Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[heiscominginthe]

Thank You for your answer and I see now I was rude me talking about my Mother and Dad I just read it the wrong way and for that let me say I,m SORRY I was not trying to be rude.
Do believe people that are in heaven are dead. see I believe we never die if we have Jesus in our heart and we make it to heaven and we are alive. So I think it is best you ask a person in heaven to pray with me,and YES I have pray to Mary because I believe She is in heaven, and most of My pray to Mary have been answerer because Jesus was listening. Do you remember the wedding in Cana.

Bill, those who die in the flesh, but a born again believers are called dead in Christ. For to be dead in Christ is to be alive in spirit and with him. The person is dead only in his flesh, for the flesh sleeps in the ground and aways the day of resurrection.

Unfortunately, you have many who read those who are dead in Christ and they believe the person is in the grave, both flesh and spirit/soul.

It is startling to find out how many religions preach this very thing. I have come across many. I have even come across a sect that believes we are not born again on earth, but saved only, and then born again once we leave these fleshly vessel. They believe the spirit is removed from the flesh and is resurrected into a new body the instance the suffer physical death.

Anyway, you did not have to apologize for anything. I was just afraid I may have upset you and that is not what I want at all.

 

[1beleevr]

Hey, Bill Pick: As for myself, I have never said that ANYONE could not use ANYONE else as a mediator; whether it’s your mother, or a friend, Mary, etc. What I personally have said, is it comes down to a matter of personal choice:thumbsup: And, were you not able to approach your father directly, as we are able, as Christians, and children of God, to approach our Father in Heaven, using Jesus as our mediator?(Hebrews 4:16)

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hey, Bill Pick: As for myself, I have never said that ANYONE could not use ANYONE else as a mediator; whether it’s your mother, or a friend, Mary, etc. What I personally have said, is it comes down to a matter of personal choice:thumbsup: And, were you not able to approach your father directly, as we are able, as Christians, and children of God, to approach our Father in Heaven, using Jesus as our mediator?(Hebrews 4:16)

Hey 1

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Suppose these verses are true and when you died you really did go down into silence, your thoughts really did perish, and the dead really did know nothing. If that is true and it certainly is because the bible says so then it would make a big difference whether or not these people were being used for a mediator. Because it would be a big waste of time for those praying to ones who couldn’t hear and for the ones being prayed for in that the ones being prayed to cannot hear. Also Jesus Himself teaches us to pray.
Matt6:9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
He tells us to pray to the Father. Noone else.

 

[1beleevr]

wasp: Non-denominational to me, means, not being a member of, or aligning myself with any major denomination; but you can call me Protestant , if you wish. And, did you use process and born-again in the same sentence? When we are born of the flesh(our first birth), we do not pop out all growed up We need nuturing, feeding, love, discipline, and direction! We stumble as we attempt to walk, and occasionally fall. Soon we learn how to pick ourselves up. When we are born again(of the Spirit), we are also, not grown up. We are fed, nurtured, loved, guided, and directed by the Spirit. Trials, tribulations, joys, disappointments, etc., are all part of our growth process in Christ(Philippians 1:6).

 

[1beleevr]

guan:Then, if the pope is not a holy father, as is God, there would be no need to capitalize it, right? And even though Judas was taught the same as the other eleven, he definitely had a different calling, and role, in God’s plan! He was destined to betray Jesus, from the get go! Let me ask you this; being the strong catholic that you are, could anybody evangelize you away from the catholic church?

 

[jlhargus]

Thence the Rosary takes us on to the Glorious Mysteries, wherein likewise is revealed the mediation of the great Virgin, still more abundant in fruitfulness. She rejoices in heart over the glory of her Son triumphant over death, and follows Him with a mother’s love in His Ascension to His eternal kingdom; but, though worthy of Heaven, she abides a while on earth, so that the infant Church may be directed and comforted by her “who penetrated, beyond all belief, into the deep secrets of Divine wisdom” (St. Bernard). … And behold, Mary is in the room, and there, praying with the Apostles and entreating for them with sobs and tears, she hastens for the Church the coming of the Spirit, the Comforter, the supreme gift of Christ, the treasure that will never fail. And later, without measure and without end will she be able to plead our cause, passing upon a day to the life immortal. Therefore we behold her taken up from this valley of tears into the heavenly Jerusalem, amid choirs of Angels. And we honor her, glorified above all the Saints, crowned with stars by her Divine Son and seated at His side the sovereign Queen of the universe.

