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heiscominginthe
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I already started the thread on once saved, always saved.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=344824
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=344824
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elvisman
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Well, that’s about as immature a response as I’ve read yet.elvisman:Thank you, you just revealed your tru nature, with your response to the story about being ignored at catholic churchesIhope you are not speaking for the majority of catholics, although there are a couple of friends at work, who remind me of you! So, where is the love of Christ in your response? And tell me this; why did the farmer go after the one lost sheep? He had 99 others, so what if one is missing. Is this parable a picture of God with us? Does He hang around waiting for us to come back to the fold? And it does say in 1Cor 3: 13-15, that even though a man endures the fire, he will be saved! Do me a favor, don’t tell me where your church is
OSAS
My point is that whether ot not you went to a friendly parish is besides the point. The truth is the TRUTH - whether or not the people of that particular parish were nice to you or not. The truth of Jesus’ only Church will stand whether in spite of you or individual unfriendly members.
**By the way - 1 Cor. 3:13-15 is about final purgation - yes, PURGATORY. **
How about that? Another Catholic doctrine - based in Scripture - that you reject . . .
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Bill_Pick
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It would be a strange thing if GOD had given us an infallible
book without giving us an infallible interpreter.
book without giving us an infallible interpreter.
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freedomwriter
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cmon elvis 1 Cor. 3:13-15 is not talking about purgatory lol. Its talking about one’s rewards when they get to heaven. The works they have done on earth will be tested by fire.
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SHW
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During the three days that Jesus was in the tomb, He preached to the “spirits in prison” which is purgatory. These “prisoners” were the persons who repented right before they drowned (when the floods came upon them while Noah was in the ark).
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
Purgatory:
1 Cor. 3:13-15 is only speaking of the just, not the unjust. Purgatory cleanses the just soul by fire, but does not destroy the soul. He “suffers loss”, but is still “saved.”
Hell:
John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Fire does not cleanse the sins from the unjust souls, it “destroys” the unjust souls instead and they end up in hell. They cannot be purged of their mortal sins, so instead are thrown into hellfire forever.
When a person dies, he is tested by the Consuming Fire (God). (Hebrews 12:29) If the person does not have mortal sins on his soul when he dies, then he is purged of his venial sins, if he has any on his soul, before he can enter heaven. He is saved, but his venial sins are purged from his soul by the cleansing fires of purgatory. (1 Cor. 3:13-15) He receives his reward for all the works that are not burned up, but still remain after the test by fire, since these are good works and worthy of reward.
If the person has mortal sins on his soul when he dies, then his soul is thrown into hell and burned. God’s consuming fire destroys him and he is condemned to hell for eternity. (1 Corinthians 3:16-18)
If a person defiles his temple/soul with mortal sin and does not confess and repent before death, then God destroys/condemns him and he cannot ever inherit eternal life. He spends eternity in hell instead.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
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guanophore
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Dear one, that is exactly what Purgatory is!
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freedomwriter
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No such thing as purgatory guano. I have asked over and over again for scripture that states purgatory or even alludes to it. I have yet to get a scripture or seeing where Jesus or the apostles talk about it. I think i will stick to the word of God instead of some tradition. Thanks anyway. God Bless
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onenow1
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quote= onenow1, Here’s the word of God. Phillipians 1: 6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Peace and God bless onenow1
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guanophore
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Well, we read it differently, don’t we? Yo uare right, though, the Catholic Church believes that it is appointed to man once to die, and after that, the judgement. Those who are being purified are even closer to the Lord than we are here on earth, as they have been separated from the “body of death” and they know that their souls are destined to be in His presence for ever.
What you don’t seem to understand yet, freedom, is that the entire NT is a product of Catholic Sacred Tradition (the teachings of the Apostles). When you say “stick to the Word of God” you are referring to a product of Catholic Sacred Tradition.
This is like saying “there is no such thing as the Trinity, since I cannot find it in scripture”. and in fact, some have said this, and used scripture to back up their claims.
