Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[heiscominginthe]

You are declared the winner by the pope, by the Holy Spirit, by the Father (God not Catholic Priest), Jesus, the Apostles and all the saints of all the ages; I give up and it is unforunate for me because I will be in hell for all eternity because I just don’t see Catholicism in Scripture. It been nice knowing everyone; hope I don’t see anyone there with me, i hear it is real hot and weeping and gnashing of teeth as my conscience bears witness for all eternity the erros of my way, but with good intentions. God, please have mercy on my sad and pathetic soul.
:sad_bye:
:bighanky:
:tanning:
:coolinoff:

While none have come out and said directly that I too will end up in hell since not being catholic, many have strongly hinted that I too will not make it to the kingdom of God.

Yet, scripture tells us that a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. This I am sure has happened to me without doubt. So I am insured by my heavenly Father though his Word that I will make it into heaven, regardless of what others may judge. And the Words of the Lord come to mind here in that to judge is to be judged.

As for who I believe goes to heaven or hell, that is up to God. I do know for sure that a man must be born again to get into heaven. Yet, I believe the number who are born anew that will lose their salvation for their love of sin will be greater then those who retain their salvation. For it is written that the road to heaven is narrow and few will find it.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[heiscominginthe]

The Catholic Church does not teach us to worship Mary with the same worship which we give to God. two things to be said…

1)Mary is praised with human acknowledgment and reflection, not in the sense of supreme Good and Holiness as God deserves.

2)The Catholic Churches recognizes that some of her children are apt to “Mary excessiveness” which can become sinful idolotry if she is placed above Almighty God.

Do you think Mary should be worshipped at all? Is that not idoltry?

 

[elvisman]

Hey Elvis; tell it to the writers of the website, perhaps they would enjoy your corrections. I guess worship doesn’t mean worship; even in the subordinate. At least the site is honest about it, which you are not. Why do you deny your faith?; are you ashamed of it; it appears you are. You won’t admit you work your way; yet I provided from you own sites to the contrary; yet you still deny it; you must be ashamed of your faith. Or you know better than they.

No -the quotes you provided and the sources are pretty accurate.
**The only difference between them and me and you is that we understand the language that is being spoken - and you don’t. I would say it’s more a case of you refusing to understand because don’**t come off as ignorant - just spiritually prideful.

Oh, by the way one is not sinful - while the other is, I’m afraid to say.

 

[Peter29]

Do you think Mary should be worshipped at all? Is that not idoltry?

Venerating Mary is not worship.

 

[jlhargus]

Hey Elvis; tell it to the writers of the website, perhaps they would enjoy your corrections. I guess worship doesn’t mean worship; even in the subordinate. At least the site is honest about it, which you are not. Why do you deny your faith?; are you ashamed of it; it appears you are. You won’t admit you work your way; yet I provided from you own sites to the contrary; yet you still deny it; you must be ashamed of your faith. Or you know better than they.

JL: Well I see you have not even listed the name of your faith group. Are you ashamed to openly tell us you are a member of Calvary Chapel Outreach?

 

[zerinus]

I have stated over and over on this thread that the Church DOES consider Jesus our only intercessor - in that only HIS sacrifice before the Father is what saves us. . . .

I never said that you or the Church don’t. What I said was that asking the “saints” to intercede on your behalf is contrary to the biblical teaching that Jesus is the only intercessor assigned, and the only one you will ever need.

James 5:16 tells us that we SHOULD pray for each other because "The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful".

Sure; but what has that got to do with praying to saints in heaven?

Are YOU truly righteous? Is Tanner? Am I? NO - but those in heaven have been made righteous because nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rev 21:27**).**

That is nonsense. James was referring to righteous people here on earth, not in heaven. He was referring to the healing of the sick by anointing with oil and the prayer that accompanies it. Then he mentions the example of Elijah who, although he was weak and infirm like the rest of us, his prayers were so effective that he could shut or open the heavens.

Rev 5:8 illustrates that those in heaven are interceding to the Father on our behalf.

I think you have misunderstood that verse too. That is easy to do with the Revelation of John, which involves a lot of symbolism. The “vial” symbolizes the “prayer of the saints”. That is more likely to mean the prayers of the saints on earth rather than in heaven.