If in all this series of Mysteries, Venerable Brethren, are developed the counsels of God in regard to us–“counsels of wisdom and of tenderness” (St. Bernard)–not less apparent is the greatness of the benefits for which we are debtors to the Virgin Mother. No man can meditate upon these without feeling a new awakening in his heart of confidence that he will certainly obtain through Mary the fullness of the mercies of God…we turn our prayerful voices to Mary. Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which We have spoken, and which St. Bernardine of Siena thus expresses: “Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us.”…For if thus we again and again greet Mary, it is precisely that our failing and defective prayers may be strengthened with the necessary confidence; as though we pledged her to pray for us, and as it were in our name, to God.

For this cause do we repeatedly celebrate those glorious titles of her ministry as Mediatrix. Her do we greet who found favor with God, and who was in a signal manner filled with grace by Him so that the superabundance thereof might overflow upon all men; her, united with the Lord by the most intimate of all conjunction; her who was blessed among women, and who “alone took away the curse and bore the blessing” (St. Thomas)

…the sweet feeling of St. Bernard: “Remember, O most pious Virgin Mary, that never was it heard that any who fled to thy protection, called upon thy help, and sought thy intercession, was left forsaken.” But the fruits of the Rosary appear likewise, and with equal greatness, in the turning with mercy of the heart of the Mother of God towards us

On the Rosary
His Holiness Pope Leo XIII
September 8, 1894

To the Partiarchs, Primates, Archbishops, Bishops, and other Ordinaries in Peace and Communion with the Apostolic See.​

I believe you stand corrected; unless the Pope was/is wrong. This was the tip of the iceberg. Some of the other things highlighted is enough to make me gag.

JL: You have my permission to gag, but I will rejoice in God my savior who through the intercession of the Great Mother of God brought me to the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Faith placing and blessing me as one of the gererations that will call her blessed, see my signature below. I remember telling you on another site, over a year ago, hatred of the Church will consume you. It can cause you to lose your faith altogether.

 

[jlhargus]

** That was very interesting to say the least. I wonder why Jesus didn’t take a knife and cut off 11-12 pieces of His flesh, then scoop the blood, that would result from the cutting of the flesh and give to disciples His blood…haven’t you ever wondered that? Does that sound ridiculous or is it just me?

In acts they speak of the new believers, the church, gathering together and breaking of bread. I wonder why they said breaking of bread instead of eating of flesh?

In John 6; I have always wondered why the disciples that took Him literally were the ones that walked away in unbelief, while His true disciples understood He was speaking in spiritual terms; they were the ones that understood and stayed; for even Peter said He had the WORDS of eternal life. He wasn’t the brightest bulb of the bunch; yet He understood.

I have often wondered how people connect the “Bread of Life” sermon with the Lord’s Supper; there is no correlation to the two unless you were one of those who walked away in unbelief; became an apostate and started your own cannibal christian church…have you ever wondered that?

I also find it interesting that His blood; even in the passages that speak of the Lord’s supper, always refer to His blood as representative of the New Covenant, which is the symbol of His pouring out of blood for an acceptable, once and for all, sacrifice for sins of the world.
“This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink {it,} in remembrance of Me.”

Then Jesus Himself said, " For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup**, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

Call me crazy, but I think He meant this in a spiritual sense; for the OT law prohibited the eating of any human flesh; so I wonder why Jesus would violate His own standard…He must change His standards.

JL: Your CRAZY. I will answer when I get time

 

[jlhargus]

** 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you** were taught, whether by word {of mouth} or by letter from us.

