Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner: At the risk of upsetting guanophore, I would like to extend our discussion about the Sabbath! I know, that like me, and many others, guan observes the Sabbath on Sunday! I want to ask point blank, because you say that if you observe the Sabbath on any other day, but Saturday, you miss God’s blessing; who designated that Saturday was the Sabbath(named the day), God or man? The bible says, the seventh day; so I guess someone could pick any day, count forward seven days, and say,"Today’s my Sabbath

Hello 1beleevr
guanophore seems to always be upset about something, but if you will read this post again I believe it makes it clear that the Sabbath the bible is talking about is Saturday.

As to which day is the Sabbath. Well we know that the Jews keep the Sabbath and they keep Saturday. But the way we can know for sure is
Gen 2:3 identifies God’s blessed day as the seventh day.
Ex20:11 identifies the seventh day as the Sabbath
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
and luke 23:53-24:1 Makes the Sabbath Saturday
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
24:1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

It says here that Jesus’ body was taken down from the cross and laid in the tomb on the preperation day. We know this day to be Friday. We call it Good Friday. It says in v. 56 that they rested on the Sabbath day. This would be the day after the Preperation day, which would be Saturday. It should also be noted that Jesus Himself kept the Sabbath by resting in death in the grave. In ch. 24 v. 1 It says they came back to finish their work on the first day or Sunday. Now if Jesus had changed the commandment to Sunday would this not have been an opportune time to confirm that. Instead they keep the Sabbath just like they always have.

I am also aware that in Spanish, at least, the word “Sabado”, means both, Saturday, and Sabbath. God was not specific in scripture, as to the Sabbath(which also means “rest”), being Saturday! I applaud and respect all Christians who spend a day, whatever day, observing the Sabbath, being obedient not so much to the exact day of the week, but what the Sabbath is about!

Do you think that God would command us to keep the seventh day Sabbath Gen 2:2-3 & Ex 20:11 and then not give us a way to know for sure which day that is? I don’t think He would. To say that you observe the Sabbath, which as you say in some languages means both rest and Saturday, on Sunday, would be about the same as saying you are going to keep Monday on Friday. You can do that, but what would be the point? If you are going to keep a day holy why not keep the one that God says to keep holy?

I have heard, that the reason most Christians observe the Sabbath on Sunday(or Sonday), is because it is the day of the week, supposedly, when Jesus rose from the grave!

How do you know that Sunday is Sunday? The way we know this is the same way we know the Sabath is Saturday and that is because God wants us to know it.

Was talking to a woman, who as it turned out, was an SDA, at a function for Jesus Shack; a faith-based organization, which serves communities, in His name! She was rebuking me for not observing the “real” Sabbath! This was on a Saturday. I turned to her, and asked,“Then what are you doing here, today?”. She got up and walked away, never speaking to me the rest of the day,…hmmmmm!

Altho, I believe that the Sabbath question is one of the most important topics in these last days of this planet. It should always be talked about in the spirit of brothership and love that Christ intended for us to talk to one another in, Something I know I’m still working on.

 

[1beleevr]

davidv: I don’t know, you tell me! Do you ever find yourself saying,"I don’t care what God thinks, I’m going to sin today, and that’s that!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; and no one can snatch them out of my hand.” Do we sin, yes. Does this cause loss of salvation,???. If it did, we’d have to get saved all over again, possibly every day! OSAS

I don’t believe that anyone is questioning your sincerity or your conviction that you are saved, at least I hope not. What I have a problem with is this idea of OSAS Which means I take it once saved always saved. This doctrine at least on the surfface would seem to go against scripture. What I hear this saying is that once you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, your free will is then taken away and now you have no choice any more as to whether or not you go to heaven. (If I am wrong, please explain.) I would call your attention to Ezekial 18:24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

We certainly know or should know that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

However there is one way that we can be seperated from Him (not from His love) and that is through our own choice.
Isaiah59:1Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

 

[guanophore]

Richard Kastner: At the risk of upsetting guanophore, I would like to extend our discussion about the Sabbath!

Oh, that won’t upset me at all! In fact, I already had a lively discussion with him about it. It is off topic in thie thread, though. I suggest it take place in the non-Catholic religions section, since both of you are non-Catholic, and do not want to address any Catholic apologetic issues on it.

I know, that like me, and many others, guan observes the Sabbath on Sunday!