Heb. 12:1 tells us to live accordingly because "we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses" (not “dead people”).

Didn’t get that one.

**Furthermore - **1 Timothy 2:1–4, Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25 and 2 Thess. 3:1 ALL speak to the importance of intercessory prayer.

These all refer to prayers here on earth, not in heaven. How does that justify you to pray to saints in heaven?

Your problem - like MANY anti-Catholics on this board including Tanner, 1beleevr is that you all consider those in heaven to be merely “dead people” and NOT members of the Living Body of Christ.
Shame on everybody who holds this position.

Dead people? Well, in one sense they are dead people! But seriously, dead or alive we are not required to pray to them. That is not a requirement of the gospel, and indeed contrary to the basic tenets of it.

**Lastly, you haven’t read the earlier posts in which the fact that prayer is NOT **reserved for God alone was pointed out. Ignorance is the only reason somebody would come to this conclusion.

That is true. It is a long post, so I haven’t read all of it. If there is a particular post that think I should read, give us a link and I will read it. I am familiar with the Catholic arguments on this subject though, and I doubt if I have missed anything by not reading the entire thread.

There are prayers of confession, gratitude, worship and adoration, etc., that are reserved for God alone. Prayers for help and inquiry are made daily by you and other anti-Catholics when you ask favors of somebody.
Crack open a dictionary and you’ll see what is lacking in your understanding of the English language.

I was familiar with that argument, and had already addressed it in one of my posts earlier on. There is a big difference between asking your friend here on earth for a favor, and praying to a saint.

 

[elvisman]

I never said that you or the Church don’t. What I said was that asking the “saints” to intercede on your behalf is contrary to the biblical teaching that Jesus is the only intercessor assigned, and the only one you will ever need.

Sure; but what has that got to do with praying to saints in heaven?

That is nonsense. James was referring to righteous people here on earth, not in heaven. He was referring to the healing of the sick by anointing with oil and the prayer that accompanies it. Then he mentions the example of Elijah who, although he was weak and infirm like the rest of us, his prayers were so effective that he could shut or open the heavens.

I think you have misunderstood that verse too. That is easy to do with the Revelation of John, which involves a lot of symbolism. The “vial” symbolizes the “prayer of the saints”. That is more likely to mean the prayers of the saints on earth rather than in heaven.

Didn’t get that one.

These all refer to prayers here on earth, not in heaven. How does that justify you to pray to saints in heaven?

Dead people? Well, in one sense they are dead people! But seriously, dead or alive we are not required to pray to them. That is not a requirement of the gospel, and indeed contrary to the basic tenets of it.

That is true. It is a long post, so I haven’t read all of it. If there is a particular post that think I should read, give us a link and I will read it. I am familiar with the Catholic arguments on this subject though, and I doubt if I have missed anything by not reading the entire thread.

I was familiar with that argument, and had already addressed it in one of my posts earlier on. There is a big difference between asking your friend here on earth for a favor, and praying to a saint.

Are you for real? Do you actually read what you write or do you just praddle on?
Do you know of one, single solitary Catholic teaching that says we are REQUIRED to ask the saints in heaven for help - because I DON’T.

We are not required to ask each other for help nor are we required to ask those in heaven. BUT - it is efficacious for us to do so. We ARE told to pray for one another, bu we aren’t told that we have to ask for prayer. I think that is is really stupid for somebody NOT to ask a fellow member of the Body of Christ for prayers - but it is up to the individual.

Okay - one LAST time:
Jesus IS the only Mediator, in that only HIS sacrifice can make our peace with the Father and save us. HOWEVER - we are ALL intercessors the minute we pray for one another.

As for the Rev. 5:8 reference - I KNOW that it refers to the prayers of the saints on earth - that is the WHOLE point I’m trying to get across to you.
Those in heaven are presenting OUR prayers to the Father. They are INTERCEDING for US.

You STILL don’t understand the word, “Pray” - even though I have taken the time to paste the several meanings of that word and all of the various definitions.