** I ask again? What are those traditions Paul refers to and be very specific and provide proof of your answer and I encourage anyone to answer this question**.

JL: To be very specific on an oral Apostolic Tradition passed on by Paul and the other apostles not found in scripture, which originates from oral Apostolic Tradition, would be what books are inspired.

Another would be the Trinity three co-equal persons, yet ONE GOD. Transubstantiation. How and whom to baptize. Another would be the order and how we celebrate the mass, the prayers and actions, [1Cor11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. … 34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And THE REST WILL I SET IN ORDER WHEN I COME.] Where did Paul set the rest in order in 2Cor or any scripture?

All Catholic teaching comes from oral Traditiion including the written Tradition of Scripture. The NT was written to already up and teaching churches. The Catholic Church did not look in a written NT and make up what she believes as you can only do. The Catholic Church RECEIVED that already delivered, believed and lived out (practiced) thru oral Tradition. Jude1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly CONTEND FOR THE FAITH WHICH WAS ONEC DELIVERED UNTO THE SAINTS.

1Tim6:20 Timothy, KEEP THAT WHICH IS COMMITTED TO THY TRUST, avoiding profane and vain babblings,

Philip4:9 THOSE THINGS, which YE HAVE both LEARNED, and RECEIVED, and HEARD, and SEEN IN ME, DO: and the God of peace shall be with you.

1Thes2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye RECEIVED the WORD OF GOD which ye HEARD of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is IN TRUTH, the WORD OF GOD, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Jn14: 26: But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and BRING all things TO your REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I have SAID UNTO YOU.

2Tim2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And THE THINGS that THOU HAST HEARD OF ME among many witnesses, THE SAME COMMIT thou TO FAITHFUL MEN, who shall be ABLE TO TEACH OTHERS also.

2Tim1:13 HOLD FAST the form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 THAT GOOD THING which was COMMITTED unto thee **KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST **which dwelleth IN US.

Our Pastor teaches verse by verse through each book of the Bible; which use to be the norm and has faded away. Our Bible study also goes verse by verse as well. just FYI

JL: I already knew you were Calvary Chapel, but thank you for the information. I know that is what Calvary Chapel Outreach does, tell me why are you ashamed to admit you belong to a Calvary Chapel Outreach? If your posts are a product of those verse by verse studies, I would look elsewhere quickly. By the way what oral tradition do you use to support your statement verse by verse use to be the norm? I know as a former Protestant I haven’t heard that before. Are you telling us it use to be the norm in Calvary Chapel Outreach and has faded except for you pastor?

 

[jlhargus]

**
That was very interesting to say the least. I wonder why Jesus didn’t take a knife and cut off 11-12 pieces of His flesh, then scoop the blood, that would result from the cutting of the flesh and give to disciples His blood…haven’t you ever wondered that? Does that sound ridiculous or is it just me?**
JL: Yes that is what the carnal mind would have thought. They all found eating human flesh and drinking blood repellent as we all do. It would have offended and disgusted me, not knowing HOW I was to eat his body and drink his blood. That’s why he gives his flesh and blood to eat under the appearance of bread and wine. It does not offend nor disgust, it looks, feels, smells, tastes, as bread and wine. We now know HOW. We recognise him in the breaking of bread, as those on the road to Emmaus did, Lk24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, HE TOOK BREAD, and BLESSED it, AND BRAKE, and GAVE TO THEM. 31 And THEIR EYES WERE OPENED, and THEY KNEW HIM; and he vanished out of their sight.
Tanner9188;5521085:

In acts they speak of the new believers, the church, gathering together and breaking of bread. I wonder why they said breaking of bread instead of eating of flesh?

JL: They could have called it whatever they wished. You are not thinking with a spiritual mind but a carnal mind. Christ said he WAS the bread of life. As a Catholic I sometimes say bread and wine, but I know it is the real body blood, soul and divinity of my resin lord. The carnal mind cannot discern correctly, you must be spiritually minded, which is a gift of God.

