Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[Tanner9188]

Your “help” was pretty useless unfortunately. When I said, “I didn’t get that one,” I did not mean that I did not understand the meaning of the verse quoted. I meant that I could not see how it related to the subject at hand, i.e. praying to saints in heaven.

Sorry; it looked like you did not understand the passage as you wrote it and it does relate to the topic because Elvis and others use the “cloud of witnesses” as proof that saints can hear us.

I was only trying to help you out as you are speaking to concrete walls and I have agreed with much of what you have written, but next time I will just keep it to myself unless I am addressed specifically.

God bless.

 

[Tanner9188]

**Not that anyone cares, but if I have not responded to your question in this thred, then send me the question via PM.

I’m done posting to this thread; so God bless every and hope you have a fantastic day and week!**

 

[zerinus]

Yes, I was referring to the transfiguration. Jesus was conversing, which is what Catholics mean when they say “praying to the saints”. It is conversing with those who have gone on before us in the faith.

Conversation is a two way process. Do Catholics hear anything back when they pray to the (dead) saints? In any case, some people call it a conversation when they pray to God; so where does conversation end and prayer begin? I think you are playing with words here to sow confusion.

When you refer to Jesus “summoning” it sounds like some sort of divination or necromancy!

It could be! I suppose it all depends on who is doing it. When God does it, it is okay; when a witch does it, it isn’t.

Even so, that does not explain how it is they knew what was going on here.

Who knew what was going on where?

Catholics believe that all who are “in Christ” live foreever, so no, they are not “dead”. We do not pray (converse with) the dead, but the living, just as Jesus did.

We don’t think they are dead either—in that sense of the term. But that doesn’t justify us in praying to them.

I think it would be helpful to read the passage again. Saul tried to contact Samuel through a medium, which is considered a sin. However, the woman was a fraud, and was shocked when Samuel really appeared.

Samuel appeared because God allowed him to do so. He spoke to Saul about events occurring on earth, because God allowed him to do so.

I don’t think that we know enough about the practice of soothsaying to try to justify the actions of Saul.

I agree. No, I am saying that the event proves that those who have gone before us in the faith are alive, and are able to not only know what is going on here, but can converse with us about what they know. This is from God.

I am sure that is possible, but not as you envisage. We believe Spirits are very much alive, and that communication between them and us in this world is possible when God allows it. That communication can take place in a dream, by an open vision, by a spoken voice, or by any other means that God may chose. In fact we believe that ministering angels are righteous men (and women) who have died, and are now in heaven, and are able to act in that capacity either as resurrected beings (angels) or as “spirits of just men made perfect” in the spirit world, who are still awaiting a resurrection. So when you are bing ministered to by an angel, you are in fact communicating with “the dead”. We think that all the angelic ministrations mentioned in the Old and the New Testaments were of this kind. None of this, however, provides a theological justification for “praying to the saints”. You pray directly to God; and He will send you an angel (a saint!) to converse with you and help you out of your problem if you have one. But the reverse doesn’t work—you don’t pray to the saint in order to get a better hearing with God.

Peter, James, and John then continued to teach for the rest of their lives that we can have conversation with those who have gone on before us in faith. How do you account for this?

Can you give references for that? I am not sure what you are referring to here.

Yes, this is what I was referring to when I said about studying the history of your faith. You will find that these beliefs, taught to the church by the Apsotles, are preserved in the liturgies and writings of the Fathers.

A great non-answer! Thank you.

Well, I agree on both counts. The communion of the saints is the permanent eternal joining of those who are members of the Body of Christ. The Apostles taught that those who are still here on earth are not spiritually separated from those who have gone before. The Apostles also taught that those who are “in Christ” are “alive foreevermore”.

I entirely agree with that. It doesn’t justify us praying to the saints though.

I also agree that there is no such doctrine as “praying to the dead” in scripture. This would be a useless activity, and as you pointed out, some for of necromancy that is strictly forbidden.

Well thank you for agreeing with me that praying to the saints is a pretty useless activity, at best.