You and other anti-Catholics on this board fancy yourselves biblically savvy, so let me ask you this:
**Can you show me ONE place in all of scripture where it tells us NOT to ask members of the Body of Christ NOT to pray for us if they are no longer on earth? **
Can you show me ONE place in all of Scripture where it says that they are worthless, functionless, impotent members of the Body of Christ - or that they aren’t even members of that Body?

**If you can produce one - I’ll become a fellow anti-Catholic today and join your ranks.

 

[Ignatius]

I believe you stand corrected; unless the Pope was/is wrong. This was the tip of the iceberg. Some of the other things highlighted is enough to make me gag.

My beloved brother in Christ, your misunderstanding of intecessory prayer is amazing.

Go in peace and may God bless you.

 

[Tanner9188]

Venerating Mary is not worship.

**The pope and the bishops are the proper authorities to act in these matters, for to them belongs the regulation of worship, both public and private, and it is the duty of every Catholic to abide by their decision.

The Catholic devotions which are connected with holy places, holy shrines, holy wells, famous relics, etc. are commonly treated as superstitious by non-Catholics who either reject all worship of saints and relics or assume pious frauds on the part of the priests who benefit by the worship. It must be admitted that these hallowed spots and things have occasioned many legends; that popular credulity was in some cases the principal cause of their celebrity; that here and there instances of fraud can be adduced; yet, for all that, the principles which guide the worshipper, and his good intentions, are not impaired by an undercurrent of errors as to facts**.
**
There are several degrees of this worship:

• if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
• When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

---

In accordance with these principles it will readily be understood that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent.

Why do your own writings use the word worship; because veneration is a subordinate form of worship. It is obvious to anyone anyway; so why not be honest and just say we do; so what? We work to; so what. there is nothing to hide or be ashamed about is there?**

**Defined:
hyperdulia -Veneration or worship given to the Virgin Mary as the most exalted of mere creatures; higher veneration than dulia

dulia - An inferior kind of veneration or worship, given to the angels and saints as the servants of God

veneration: c.1410, from M.Fr. veneration, from L. venerationem (nom. veneratio) “reverence,” from venerari “to worship, revere,” from venus (gen. veneris) “beauty, love, desire” (see Venus). Venerate (v.) is first recorded 1623, from L. veneratus, pp. of venerari**

 

[Tanner9188]

My beloved brother in Christ, your misunderstanding of intecessory prayer is amazing.

Go in peace and may God bless you.

Let me see; you pray to Mary to intercede on ones behalf in hopes she will share your prayer with her son. Is that correct?

If not, then give the sequence,thanks

 

[guanophore]

**1 Tim3:16 "By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

eusebeia is not a term used for the church as you just inserted into Scripture; thus changing the contextual meaning. ekklēsia is the term used for church.**

So, what are you saying?

1 Timothy 3: 15, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the HOUSEHOLD of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR and BULWARK of the TRUTH.

The household of God is NOT the church? because two different words are used?

I think you are just really stretching to avoid the fact that the Apostles taught that there is One Church, that it is the household of God, and that it is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

 

[guanophore]

Did any one else notice that blatant contradiction?
Heiscominginthe is TEACHING us that the Holy Spirit is our TEACHER.
Is Heiscominginthe the Holy Spirit? If not, why is he TEACHING us?

placido

Heis does believe that he has the unction of the HS, and that He speaks God’s truth, and that if we don’t agree with what he perceives scripture to mean,then we have strayed from the HS.

I think he is not trinitarian, though, and does not believe the HS is really a person.

 

[Tanner9188]

Heb. 12:1 tells us to live accordingly because “we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses” (not “dead people”).
Didn’t get that one.
I was familiar with that argument, and had already addressed it in one of my posts earlier on. There is a big difference between asking your friend here on earth for a favor, and praying to a saint.

Let me help you with that one. Start by looking at Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Whenever you see the word “therefore”; it always refers to what was just said before the “therefore”. So now we go to Hebrews 11 and keep in theme in mind as shown above in blue . The cloud of witnesses are those example in Chapter 11, the heroes of the faith, that not only showed their faith, but there perseverance to the faith to finish the race and gain the reward!.

Paul made a similar analogy in:
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but {only} one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then {do it} to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

 

[Tanner9188]

JL: Well I see you have not even listed the name of your faith group. Are you ashamed to openly tell us you are a member of Calvary Chapel Outreach?