On the contrary, Catholics are not sabbatarians, and do not observe the Jewish Sabbath. We observe The Lord’s Day, which we understand to be Sunday. This has nothing to do, however, with Christ being our only Mediator, except that we consider to have entered into the Sabbath Rest when we entered into Him. He is our rest. Jesus re-iterated all the commandments in the decalogue but the Sabbath, because He fulfills this in Himself, as our Mediator, and the Source of our rest.

 

[1beleevr]

Richard Kastner:And on we go! Once again, did God name the days, or did man; I’m going with man On each occasion that Jesus was challenged by the Pharisees,for working on the Sabbath, are we to assume it was Saturday? And Jesus(God), working on the Sabbath, would that contradict His own commandment, rendering Him a hypocrite? In Luke, it says, that they rested, as required by the Law! Because of Christ’s finished work on the Cross, are we not bound by the Law, yet because of grace, have a better understanding of the Law(thank you, Paul) And speaking of Paul, the following verses come to mind, where he addresses the Sabbath, and other previous Jewish laws and rituals: Romans 14:5-6, Colossians 2:16-17, Galatians 4:10. Am I saying that these verses justify my not observing the Sabbath on Saturday? Not at all; just offering a view from the New Covenant! Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not abolish; and also to free us from the bonds of the Law. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive to keep the Ten Commandments(an almost impossible task for us Christians), and serve Him(Mark 10:45) and share Him with others! When you find evidence that God named Saturday, Saturday, let me know. Meanwhile, please continue to observe the Sabbath on the day that you do. God did say, as you pointed out:“Six days shall thy work, but on the seventh day, you must rest from your work!” Do any SDA’s have jobs, which require them to work on Saturdays? Could they claim religious freedom?

 

[guanophore]

Hello 1beleevr
guanophore seems to always be upset about something,

Not at all Richard! I welcome, and search out your posts because they give me such a wonderful opportunity to confront departures from the Apostolic Teaching, and to reiterate the True Gospel as it was committed by them, to the Church. This is a different Gospel from the one that has been invented in the last century. It is important for people to know the difference.

. It should also be noted that Jesus Himself kept the Sabbath by resting in death in the grave.

Except that Scripture testifies that He was up, about, and very busy during that time!
He was “mediating” salvation for the imprisoned souls.

If you are going to keep a day holy why not keep the one that God says to keep holy?

Well said! :clapping:

Altho, I believe that the Sabbath question is one of the most important topics in these last days of this planet. It should always be talked about in the spirit of brothership and love that Christ intended for us to talk to one another in, Something I know I’m still working on.

Yes, but please talk about it elsewhere.

 

[1beleevr]

guanophore: As far as the title of this thread goes, YES, Jesus is our only ‘mediator’ to the Father(John 14:6). Others can and do pray for us, but I don’t believe that they can intercede for or represent us before God:thumbsup:

 

[guanophore]

What I have a problem with is this idea of OSAS Which means I take it once saved always saved.

A great topic! One that also needs to go on a different thread. Are we done here? Have all here agreed that Catholics don’t believe anyone can mediate salvation for us outside of Christ’s sacrifice of blood on the cross?

 

[1beleevr]

Hey, Bill Pick, Let’s say you’re a pastor, and a six(6)year old asks you:"If Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, why is He still on the Cross?(providing that the child had seen a crucifix, containing a corpus). How would you explain it to him/her?

 

[elvisman]