 

[onenow1]

A member of the body of Christ here on earth, no problem; but in heaven, big problem. Petitioning any other being in heaven other than God is idolatrous and contrary to the commandment of God. It may not look like that t you; but in essence that is what it is. There are lots of practices that are in essence idolatrous, but may not look like it outwardly. Paul tells us that being covetous is idolatry (Colossians 3:5); but I am sure a covetous person wouldn’t think that he was being idolatrous.

All men from the beginning were part of the Catholic Church,even if no one believes this. If it is not true evidence must be provided as to the name of the one Church Jesus instituted.:yup:

"I am the GOD of Abraham, and the GOD of Isaac, and the GOD of Jacob.
I am not the GOD of the dead but of the living."Mt 22:32, Mk 12:26-27

"And behold, two men were talking with Him. And these were Moses and Elias, who,appearing in glory, spoke of His death, which He was about to fulfill in Jerusalem."Lk 9:30-31.

What’s really amazing is they are talking about the future.

"And I tell you that many will come from the east and from the west, and will feast with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."Mt 8:11

"In which also He went and preached to those spirits that were in prison."1Pet 3:19.

They were spirits, yet they lived, and He preached to them.

" And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth."Rev 5:8-10

“And with the prayers of the saints there went up before GOD from the angels hand the smoke of the incense.” Rev 8:4.

The prayers of the Saints. 2cents worth

Peace and God bless onenow1

 

[Breynolds12]

You know I had a friend at work, who was Calvary Chapel, we talked alot and she was interested in what I believed in being a Catholic, and the funniest thing one day she asked me so what does a Catholic do once you have taken Jesus as your Lord and Savior? I looked at her for a minute and said the same thing all the rest of the Catholic do, we all believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior,from our Baptism… this is what we are up against, I would of like to have heard the conversation between her and her preacher after that, she is a very nice lady but I believe it was Bishop Fulton J. Sheen who said out of all the people who hate the Catholic Church maybe 50 of them actually understand it, I feel sorry for them that they are so against something so beautiful because of there prejudges, we must pray and have Patience Peace

 

[jlhargus]

Member of the church of Christ, the body of believers, started on the day of Pentecost.

JL: You and I both know that isn’t ture, don’t we Kevin? Otherwise you could give us names and writtings of your leaders through the centuries. Please just give the name of ONE leader in each century from Christ. You can’t even give ONE for any century before1960 as belonging to a Calvary Chapel Fellowship.

You shouldn’t accuse others of being ashamed of their faith if you are ashamed to indentify yourself with your particular faith group. Why do you deny your faith group?

 

[heiscominginthe]

Heis does believe that he has the unction of the HS, and that He speaks God’s truth, and that if we don’t agree with what he perceives scripture to mean,then we have strayed from the HS.

I think he is not trinitarian, though, and does not believe the HS is really a person.

I believe in God Amighty, our Heavenly Father, the Holy Spirit. I believe in his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. I believe it is not robbery to call the Son God, for the Father has given him his spirit without measure.

There is only one God. He is the Father of all Creation.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word.
The bible tells us that Jesus Christ is the Word of God. In the beginning God begat his Son the Word, even before he created the heavens and the earth. And by the Son the Word of God, and through the Son the Word of God, God spoke all things into existence through the ministry of his Holy Spirit. God begat his Son who is the expressed image of the Father, a life unto himself. John 5:25

And the Word was with God. God begat his Son the Word, and God was a Father unto the Son and Jesus was a Son unto the Father.

And the Word was God. God the Father gave his Son his Holy Spirit without measure. The Son did only the will of his Father. Thus, making him God, for it is written, no man cometh unto the Father, but through the Son. In Hebrews 1, the Father himself refers to the Son as God so who do we do any less.

When all things have been brought into submission, the Son will offer up the kingdom unto his Father where he will relinquish the authority of the Godhead given him by his Father to do his will. For there is only one God. 1 Cor. 15:24-28

 

[Bill_Pick]

I remember as a yound man My Father was the boss of the house, but I also remember I would ask My Mother if dad lets me use the car this weekend, and the answer was all ways a yes, I use my Mother as a “intercessory” for me. so why cant I use Mary to do the same with Jesus,

 

[jlhargus]

**The pope and the bishops are the proper authorities to act in these matters, for to them belongs the regulation of worship, both public and private, and it is the duty of every Catholic to abide by their decision.