Member of the church of Christ, the body of believers, started on the day of Pentecost.

 

[guanophore]

Nothing concerning the things of Scripture could satisfy you; isn’t that part of why you are Catholic; so they can do the work for you?

FYI, this is one of those condescending and insulting remarks that you are prone to make.

I am not sure who “they” are that are doing the “work for you”. The work of the bishops is to preserve and promulgate the Apostolic Teachings. The work of the laity is to study to show themselves approved.

It is joyful work discovering the depths of God in Scripture. Unless you are of the belief that the Church possesses the Holy Spirit and not the individual when it came to faith and practice and knowledge and wisdom of Scripture.

I agree that is is a joyful work discovering the depths of God in Scripture. However, your “either /or” mentality is erroneous. CAtholics do not believe it is “the church and not the individual”. It is both. Individuals are prone to error when they depart from what the HS has already revealed to the Church. This is how heresies happen. The individual is encouraged to read, study, memorize and apply the scriptures, but not to depart from what has been handed down to us from the Apostles.

As far as though that claim the Name of Christ and the indwelling, truly saved; there is no way for you to discern; so you are left with what the Catholic Church teaches you concerning Scripture.

I fail to see how it is that Catholics have any less access to discernment than you would. This is another example of a condescending statement. These types of statements interfere with your dialogue with Catholics, and put up barriers to communication.

 

[guanophore]

What is the therefore there for in verse 1 of chapter 12? It always go back to what was just written and explained before the “therefore”. Therefore; what is the “cloud of witnesses” the writer is referring to? All the examples of faith and endurance of those mentioned in the whole of chapter 11…right James?..right Elvis?..right br2?..right guanaphore?..right to the rest?

This is all about the faith, which the grace God’s gives to strengthen the saints to persevere to the end as an example to all who have faith in God.

Indeed yes. The great cloud of witnesses are those who are looking on (the communion of saints). These have gone before us in faith, washed their robes in the blood of the lamb, and triumphed over the world, the flesh, and the devil.

 

[guanophore]

I assume you are referring to the event at the Mount of Transfiguration. Jesus there was not “praying” to Moses and Elijah; but being the Son of God was able to summon them! Two different things.

Yes, I was referring to the transfiguration. Jesus was conversing, which is what Catholics mean when they say “praying to the saints”. It is conversing with those who have gone on before us in the faith.

When you refer to Jesus “summoning” it sounds like some sort of divination or necromancy!

Even so, that does not explain how it is they knew what was going on here.

Furthermore: Moses and Elijah were not in fact dead! Elijah was taken to heaven without tasting death; and we (LDS) believe that Moses also had the same experience (although not mentioned in the Bible).

Catholics believe that all who are “in Christ” live foreever, so no, they are not “dead”. We do not pray (converse with ) the dead, but the living, just as Jesus did.

As for Saul talking to Samuel, that was actually a sin. It was done through a woman who had a “familiar spirit,” i.e. a soothsayer, which was a sin.

I think it would be helpful to read the passage again. Saul tried to contact Samuel through a medium, which is considered a sin. However, the woman was a fraud, and was shocked when Samuel really appeared.

Samuel appeared because God allowed him to do so. He spoke to Saul about events occurring on earth, because God allowed him to do so.

Are you comparing the Catholic practice of praying to the Saints to Saul’s conjuring up the spirit of Samuel?If you are, then maybe you have a point. It could be that both of them are equally sinful!

I agree. No, I am saying that the event proves that those who have gone before us in the faith are alive, and are able to not only know what is going on here, but can converse with us about what they know. This is from God.

Can you give references for that? I am not sure what you are referring to here.

Yes, this is what I was referring to when I said about studying the history of your faith. You will find that these beliefs, taught to the church by the Apsotles, are preserved in the liturgies and writings of the Fathers.

“Communion of the Saints” is not the same thing as “praying to the dead”. There is no such doctrine taught in the scriptures.

Well, I agree on both counts. The communion of the saints is the permanent eternal joining of those who are members of the Body of Christ. The Apostles taught that those who are still here on earth are not spiritually separated from those who have gone before. The Apostles also taught that those who are “in Christ” are “alive foreevermore”.

