we are unbelievers, sin has no consequence to us Many may believe that they are headed for Hell anyway, so, why bother? Then, we are met by Christ, convicted overwhelmed, and through the glory of His salvation, are brought to our knees, repent, confess, ask for forgiveness, and are saved! After baptism, we begin our “new” lives with Christ, with the knowledge that He has forgiven ALL of our sins! Does this mean that we stop sinning? No, not as long as we wear flesh. But, I believe that because we are saved, we have anew attitude towards sin! We realize that Jesus has freed us from the slavery of sin, and also from the bonds of the law. I know now, that if and when I have a sinful thought, instead of just carrying it out, I stop, pray, confess, and thank God for His forgiveness! I still do sin from time to time, but for the most part, I am more aware of Christ in my life, and my “smoke detector is working”.

 

[placido]

elvisman: I think the point that I am trying to make, is that during those services at catholic churches, I felt and saw the love FOR God, but I didn’t feel the love OF Christ!

It may be because we don’t distinguish God and Christ (John 10:30), or maybe because a Catholic service has nothing to do with feelings …

And purgarory is still a catholic doctrine, not a God or Christ doctrine!

So what? Even the Bible is a “Catholic doctrine,” yet you don’t reject it.

Are you really saying that Jesus shut people out of His “circle?” He didn’t preach love for each other, and welcome in children, lepers, blind men, bums, etc.?

Reading the Bible we see Jesus preaching “love for each other, and welcome children, lepers, blind men, bums, etc” (all this the Catholic Church does more than any other religious grouping), but we also see Him

1. Alone,
2. With His 12 apostles,
3. With all His disciples and
4. Addressing big crowds.
   Staying alone or with His apostles for a moment (e.g. at the Last Supper) does not mean He was “shutting people out of His circle”. Like wise, you can’t accuse the Church of shutting out some people by excluding them from the Holy Communion for instance.

placido

 

[1beleevr]

One thing is for sure; we are both stubborn for our faith! And we save our socializing for afterwards also, but we do greet each other, same as the early believers did! And when I say that we partake of communion like Christ and His disciples did, I mean we each partake of the bread and cup, not have someone put a wafer on our tongue, or drink solel from the cup(priest). You continually violate Matthew 7:1-5, when you judge those outside of your exclusive society! I am so glad that Christ welcomed all to come to Him:thumbsup: Because of that, I have the promise of eternal life.

 

[1beleevr]

placido: You say that the catholic church does more than all other churches. Are you talking about evangelizing, feeding the homeless, having Bible studies for children and adlts, etc,.? If you, placido were walking through a park, and were confronted by someone who, by appearance, was less than desirable, but as it turned out later was a nonbeliever, would you pray with him/her, tell them about Jesus, or would you walk by? And if you have no feelings, when you are at service, are you then like robots?

 

[1beleevr]

placido: You do shut people out of your religion, unless they meet the criteria to be a member! And I respect and honor the Bible, because it is the inerrant Word of God, not because it is a “catholic doctrine” as you say! Since your religion was not formed until the NT times, you can’t claim the entire Bible as your private domain! The OT was written by Jews, and youse guys may have helped put the two together!

 

[tmac1956]

Rom 8:1 “There is therefore NOW no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus”. No sin a believer can commit past, present or future can be held against him, since the penalty was paid by Christ and righteousness was imputed to the believer. And no sin will ever reverse this divine legal decision. Now that is Good News. Now that doesn’t mean that we should go out and commit sin. Hope this helps you God Bless

So you get all of that from Rom 8:1? You state: “No sin a believer can commit past, present or future can be held against him, since the penalty was paid by Christ and righteousness was imputed to the believer.” What about blaspeming the Holy Spirit?

Mark 3:29
“But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.” That seems to contradict your position. There are many other verses in the bible that clearly indicate one can lose ones salvation.

 

[davidv]

elvisman: I think the point that I am trying to make, is that during those services at catholic churches, I felt and saw the love FOR God, but I didn’t feel the love OF Christ!

Since Jesus is God, love of God is love of Jesus.

Now, you have made it clear, that when you are in your worship, complete with sad, sullen, solemn music, that you block out everything around you! And as far as becoming a catholic, it seems that you are either born into it(cradle catholic, that is so cute!) or for whatever reason, you convert! I do partake of communion, the same way that Jesus and His disciples did:thumbsup:And purgarory is still a catholic doctrine, not a God or Christ doctrine!

Since the Church is the Body of Christ, Church doctrine is God’s doctrine.