The truth is that Evangelicals believe in purgatory too, as you just admitted above when you defined purgatory. You just don’t call it that, because it sounds too " Catholic".
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elvisman
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WRONG.
Paul is speaking of suffering loss. He then goes on to say that the person will be saved but “only as through fire”. He doesn’t say that the person IS saved but that they WILL be - but only AFTER this purgation.
In other words, they haven’t made it into heaven because nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27). They make it in ONLY after suffering loss through purgation.
You read but you do not understand, my confused friend.
Again - you are dead wrong here. St. Paul never says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This is one of the most misquoted scriptures used by Protestants to try and debunk the notion of a final purgation.
What St. Paul says is that we would prefer to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. He DOESN’T say that as soon as we are absent from the body we are with the Lord.
KJV
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
NIV
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
NASB
We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Tell me something: You reject the idea of final purgation - but what do you make of Matt. 12-32?
"And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
If nothing unclean can even enter heaven - how can their be the act of forgiveness in heaven. EVERYTHING has to be forgiven BEFORE entering. The only alternative is that your uncleanliness is purged BEFORE you get into heaven. This is why the Protestant author, C.S. Lewis said: "God’s mercy demands Purgatory."
Regardless of what many Protestants believe - God is not a moron who can be fooled into allowing “snow-covered dunghills” (as Luther put it) into heaven because they are disguised by Christ’s righteousness. Ge MAKES us righteous before entering heaven.
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davidv
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OK.
I asked “what sin is not deliberate?” in response to your post that implied that sin can be accidental.
The Church’s, and my, position is that sin is always a deliberate act, thought or inaction. One cannot sin unknowingly, at least as a deliberate rejection of God.
Yes, that is the only way sin is a sin. Again, please explain what sin doesn’t require this kind of thinking.Do you ever find yourself saying,"I don’t care what God thinks, I’m going to sin today, and that’s that!
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SHW
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Scripture does not mention the “Trinity” either, yet we can tell by studying Scripture that God is indeed a Trinity. The “prison” mentioned in Scripture which held the repentant sinners who drowned while Noah was in the ark, is where Jesus went to preach during His three days in the grave. Their sins were being purged in this prison. This is how this prison eventually came to be called purgatory. Jesus also went to see the just souls in the Bosom of Abraham. These souls were not being purged as they had already been purified or else they never needed purification.
Of course, when a person dies, he is present with the Lord; either that or he is condemned to hell. He is indeed present in the Lord either in heaven if he is perfect or else he is being purified by Christ Himself while his sins are being purged in purgatory. God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29) Every person is judged immediately upon death and his final abode, heaven or hell, is determined at that time.
The General Judgment at the end of time is for everyone to see what transpired at our own individual judgments and to see how God’s mighty Salvation Plan was accomplished even though He respected man’s own free will choices. God intervenes in “time” when it suits His own purpose, but He never compromises man’s own free will choices in order to accomplish His own will.
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heiscominginthe
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Thank the Lord we have both.
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elvisman
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Yes, thank God for the ONLY Church he established - his Catholic Church!
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guanophore
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I think they are also thrown by the word “purgation”. It is a Latinization of “saved only through fire”, but it has a “Catholic” connotation, so is often rejected outright.
Well, I think he understands it differently because he is reading the scriptures with anti-Catholic lenses on.
I think Paul does say that to be absent from this earth is to be present (for him) with the Lord. However, I think it is a misunderstanding that those in purgatory are not present with the lord. They are at least as present with Him as we can be here, and probably more so, since they are not limited by this body of death. They also have the hope of heaven in a way that we may not. To say that those who are being purged are not experiencing he presence of God is the error, I think. Why would they have even less a sense of His presence than we do here?
It may have been revealed to him that he would be. We must bear in mind that he had visions of heaven about which he was never permitted to speak.
He may have been able to say this because he received a lot of purgation here in this life.
This is a good scripture to bring up in the discussion of purgatory. It does seem that sins can be forgiven in the age to come.