In John 6; I have always wondered why the disciples that took Him literally were the ones that walked away in unbelief, while His true disciples understood He was speaking in spiritual terms; they were the ones that understood and stayed; for even Peter said He had the WORDS of eternal life. He wasn’t the brightest bulb of the bunch; yet He understood.?

Bingo exactly, glad to see you admit they took him literally. Yes indeed those who left KNEW Christ was speaking literally and those who remained knew it also. They trusted in Christ whom they had come to believe was the Son of God, so whom could they go, knowing Christ had the WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE, as the dumb and unspiritual one as you call Peter said, Jn6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, TO WHOM SHALL WE GO? thou hast the words of eternal life. Those who stayed were spiritual minded not carnal minded as those who left and could only think it is cannibalism. Those who left failed the test of faith, not trusting in God, but their own carnal mind.

even Peter said He had the WORDS of eternal life. He wasn’t the brightest bulb of the bunch; yet He understood.?

JL: I’m convinced you think you are smarter than Peter, Paul and any human being living or dead. Yet our Lord looks on the HEART not on the carnal mind. The Holy Spirit is more interested in a the heart where he may dwell and use a loving heart that can confound the so called wise, especially those self styled wise who’s heart is filled with hate.

I have often wondered how people connect the “Bread of Life” sermon with the Lord’s Supper; there is no correlation to the two unless you were one of those who walked away in unbelief; became an apostate and started your own cannibal christian church…have you ever wondered that??

JL: I thought you believed in OSAS, yet here you admit believers can fall away, I will remember to remind you of your admission when you say OSAS. Why was the earliest symbol of Christ a fish? Which we see today as a bumper sticker? Why did Christ call himself the Bread of Life? Precisely because of the multiplying of the fish and loafs, which was viewed as a preparation for the real thing the Eucharist. I can see how you would not understand, the carnal mind can only think cannibalism, eating dead flesh. We do not eat a dead body, but the living body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord and God who cannot die. The very Bread of Life, the Lamb of God our Passover Lamb. Had the Israelites not eaten the Passover lamb in Egypt their first born would not have lived. As far as cannibalism, the body and blood are not metabolized as the elements are broken down in the stomach, it no longer has the appearance of bread and wine. It would make no difference if it were cannibalism, I would still receive my Lord and my God under the appearance of bread and wine.

I also find it interesting that His blood; even in the passages that speak of the Lord’s supper, always refer to His blood as representative of the New Covenant, which is the symbol of His pouring out of blood for an acceptable, once and for all, sacrifice for sins of the world.
“This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink {it,} in remembrance of Me.” ?

JL: Where does it say his blood REPRESENTED the new covenant any were in scripture? You are thinking with a carnal mind again. Duh look at what you posted, In fact he says this cup IS the new covenant IN MY BLOOD. Are you so carnal minded that you are deceived or are you so carnal minded as to be trying to deceive others?

Mt26:28 For THIS IS MY BLOOD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, which is SHED for many FOR the REMISSION OF SINS.

Mk14:24 And he said unto them, This IS MY BLOOD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, which is SHED FOR MANY.

Lk22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "THIS CUP IS THE NEW COVENANT IN MY BLOOD, which is POURED OUT FOR YOU.

1Cor10:16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Then Jesus Himself said, " For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup

, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.?

JL: Yes he did say that, and and I have said it also. The Eucharist is sometime referred to as bread and wine, yet that does not change the reality.

Call me crazy, but I think He meant this in a spiritual sense; for the OT law prohibited the eating of any human flesh; so I wonder why Jesus would violate His own standard…He must change His standards.

JL: What your carnal mind thinks doesn’t matter. Again you are not spiritual minded but carnal minded. How many ways could they discern the body and blood. One it is not the real body and blood of Christ (symbol) or two it is the real body and blood of Christ. Which way did those who grew sick and die discern? Answer they did not discern it was the real body and blood of Christ, they were sadly mistaken.