Peace be with you, and all the blessings of our Lord and Saviour, my brother in Christ! Are you really saying that Jesus shut people out of His “circle?” He didn’t preach love for each other, and welcome in children, lepers, blind men, bums, etc.?

 

[elvisman]

One thing is for sure; we are both stubborn for our faith! And we save our socializing for afterwards also, but we do greet each other, same as the early believers did! And when I say that we partake of communion like Christ and His disciples did, I mean we each partake of the bread and cup, not have someone put a wafer on our tongue, or drink solel from the cup(priest). You continually violate Matthew 7:1-5, when you judge those outside of your exclusive society! I am so glad that Christ welcomed all to come to Him:thumbsup: Because of that, I have the promise of eternal life.

During the Mass - we greet each other as well during the Sign of Peace.

As for the host and the cup - we take both species. I don’t understand why you continually persiste in this lie that we don’t.

Nobody is violating Matt. 7:1-5, but as I indicated earlier - YOU are violating Luke 10:16. If anything, when you persist in your spiritual pride, I am called upon to turn my back on you (Matt. 10:14-15). According to John 7:24, - we are commanded to judge rightly.

Lastly - Christ did and does invite all to join him - but some of you made up your own conditions along the way.

 

[1beleevr]

elvisman: So, you are saying that every time you judge someone, it is correct? W-O-W! Let me ask you this: Why would anyone, (I know you wouldn’t) invite a noncatholic friend, or even a non believer to a catholic service? And you persist in the lie about purgatory, when our Lord does not teach it(doesn’t call it "purgatory, does He?) And you can’t really buy someone out of it, right?

 

[elvisman]

elvisman: So, you are saying that every time you judge someone, it is correct? W-O-W! Let me ask you this: Why would anyone, (I know you wouldn’t) invite a noncatholic friend, or even a non believer to a catholic service? And you persist in the lie about purgatory, when our Lord does not teach it(doesn’t call it "purgatory, does He?) And you can’t really buy someone out of it, right?

First of all - when you judge rightly, you judge rightly. If somebody is sinning, it is your DUTY to point that out. However, it is NOT our duty to condemn the person - that is up to God. Also - not ALL judging is good. If you don’t know that by know - I suggest you read the Scriptures.**

Secondly, it is perfectly fine to invite a non-Catholic to Mass. When I got married, I invited MANY non-Catholics to the Mass. Why WOULDN’T a Catholic invite a non-Catholic to Mass??
I really don’t see your point here.

Lastly - part of the reason you don’t believe in Purgatory is because Jesus doesn’t use the word, “Purgatory”?? That is a really silly argument.
Do you believe in the Trinity? Because he doesn’t use that word in ALL of Scripture. How about the Bible? THAT word is never used either.
Remember - just because you reject the doctrine of Purgatory, doesn’t mean it’s not the truth.

 

[placido]

placido: You say that the catholic church does more than all other churches. Are you talking about evangelizing, feeding the homeless, having Bible studies for children and adlts, etc,.? If you, placido were walking through a park, and were confronted by someone who, by appearance, was less than desirable, but as it turned out later was a nonbeliever, would you pray with him/her, tell them about Jesus, or would you walk by? And if you have no feelings, when you are at service, are you then like robots?

Like robots? No ways. What I am saying is that a Catholic Mass is not a “feel good” exercise. How one feels about music or a hymn is not a criteria to determine what is true.

placido

 

[placido]

placido: You do shut people out of your religion, unless they meet the criteria to be a member!

Yes, did Jesus not teach the same? Are you sugesting we accept as members even those who refuse to believe Jesus is the Messiah?

And I respect and honor the Bible, because it is the inerrant Word of God, not because it is a “catholic doctrine” as you say!

If that is the case, then you will be in a position to find for me, in your Bible, the phrase “the Bible is the inerrant Word of God”. Don’t forget to provide the chapter and the verse.

Since your religion was not formed until the NT times, you can’t claim the entire Bible as your private domain! The OT was written by Jews, and youse guys may have helped put the two together!

That is exactly what we mean. The Bible did not exist untill our “guys” helped put the OT and the NT together, making the Bible a Catholic product.

placido

 

[placido]

And you persist in the lie about purgatory, when our Lord does not teach it(doesn’t call it "purgatory, does He?) And you can’t really buy someone out of it, right?