elvisman: If it please the court, for the defense:1beleevr Well. well, the mighty elvisman has spoken, and I should be shaking in my boots, I supposeAfter reading your post, a word which stood out to me, was DELIBERATELY; as in sin deliberately! Of course, you would be rejected, if you DELIBERATELY sinned, after you had known grace! It would be tantamount to abusing the privilege, or taking it for granted! Listen, even though I am ignorant and naive, I know that salvation is a lifelong process. And even though at different times in the Bible, it says things like,“For all who call upon the Lord, shall be saved,” and John 3:16, etc., I know that God is constantly refining us through trials, tribulations,obedience/disobedience, until He has us like He wants us. But in order for Him to work on us, He must have us in the “fold”. When we come to Jesus, for forgiveness, and “salvation”, it is step one; we are “saved” from the slavery of sin, and spiritual death. We are still prone to sin, because I do not believe our sin nature is removed! Even Paul said,“For it is not I who sins, it is the sin within me.” Being covered by the blood of Christ, and God’s incredible grace, we are His, and there is nothing we can do to make Him love us more, nor anything we can do to make Him love us less.And as far as this repetitive use of Matthew 7:21,“Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, Shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven,” is becoming rather tedious I asked someone, earlier, if it was posible, that Jesus was addressing so-called"wannabes", you know, those who pretend to follow Him, knowing that He is the only Way to Heaven. Salvation is not, nor should it be approached as an easy, or simple process! I have been “saved”(let the record reflect, Your Honor, that parentheses are used for the benefit of the prosecution) for 42 years, and have had many people over that span of time, challenge not only the sincerity of my salvation, but the degree of my faith! Thanks to the amazing peace, which Christ gives me, I am able to “turn the other cheek”.Do you remember how in the NT, many of the Jewish believers wanted to turn back to their own ways, thus rejecting their new faith? Some Christians are like that. Even though they have been raised in the church, saved and baptized,they get caught up in the world, and abandon their faith, and may even become atheists! To you, I may be separated from the catholic church, but I know, without any doubts, that I am not eparated from Jesus! The few times that I have been invited to, and attended cathoilc churches, I have felt like a foreigner in a foreign land. Not many speak to you, and you are reminded, that you cannot do this, and cannot do this, unless you are catholic! Good thing Jesus didn’t treat people like this, huh? all of your scriptures are rather impressive, itis obvious that you are schooled well in using the Bible, but Jesus also said,“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; and no one can snatch them out of my hand.” Do we sin, yes. Does this cause loss of salvation,???. If it did, we’d have to get saved all over again, possibly every day! OSAS

First of all - what sin is not deliberate?? ALL sin is deliberate - that’s why it is sinful.

Secondly, nobody can snatch you out of God’s hand - but you can jump out of his hand anytime you wish. That’s called “free will”. The scripture passages I showed yopu illustrate this very explicitly.

**Lastly - if you visited an Catholic Church and nobody spoke to you - so what? Is that your criteria for deciding where the truth is? **

As for everything else - the only thing you can’t do during a mass as a non-Catholic is receive Holy Communion. WHY would you want to anyway? Receiving is a sign that you are in full communion with the Catholic Church and her teachings. I wouldn’t receive in your church for that very reason.

 

[guanophore]

guanophore: As far as the title of this thread goes, YES, Jesus is our only ‘mediator’ to the Father(John 14:6). Others can and do pray for us, but I don’t believe that they can intercede for or represent us before God:thumbsup:

I read a post of yours that I thought said you were involved in the intercessory at your church, and that you understood intercessory prayer. Did I mix you up with someone else? What does it mean to “intercede” and how is that different from praying for others?

If one person cannot “represent” before God, or from God to man, why does St. Paul claim to be and “ambassador for Christ”. Is that not the function of an ambassador?

 

[guanophore]

Hey, Bill Pick, Let’s say you’re a pastor, and a six(6)year old asks you:"If Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, why is He still on the Cross?(providing that the child had seen a crucifix, containing a corpus). How would you explain it to him/her?

The Apostles publicly portrayed Christ as crucified. His death on the cross is why we boast.

I understand the reason you use an empty cross, but that is not what was committed to the church by the Apostles, so we do not change the traditions we received from them.

I also understand about focusing on the resurrection. We just are not at liberty to alter that which was entrusted.

 

[1beleevr]

elvisman:Thank you, you just revealed your tru nature, with your response to the story about being ignored at catholic churches Ihope you are not speaking for the majority of catholics, although there are a couple of friends at work, who remind me of you! So, where is the love of Christ in your response? And tell me this; why did the farmer go after the one lost sheep? He had 99 others, so what if one is missing. Is this parable a picture of God with us? Does He hang around waiting for us to come back to the fold? And it does say in 1Cor 3: 13-15, that even though a man endures the fire, he will be saved! Do me a favor, don’t tell me where your church is OSAS

 

[1beleevr]

guan: All Christians should boast in the crucifixion; but should rejoice more in the resurrection, as it is the foundation of our salvation! Sure, the blood shed on the Cross, is what washes our sins away, and our pastor teaches crucifixion and resurrection! Tell me, did the apostles carry around crucifixes, or a cross with a body on it, representing our Saviour! I guess it all depends on how you view it. I see an empty cross, not as my forgetting(how could I ever?) the brutality He suffered! Do we need to carry a replica of the World Trade Center towers, as they appeared on that day, to remember the horror of that day? Faith Does Not Dwell In The House Of Certainty:thumbsup:

 

[1beleevr]

Although there are many definitions for the words, mediate, mediator, and mediation, the one thatstood out to me, was:Mediate:To interpose between parties(God and us) in order to reconcile them:thumbsup: While I don’t feel the need to show all definitions, Jesus wasn’t just blowing smoke, when He said,“No one comes to the Father, but through Me!” Can others pray for us, and we for them? Of course, we can pray to God through Jesus, for anyone, and they can do the same for us(james 5:16) “The effectual prayer of a righteous man, availeth much.” Mary has already been elevated to quite a lofty position, so to suggest that she may be a mediatrx for Christians, is a stretch! I believe it diminishes Christ I can’t make myself believ that intercessory prayer(which I am a part of) is on a level with mediation. As we pray, anointing with oil, and laying hands on(James 5:14), we lift them up to Jesus, not Mary And as far as confession goes, it is okay to say,“Forgive me Lord Jesus, for Ihave sinned!”