The Catholic devotions which are connected with holy places, holy shrines, holy wells, famous relics, etc. are commonly treated as superstitious by non-Catholics who either reject all worship of saints and relics or assume pious frauds on the part of the priests who benefit by the worship. It must be admitted that these hallowed spots and things have occasioned many legends; that popular credulity was in some cases the principal cause of their celebrity; that here and there instances of fraud can be adduced; yet, for all that, the principles which guide the worshipper, and his good intentions, are not impaired by an undercurrent of errors as to facts**.
**
There are several degrees of this worship:**

• if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
• When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

---

In accordance with these principles it will readily be understood that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent.

Why do your own writings use the word worship; because veneration is a subordinate form of worship. It is obvious to anyone anyway; so why not be honest and just say we do; so what? We work to; so what. there is nothing to hide or be ashamed about is there?

**Defined:
hyperdulia -Veneration or worship given to the Virgin Mary as the most exalted of mere creatures; higher veneration than dulia

dulia - An inferior kind of veneration or worship, given to the angels and saints as the servants of God

veneration**: c.1410, from M.Fr. veneration, from L. venerationem (nom. veneratio) “reverence,” from venerari “to worship, revere,” from venus (gen. veneris) “beauty, love, desire” (see Venus). Venerate (v.) is first recorded 1623, from L. veneratus, pp. of venerari:thumbsup:

You are supposed to post the link you used, I would like to read it.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;5528189:

My beloved brother in Christ, your misunderstanding of intecessory prayer is amazing…

Let me see; you pray to Mary to intercede on ones behalf in hopes she will share your prayer with her son. Is that correct?

If not, then give the sequence,thanks

Again? OK, here’s the link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5523547#post5523547

Every Protestant denomination uses Intercessory prayer in their churches. Just as Paul asked the church to pray for him or you might ask your congregation to pray for you. We do to same thing but we include the whole church; Church Militant, Church Suffering and Church Triumphant! One does not cease to be a member of the Body of Christ when he becomes separate from the body but together with Chist.

Go in peace and may God bless you

 

[heiscominginthe]

I remember as a yound man My Father was the boss of the house, but I also remember I would ask My Mother if dad lets me use the car this weekend, and the answer was all ways a yes, I use my Mother as a “intercessory” for me. so why cant I use Mary to do the same with Jesus,

Wow, I don’t think we can compare your Dad and Mom with God. You are trying to compare earthly things with spiritual things.

Show one place, one in the bible that says it is alright to pray to Mary of intercession. It does say we are to pray through the Holy Spirit who knows our hearts and can pray the perfect prayer, intercedeing for us.

 

[Ignatius]

Wow, I don’t think we can compare your Dad and Mom with God. You are trying to compare earthly things with spiritual things.

Ah! I see you hadn’t heard. The Word was made flesh of the Virgin Mary and became man. He walked the earth in the flesh and by sacraficing Himself in the the flesh and rising again in the flesh He atoned for our sins.

Every Protestant denomination makes use Intercessory prayer in their churches. Just as Paul asked the church to pray for him or you might ask your congregation to pray for you. We do to same thing but we include the whole church; Church Militant, Church Suffering and Church Triumphant! One does not cease to be a member of the Body of Christ when he becomes separate from the body but together with Christ.

If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at chnetwork.org/. I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him. And He is faithful and sure to keep His promises. Repent, turn to the Gospel and be saved and you will have everlasting life.

Grace and peace be with you.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Wow, I don’t think we can compare your Dad and Mom with God. You are trying to compare earthly things with spiritual things.