We are moving out of topic, but let me say this.
I think you err by putting all the emphasis on the word “purgatory” itself instead of the doctrine. It is like concentrating on the word “Bible” or “Trinity”. Jesus never called Scriptures “the Bible”, yet you believe the Bible is “the inerrant Word of God”; Jesus never called the God-head “the trinity”, yet we believe in the Holy Trinity.
Instead of looking for the word “purgatory” in your Bible, rather try to understand what the teaching is all about. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified”.
This is the final purification of the elect, entirely different from the punishment of the damned.
But why is this purification necessary?
It is because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.
BTW, Catholics don’t believe in buying someone out of purgatory. That is a lie.

placido

 

[AwGusTeen]

elvisman: So, you are saying that every time you judge someone, it is correct? W-O-W! Let me ask you this: Why would anyone, (I know you wouldn’t) invite a noncatholic friend, or even a non believer to a catholic service? And you persist in the **lie **about purgatory, when our Lord does not teach it(doesn’t call it "purgatory, does He?) And you can’t really buy someone out of it, right?

Stop the ad hominem attacks. Surely you can make your point without that intellectually vapid technique.

 

[guanophore]

It’s kinda sad, actually, that some would need a crucifix to remind them of Christ’s sacrifice Hebrews tells us that,…“He died once for all!”

Why is it sad for you that people need reminders? Not everyone has a constant image of Christ in their mind and heart like you do. Some people feel very distant from God at times. Such a statement seems to reflect a lack of compassion for the needs of those who are unlike you. You have a Bible, and fellowship, and some don’t have these things. The use of the crucifix developed during the Apostolic kerygma:

Gal 3:1
3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

It sustained people during the years when there was no bible, or people did not have scriptues because they took so long to copy, and were so expensive. This is one of the reasons for all the non-literary elements of Christianity, the statues, icons, stained glass windows, etc.

Yes, He died once for all, and meditating on His death brings us into communion with Him in it.

Matt 10:38-39
38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

Matt 16:24-26
"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life?

This is what brings meaning to our experience of suffering.

 

[guanophore]

You said right yourself in that once you die then judgement. There is no place for purification. You either die with Christ and go into his presence or without Him and go to Hell.

There are two errors in this statement. One is that you are assuming that the purging is separated from the presence of Christ, and it is not. Why would those who have left “this body of death” be less close to God than we are here? That makes no sense. You are right, though, purification is not a “place” but a state. Like heaven and hell, it exists outside of the time space continuum. However, Jesus cannot allow anything impure to enter heaven. I know there are saintly people in this life, but I have never met anyone who was "perfect’ and had completed sanctification before death. We all fall short of the glory of God.

That is so against Gods Word to teach purgatory.

I am sure it seems this way to you, since you only have a portion of His Word, and are missing significant elements of the Apostolic Teaching.

Do you realize that since we all sin and have fallen short of the glory of God that we would all have to go through purgatory.

I am glad we are agreement on this point.

It wouldn’t matter how many masses you have attended, the good works you have done throughout your life and confessing your sins to a priest. You still would likely have to go to purgatory before being granted intrance into heaven.

Well, yes an no. Those in purgatory have already been granted entrance to heaven. Only the saved go there.

Do you know that the word gospel means “Good News”. Does it sound like “Good News” to you that you can attend over a thousand Masses throughout you life and still die not fully purified from sin.

Why is that not good news? Jesus cleansed His Apostles by His Word! They listened to Him daily for three years. How is that not “Good News”? All that God does for us, in this life and the next to cleanse us and conform us to His image is “good news”. Do you believe that you are perfectly holy, and have no remnant of the “old man” left in you?

Now in contrast Paul writes Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God; not as a result of work, that no one should boast”. Now doesn’t that sound like “Good News”. When Jesus died He said, “It is finished” Jn 19:30 Jesus completed the work of redemption at the cross.

Yes, it is His grace that purifies us, and makes us fit for heaven. It is not anything we do for ourselves. While in this life, we can participate in the call to holiness. Jesus part of the sacrifice was complete, but not ours.

Rom 12:1
“I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.”

Our work is to take up our cross daily, and follow Him. This is His commandment to us.We do not do this by the power of our own flesh, but by grace, through faith.

Phil 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

It is possible to join with Him in His suffering and death because He is at work in us.

No purgatory is needed for those who trust in God.

Well, we read it differently. For those who have the Apostle’s teaching, we know that we are graced with Purgatory BECAUSE of our trust in Him. We know that He who began a good work in us will bring it to completion. You see, we believe that Jesus did not just “declare” us righteous, but wants us to BE righteous.

Read these verses and ask yourself what they mean to you. Jn 17:4 “I have brought you glory on earth by COMPLETING the work you gave me to do”.

His eternal sacrifice is completed, once in time, for all time. He completed HIs course. It remains for us to complete ours.