 

[SHW]

Hey, Bill Pick, Let’s say you’re a pastor, and a six(6)year old asks you:"If Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, why is He still on the Cross?(providing that the child had seen a crucifix, containing a corpus). How would you explain it to him/her?

We show Jesus’ Body on the cross as a reminder to us that God’s own Son’s death was necessary in order for us to be able to be happy with Him in heaven forever after we die. I would then say that Jesus died for us because He loved us and wanted us to be able to live with Him in heaven, but we could not ever get into heaven until He died on the cross for us because heaven’s gates were locked. They were locked because Adam, the first man who ever lived, disobeyed God and only Jesus, and no one else, could open the gates of heaven again by dying on the cross for us…

1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,

1 Corinthians 2:1-2
And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Galatians 5:24
And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Luke 9:23
Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Matthew 10:38
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

An “empty” cross is not the main focus of the Bible.

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

Ephesians 5:2
And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

**
Christ’s sacrifice on the cross** is how He showed His love for us and the gospel of Christ preaches mainly Christ “crucified,” not mainly Christ “resurrected.” There is no love without sacrifice and there is no salvation without sacrifice.. We represent Jesus’ Body on the cross so that we are reminded to imitate Him every day of our lives so that we can inherit eternal life when we die. We all must take up our crosses daily in order for us to be found worthy after death and be approved for the crown of eternal life.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

 

[placido]

1beleevr:

Hey, Bill Pick, Let’s say you’re a pastor, and a six(6)year old asks you:"If Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, why is He still on the Cross?(providing that the child had seen a crucifix, containing a corpus). How would you explain it to him/her?

Let’s say you are a married man and your six years old son asks you, “father, you say you married my mother eight years ago, but in this picture you are still wearing your wedding suit … why is that so?” I know how you would explain that one … use the same explanation for the crucifix.

placido

 

[guanophore]

Tell me, did the apostles carry around crucifixes, or a cross with a body on it, representing our Saviour!

Yes.

Gal 3:1-2
Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

This has been one of the unbroken Sacred Traditions delivered to the Church by the Apostles. It is a practice that has been preserved in all the Churches founded by Apostles. It is understandible that you would not know this, since your spiritual ancestors separated from these Apostolic Traditions about 500 years ago. There was no way for you to keep the commandment to follow them, since you were not aware of them.

I guess it all depends on how you view it.

I think this is very true for Sola Scriptura folks. This principle is the foundation of faith. For Catholics, however, it is about what is True. Our perceptions (“how you view it”) are expected to conform to what has been revealed to us by God. We are commanded to receive the implanted word from the Church, and to conform ourselves to it, not to try to grasp the Truth by our own perceptions and point of view. It is one of the most fundamental differences between Catholics and evangelicals. We receive from the Apostolic Succession, and SS folks glean from Scripture and traditions of man, usually emanating from the Reformation.

I see an empty cross, not as my forgetting(how could I ever?) the brutality He suffered! Do we need to carry a replica of the World Trade Center  towers, as they appeared on that day, to remember the horror of that day?       Faith Does Not Dwell In The House Of Certainty:thumbsup:

We see an empty cross too, but we are not at liberty to jettison what has been committed to the Church, and about which we have been charged to hold fast.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Hey, Bill Pick, Let’s say you’re a pastor, and a six(6)year old asks you:"If Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, why is He still on the Cross?(providing that the child had seen a crucifix, containing a corpus). How would you explain it to him/her?

well I,m not a pastor,so you tell me how you can take a piese of wood and tell a child about Our Lord.

 

[Bill_Pick]

well I,m not a pastor,so you tell me how you can take a piese of wood and tell a child about Our Lord.

Maybe they think you are talking about the theif with out a body how does a child know who you are talking about, a pictureis worth a 1000 words
Do you take a blink pictures of a child great grandmother and try to show them how she looked.