Show one place, one in the bible that says it is alright to pray to Mary of intercession. It does say we are to pray through the Holy Spirit who knows our hearts and can pray the perfect prayer, intercedeing for us.

hiscominginthe, I was thiing the threas was about prayer and you make a remark about my Mother and DAD Does this show your ignort or are you trying to be funny,I was showing intercessory pray. You do know what interecssory pray is right…I WAS NOT COMPAING MY MOTHER OR FATEHR TO ANY ONE AND DID NOT SAY I DID. Your like them non-cathloic denomination that are from a very small group that just don,t understand the bible well,Have a good night and hope to talk later

 

[elvisman]

Then you must be hard of hearing (or seeing). In that same sentence I also said that praying to the saints is contrary the tenets of the gospel. That means that it is not only not required but also not permissible. Praying to God is a requirement in the gospel. But praying to the saints in heaven is not only not required, but also not permissible. Is that any clearer?

Hard of hearing (or seeing) again. I have no argument against asking your friend here on earth anything. But that does not translate into praying to the saints in heaven. How else am I supposed to say it so that you might understand?

Maybe; but that does not make praying to the saints in heaven to intercede on your behalf permissible under the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I don’t think the symbolic meaning of those passages in the Revelation can be understood as you are trying to understanding it. But even if it was, it still would not justify the act of praying to saints in heaven.
I think I know the various meanings of the word pray perfectly; the fallacy you are committing is mixing up the different meanings of the word to justify your inadmissible act of praying to saints in heaven.

A member of the body of Christ here on earth, no problem; but in heaven, big problem. Petitioning any other being in heaven other than God is idolatrous and contrary to the commandment of God. It may not look like that t you; but in essence that is what it is. There are lots of practices that are in essence idolatrous, but may not look like it outwardly. Paul tells us that being covetous is idolatry (Colossians 3:5); but I am sure a covetous person wouldn’t think that he was being idolatrous.

Again - Zerinus - you have closed your mind as well as your eyes and heart.
You have been shown the meaning(s) of the word pray and their context, and yet, you still refuse to understrand.

You cannot show me one single, solitary verse in all of Scripture that says the Body of Christ only exists on earth. I challenged you to show me where Scripture says thay are impotent and useless to us and you couldn’t come up with one shred of biblical evidence - and neither can your fellow anti-Catholics.

It appears that all you possess are opinions - and arrogance.

 

[elvisman]

Member of the church of Christ, the body of believers, started on the day of Pentecost.

That could only be the ONE Church established by Jesus Christ - the Catholic Church.

It can’t be any of the divorced factions from the Body of Christ that you might belong to because that would make Jesus a liar (Matt. 16:15-19).

Sorry, pal - can’t have it both ways!

 

[WASP]

:thumbsup:elvisman: Whether you believe it or not, you are anti-noncatholic; it is prevalent in most of your posts addressed to noncatholics! And in an earlier post, I wrote something which agrees with your take on salvation; that it is a lifelong process, complete with trials, tribulations, joys,growth, disappointments, sorrow, and ultimately death. I never sid that it was a P-O-O-F!, you’re saved because you repented, confessed asked God for forgiveness, and was baptized I am growing and learning from Him, every day!(Philippians 1:6). And being born-again is also a process, something that doesn’t happen overnight! Before the Holy Spirit became as prominent in my life, as He is, I was one, whom like many in this forum, on both sides, painted people with the same broad brush. Now, because of Christ’s influence in my heart, I am more able to see people as individuals, and not as having the same characteristics of the group they are in! Before I was born again, I would have probably walked by that beggar in the park, who not only needs food, but he needs the “Bread of Life”. Now, I stop and talk with them, eaching out in the Name of Jesus, showing them His love! I’m sorry that your sibs left the church; I know how, when you experience the unbridled love and joy of Jesus, you want everyone you know, including your family, to be a part of it. I come from family of eight children, and am gently, lovingly, steering them back to the throne of Jesus! Don’t you just love yhe fact that Hebrews 4:16, says that we can boldly enter the throneroom of grace, because of what Jesus did on the Cross?

When you say you are non-denominational, am I correct in thinking that you are Protestant? If so, your post is extremely confusing to me. …Mainly because you say that being born again is a process. Scripture teaches that Jesus’ sacrifice is sufficient to forgive all your sins (Rev. 1:5) and that when you believe in Christ, you pass from death to life (John 5:24).