I also agree that there is no such doctrine as “praying to the dead” in scripture. This would be a useless activity, and as you pointed out, some for of necromancy that is strictly forbidden.

 

[zerinus]

Are you for real? Do you actually read what you write or do you just praddle on?
**Do you know of one, single solitary Catholic teaching that says we are REQUIRED **to ask the saints in heaven for help - because I DON’T.

Then you must be hard of hearing (or seeing). In that same sentence I also said that praying to the saints is contrary the tenets of the gospel. That means that it is not only not required but also not permissible. Praying to God is a requirement in the gospel. But praying to the saints in heaven is not only not required, but also not permissible. Is that any clearer?

We are not required to ask each other for help nor are we required to ask those in heaven. BUT - it is efficacious for us to do so. We ARE told to pray for one another, bu we aren’t told that we have to ask for prayer. I think that is is really stupid for somebody NOT to ask a fellow member of the Body of Christ for prayers - but it is up to the individual.

Hard of hearing (or seeing) again. I have no argument against asking your friend here on earth anything. But that does not translate into praying to the saints in heaven. How else am I supposed to say it so that you might understand?

Okay - one LAST time:
Jesus IS the only Mediator, in that only HIS sacrifice can make our peace with the Father and save us. HOWEVER - we are ALL intercessors the minute we pray for one another.

Maybe; but that does not make praying to the saints in heaven to intercede on your behalf permissible under the gospel of Jesus Christ.

As for the Rev. 5:8 reference - I KNOW that it refers to the prayers of the saints on earth - that is the WHOLE point I’m trying to get across to you.
Those in heaven are presenting OUR prayers to the Father. They are INTERCEDING for US.

I don’t think the symbolic meaning of those passages in the Revelation can be understood as you are trying to understanding it. But even if it was, it still would not justify the act of praying to saints in heaven.

You STILL don’t understand the word, “Pray” - even though I have taken the time to paste the several meanings of that word and all of the various definitions.

I think I know the various meanings of the word pray perfectly; the fallacy you are committing is mixing up the different meanings of the word to justify your inadmissible act of praying to saints in heaven.

You and other anti-Catholics on this board fancy yourselves biblically savvy, so let me ask you this:
Can you show me ONE place in all of scripture where it tells us NOT to ask members of the Body of Christ NOT to pray for us if they are no longer on earth?
Can you show me ONE place in all of Scripture where it says that they are worthless, functionless, impotent members of the Body of Christ - or that they aren’t even members of that Body?

***If ***you can produce one - I’ll become a fellow anti-Catholic today and join your ranks.

A member of the body of Christ here on earth, no problem; but in heaven, big problem. Petitioning any other being in heaven other than God is idolatrous and contrary to the commandment of God. It may not look like that t you; but in essence that is what it is. There are lots of practices that are in essence idolatrous, but may not look like it outwardly. Paul tells us that being covetous is idolatry (Colossians 3:5); but I am sure a covetous person wouldn’t think that he was being idolatrous.

 

[zerinus]

Let me help you with that one. Start by looking at Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Whenever you see the word “therefore”; it always refers to what was just said before the “therefore”. So now we go to Hebrews 11 and keep in theme in mind as shown above in blue . The cloud of witnesses are those example in Chapter 11, the heroes of the faith, that not only showed their faith, but there perseverance to the faith to finish the race and gain the reward!.

Paul made a similar analogy in:
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but {only} one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then {do it} to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Your “help” was pretty useless unfortunately. When I said, “I didn’t get that one,” I did not mean that I did not understand the meaning of the verse quoted. I meant that I could not see how it related to the subject at hand, i.e. praying to saints in heaven.

 

[placido]

placido: I think we have a difference of opinion between evangelizing, and witnessing! If a catholic has gone through confirmation, been saved and then baptized, then evangelizing would be excess verbiage, as evangelizing, means to preach the Gospel in an attempt to convert someone to Christianity!

But that is exactly what some noncatholics are doing. You have, e.g. “Christians Evangelizing Catholics”, the “Southern Baptist Manual On Evangelizing Catholics”, etc. However, I am happy you are not here to evangelize.

placido