 

[1beleevr]

:clapping::elvisman: While I applaud your passion for, and knowledge of scripture, and your undying devotion to your religion; your rants towards non-catholics about not asking the saints(or Mary) to pray for us, are getting a bit(no, actually a lot) tedious(B-O-R-I-N-G). Whether or not we pray through them or not, does not mean that we do not believe in intercesssory prayer. We just believe like Paul, in that we ask those who are on earth to pray for us, and we in urn pray for them. Which reminds me, you have yet to find one my posts, where I; 1beleevr, have said that:1) the saints are dead, and 2) they are not part of the Body of Christ. If I AM a part of the Body, then they could be also. Personal choice, that’s what it’s about. Pray to God the Father, through Christ the Son, or through Mary and the saints:thumbsup:

 

[elvisman]

:clapping::elvisman: While I applaud your passion for, and knowledge of scripture, and your undying devotion to your religion; your rants towards non-catholics about not asking the saints(or Mary) to pray for us, are getting a bit(no, actually a lot) tedious(B-O-R-I-N-G). Whether or not we pray through them or not, does not mean that we do not believe in intercesssory prayer. We just believe like Paul, in that we ask those who are on earth to pray for us, and we in urn pray for them. Which reminds me, you have yet to find one my posts, where I; 1beleevr, have said that:1) the saints are dead, and 2) they are not part of the Body of Christ. If I AM a part of the Body, then they could be also. Personal choice, that’s what it’s about. Pray to God the Father, through Christ the Son, or through Mary and the saints:thumbsup:

I don’t know where you’re coming from.
I never said you HAD to ask those in heaven for help. I have merely been defending the position based on Scripture. Those in Heaven ARE part of the Body of Christ - whether you believe it or not. Not to appeal to them for help is a waste of a good source of help.

**I had a conversation with a non-Catholic about the beliefs of the ECFs on this board. when he couldn’t come back with an intellligent answer, he actually told me that the ECFs were heretics! Talk about a stretch! Asking them for help is not praying through them - it’s merely asking for help. **
If I ask you to pray for me, I don’t pray through you. You keep misrepresenting the Catholic position on this - even after I have repeatedly corrected you - and that makes you a liar.

I now present the writings of the Early Church Fathers as further evidence that invoking the intercession of the saints has ALWAYS been a belief of the Church.

Origen
But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels… as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II A.D. 233]).

---

**Pectorius **
Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ] (Epitaph A.D. 250]).

Cyprian
Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 A.D. 252]).

---

**Cyril of Jerusalem **
Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition… (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 A.D. 350]).

---

Hilary of Poitiers
To those who would fain to stand, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 A.D. 365]).

---

Ephraem of Syria
Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day (De Timore, Anim. in fin. A.D. 370]).

---

**Augustine **
A Christian people celebrate together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers (Against Faustus the Manichean A.D. 400]).

 

[1beleevr]

elvisman: Perhaps you need to re-read some of your posts You have given many a non-catholic, quite severe tongue lashings, because they don’t agree with your position And you hit the nail right on the head, when you said that “it has always been a belief of the church(catholic). Was ther not a thread once entitled,(not sure of exact title), which said"Why dont/won’t Protestants pray to/through Mary and the saints?” Sounds like it comes down to a matter of semantics(through or to). And then you mention those who have “fallen asleep”. What does that mean to you? You stil haven’t(not that I’m surprised)proven that I deny that these saints are part of the Body of Christ, and that they are deadAnd unless these passages you have quoted are scripturally based, then they are either someone’s opinion, or oral tradition, as you call it. And I think it’s cool that youse guys find comfort in using these saints to help intercede for you. Christians from every walk of life, find their own ways to make their Christian walk make sense, and derive the maximum from God. Whether or not we feel the NEED to use saints, still comes down to personal choice. Doesn’t the Lord’s Prayer, start out,“Our Father, which art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name…?” Did Jesus not tell us,"Ask for anything in My Name…?"Because of Christ’s FINISHED work on the Cross, we are able to boldly enter the throneroom of grace(Hebrews 4:16) through prayer to the Father, by way of Jesus.So as I see it, catholics, and I’m sure others pray, using the saints as intercessors, and most non-catholics pray directly to the Father, using Christ as the middle Man:thumbsup:And there you go, calling people liars again, merely because they disagree with your position. If I misrepresent the catholic position, it is usually due to, either misunderstanding, or failure to discern which catholic poster is presnting the correct position on intercessory prayer(another practice that I believe in and support). But Paul, doesn’t really elaborate on whether to use saints to talk to God. That’s the beauty of our God, always available, always listening, always faithful:thumbsup:

 

[elvisman]

elvisman: Perhaps you need to re-read some of your posts You have given many a non-catholic, quite severe tongue lashings, because they don’t agree with your position And you hit the nail right on the head, when you said that “it has always been a belief of the church(catholic). Was ther not a thread once entitled,(not sure of exact title), which said"Why dont/won’t Protestants pray to/through Mary and the saints?” Sounds like it comes down to a matter of semantics(through or to). And then you mention those who have “fallen asleep”. What does that mean to you? You stil haven’t(not that I’m surprised)proven that I deny that these saints are part of the Body of Christ, and that they are deadAnd unless these passages you have quoted are scripturally based, then they are either someone’s opinion, or oral tradition, as you call it. And I think it’s cool that youse guys find comfort in using these saints to help intercede for you. Christians from every walk of life, find their own ways to make their Christian walk make sense, and derive the maximum from God. Whether or not we feel the NEED to use saints, still comes down to personal choice. Doesn’t the Lord’s Prayer, start out,“Our Father, which art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name…?” Did Jesus not tell us,"Ask for anything in My Name…?"Because of Christ’s FINISHED work on the Cross, we are able to boldly enter the throneroom of grace(Hebrews 4:16) through prayer to the Father, by way of Jesus.So as I see it, catholics, and I’m sure others pray, using the saints as intercessors, and most non-catholics pray directly to the Father, using Christ as the middle Man:thumbsup:And there you go, calling people liars again, merely because they disagree with your position. If I misrepresent the catholic position, it is usually due to, either misunderstanding, or failure to discern which catholic poster is presnting the correct position on intercessory prayer(another practice that I believe in and support). But Paul, doesn’t really elaborate on whether to use saints to talk to God. That’s the beauty of our God, always available, always listening, always faithful:thumbsup:

**Either you have a really hard time understanding what I say or you have a really hard time reading.

**When did I EVER give anybody a “tongue-lashing” for not praying to the saints for help? **
ALL I have done is defend the practice as something that has been done since the very foundation of the Church against prideful, rebellious 21st century ignoramuses who think they know better than the Jesus, the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers.

**I, as a Catholic, understand that those who have died in Christ are more alive than you or I and they are members of the unified Body of Christ who are enjoying the beatific vision. They are the TRULY saved, whereas we haven’t yet “finished the race”. I lean on them to pray for me as I do my wife and daughter, and as they lean on me for prayer. **

That’s what the Body of Christ does, because as members of that Body - we are more radically joined than the finger is to the hand or the hand to the arm.
I don’t think you know that yet.

 

[1beleevr]

elvisman: It’s not so much that I have a hard time reading, as it is you having a hard time writing without anger. And maybe read John 8:7, again. It has nothing at all to do with whether the saints are alive or dea, it’s about you and you church pushing your agenda on those of us who pray directly to our Father, through our ONE and ONLY Mediator. You might know Him, His Name is Jesus!!! I think it’s awesome that you feel comfortable asking the saints to pray and intercede for you, but if we don’t(haven’t proven that Paul or Peter encouraged us to), what is it to you? You still haven’t found any proof that I said the saints were dead, or not members of the Body ofChrist I mean, if I’m a member, surely they can be:thumbsup:Also, you should review Matthew 7:1-5. God Bless!