At the moment of faith, you are born again. That begins a process of growth until one day, our sinful nature (flesh) will be removed in an instant (1 Cor 15:52). Our bodies will be made like Jesus (Phil. 3:20) and we will live with Him forever.

 

[placido]

Wow, I don’t think we can compare your Dad and Mom with God. You are trying to compare earthly things with spiritual things.

To explain spiritual reality we have to use earthly images, otherwise nothing will ever be clear to us.

Show one place, one in the bible that says it is alright to pray to Mary of intercession.

1. The Bible says it is alright for believers to ask other believers to pray/intercede for them;
2. Mary is a believer;
   THEREFOE: we can ask Mary to pray/intercede for us.
   You might come in and say “but she is dead”, and I would say, “whoever believes in Jesus will never die”.
   I hope now you get it.

placido

 

[guanophore]

You somewhat answered the first question and alluded to the second question:
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us.

I ask again? What are those traditions Paul refers to and be very specific and provide proof of your answer and I encourage anyone to answer this question.

These Sacred Traditions are called in the NT “The Way”. It is a way of life, a lifestyle, a world view taught by the Apostles. It includes the liturgy and spiritual practices:

Acts 2:42

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

The procedures for fellowship, sacramental life, prayers, and spiritual disciplines such as fasting, celibacy/abstinence, making reparation for sins, etc. All those Sacred Traditions that are still held in the Church today. These are to be distinguished from customs, or traditions of men, which are practices that do not come from the Apostles, such as praying the Rosary.

The main impact that these Sacred Traditions have today, especially in dialogue with our separated brethren, is that they inform and guide the manner in which we understand scripture. Jesus taught the Apostles and disciples how to understand the Scriptures, and they passed this on to their successors. During the Reformation, this perspective was abandoned, and replaced by the traditions of the Reformers.

 

[guanophore]

You or your church would have to impose upon the text of Scripture and deny what God, Himself, said in order to maintain that believe that Moses was just taken up.

No, the Church does not teach that Moses was "taken up’. What the Church does teach is that those who die in the Lord are alive and well, are aware of Him, us, and events here, to the extent that God wants them to be. You have failed to respond to the point, which is that Jesus made sure that the disciples were present when He had His little chat with Eli and Mo, so that they would understand by His example that this is possible.

You are 100% correct on this

No, talking to Samuel was not a sin for Saul. God does not facilitate sin.

The manner in which Saul attempted to do so certainly was wrong, but the fact is that the appearance of Samuel was at God’s discretion, not any work of a medium. A medium has no power to conjur the saints of God. They are forever protected from such evil. In fact, Samuel lays the blame squarely at the feet of Saul “why do YOU disturb my rest”?

Saul wanted guidance, but those who have gone on to the next life have rested from their labors.

100% correct!!

I am glad you finally recognize this!

 

[guanophore]

I never said Jesus was a weak evangelist; now you are putting words in my mouth!

That is the logical conclusion to your statement. If a person is properly discipled, they can never be “evangelized out” of their faith. If this were true, the Judas would not have fallen away, as he had the same training as the rest.

And for some reason, you guys call the pope holy father, when he is not; that title is reserved for the Almighty Living God!

He is not a “holy father” in the same sense that God is, of course. But, the term “holy” is “hagios”. It is used for objects and persons who are set aside unto God for a specific purpose. He is a “father” in the same sense that Paul became a “father” to those whom he discipled such as Timothy. This custom was inherited from the Jews, who referred to those who came before them in the faith as “fathers”.

Your comment implied that Catholics baptise in the name of the Pope, which I find insulting and unnecessarily inflammatory.

And no, I did not abandon Matthew 28:19-20, but there are some who believe in it, but don’t practice it! I will pray for you, my mixed up friend:thumbsup: And, believe me, I am a babe when it comes to evangelism, always learning, ever loyal to the Saviour!

Your not so subtle anti-Catholic insinuations are not lost on us, 1beleevr. You can profess your innocence, but your actions speak louder than your words.