I think this last point is the most salient. All Protestant theology influenced by Calvanism and the notion of total depravity will embrace the notion that we are “declared justified”, rather than actually justified. Most Protestants accept the Apostolic Teaching that we must be sanctified (actually made holy) in addition to “declared” holy. It is difficult to get them to articulate, though, what happens to those areas of our lives that are not completely sanctified at death.
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1beleevr
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placido: That’s an easy one to answer, about the comparison between the Cross, and the wedding picture I would tell my son/daughter, that daddy onlyhad to wear his “wedding suit”, as you call it for one day:thumbsup: Then tell him, we keep the picture as a reminder of that glorious day! It’s kinda sad, actually, that some would need a crucifix to remind them of Christ’s sacrifice
Why doesn’t your corpus have bruises, and blood on it
Hebrews tells us that,…“He died once for all!”
I would tell my son/daughter, that daddy onlyhad to wear his “wedding suit”, as you call it for one day:thumbsup: Then tell him, we keep the picture as a reminder of that glorious day! It’s kinda sad, actually, that some would need a crucifix to remind them of Christ’s sacrifice Why doesn’t your corpus have bruises, and blood on itHebrews tells us that,…“He died once for all!”
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tmac1956
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A passion crucifix does have blood, bruises, etc. on the corpus. It’s difficult to indicate this on a metal crucifix.snip… Why doesn’t your corpus have bruises, and blood on it
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davidv
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Have you ever see crucifixes from South American countries? I have, at St Johns Abbey church, in Collegeville, MN. They quite are gruesome.placido: That’s an easy one to answer, about the comparison between the Cross, and the wedding picture
Humans need reminders of many things, everyday. Why would elements of our faith not be in the same category?
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freedomwriter
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You said right yourself in that once you die then judgement. There is no place for purification. You either die with Christ and go into his presence or without Him and go to Hell. That is so against Gods Word to teach purgatory. Do you realize that since we all sin and have fallen short of the glory of God that we would all have to go through purgatory. It wouldn’t matter how many masses you have attended, the good works you have done throughout your life and confessing your sins to a priest. You still would likely have to go to purgatory before being granted intrance into heaven. Do you know that the word gospel means “Good News”. Does it sound like “Good News” to you that you can attend over a thousand Masses throughout you life and still die not fully purified from sin. Now in contrast Paul writes Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God; not as a result of work, that no one should boast”. Now doesn’t that sound like “Good News”. When Jesus died He said, “It is finished” Jn 19:30 Jesus completed the work of redemption at the cross. No purgatory is needed for those who trust in God. Read these verses and ask yourself what they mean to you. Jn 17:4 “I have brought you glory on earth by COMPLETING the work you gave me to do”. 1 Jn 1:7 says “the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from ALL sin”. Rom 8:1 “Therefore, there is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” You see we are cleansed not by some alleged fire of purgatory but by the blood of Jesus Heb 9:14. Jesus Himself is the propitiation for our sins 1 Jn 2:2. Heb 10:14 " For by one offering He has PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are sanctified. In other word not purging is necessary. As far as the NT being catholic teaching, that has already been debunked. Sadly that is what tradition does for you. It is not even scriptural. Please read the verses slowly. I hope this helps you in your study of God’s Word. I have more on purgatory if you need more help. God BlessWell, we read it differently, don’t we? Yo uare right, though, the Catholic Church believes that it is appointed to man once to die, and after that, the judgement. Those who are being purified are even closer to the Lord than we are here on earth, as they have been separated from the “body of death” and they know that their souls are destined to be in His presence for ever.
What you don’t seem to understand yet, freedom, is that the entire NT is a product of Catholic Sacred Tradition (the teachings of the Apostles). When you say “stick to the Word of God” you are referring to a product of Catholic Sacred Tradition.
This is like saying “there is no such thing as the Trinity, since I cannot find it in scripture”. and in fact, some have said this, and used scripture to back up their claims.
The truth is that Evangelicals believe in purgatory too, as you just admitted above when you defined purgatory. You just don’t call it that, because it sounds too " Catholic".
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