 

[elvisman]

elvisman: It’s not so much that I have a hard time reading, as it is you having a hard time writing without anger. And maybe read John 8:7, again. It has nothing at all to do with whether the saints are alive or dea, it’s about you and you church pushing your agenda on those of us who pray directly to our Father, through our ONE and ONLY Mediator. You might know Him, His Name is Jesus!!! I think it’s awesome that you feel comfortable asking the saints to pray and intercede for you, but if we don’t(haven’t proven that Paul or Peter encouraged us to), what is it to you? You still haven’t found any proof that I said the saints were dead, or not members of the Body ofChrist I mean, if I’m a member, surely they can be:thumbsup:Also, you should review Matthew 7:1-5. God Bless!

**Who is judging (Matt. 7:1-5, John 8:7)?? **
We pray directly to God - and for you to imply that we don’t is just another of your rampant violations against the 8th Commandment (9th for Protestants).

Again - read SLOWL*Y so you don’t miss anything:
YOU DON’T HAVE TO ASK THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN FOR HELP.

Did you get it this time? Hope so.

I have not said ONCE on this thread that Protestants were wrong for not asking the saints in heaven for help. I am defending the Catholic practice of doing so against disingenous, hypocritical and apparently illiterate people.

 

[1beleevr]

elvisman: Yippee, I learned something new again:extrahappy:, I mean, if I read your post correctly, it seems like you are saying that catholics, and non-catholics have different Commandments! And John 8:7, and Matthew 7:1-5, do apply here, as is your usual style, you call people ignoramuses, illiterate, a sarcastic “pal”, among others. It is quite apparent that this particular issue can and has caused tension on both sides. I have been less than gracious at times, and I apologize for that. But in reply to your stement, " I have never said that Protestants have to pray to the saints, asking for help in intercession(or words to that effect), you also have NEVER found any of my posts, where I 1beleevr, a nondenominational member of the Bride of Christ, has told you or any other person, who believes in using the saints for intercession, NOT to do it! You continually provide “proof”, or justification for your belief in it, and there are some out there who very well may believe that you are chastising, or rebuking them for dismissing the “opportunity” of using Mary or the saints to plead your case before the Heavenly Father. And, perhaps you will read S-L-O-W-L-Y, and realize that it is perfectly okay, to pray to God, using the saints, or Mary, or pray directly to God, through Our King, Jesus Christ. I am not perfec(at least not yet), but I do know one thing for sure; I love Jesus more than I do my mother, my siblings, and my wife:thumbsup: and no one can take that from me. They can challenge my faith 24/7, if that is what “blows their skirt up”, but we all serv serve(or should), the same incredible God, and nothing I can do will make Him love me more, or make Him love me less. I think it’s time to put this “dead horse” in the grave, to spare any possibility of hurt feelings on either side. It’s not that I don’t understand what you’re saying, and I have been guilty of prideful stubborness, and ask your forgiveness. This issue is similar to the topic of whether to confess sins through a priest, or to Him(1John 1:9). May the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, richly bless you, my brother in Christ(at least I hope you consider me as such)

 

[elvisman]

elvisman: Yippee, I learned something new again:extrahappy:, I mean, if I read your post correctly, it seems like you are saying that catholics, and non-catholics have different Commandments! And John 8:7, and Matthew 7:1-5, do apply here, as is your usual style, you call people ignoramuses, illiterate, a sarcastic “pal”, among others. It is quite apparent that this particular issue can and has caused tension on both sides. I have been less than gracious at times, and I apologize for that. But in reply to your stement, " I have never said that Protestants have to pray to the saints, asking for help in intercession(or words to that effect), you also have NEVER found any of my posts, where I 1beleevr, a nondenominational member of the Bride of Christ, has told you or any other person, who believes in using the saints for intercession, NOT to do it! You continually provide “proof”, or justification for your belief in it, and there are some out there who very well may believe that you are chastising, or rebuking them for dismissing the “opportunity” of using Mary or the saints to plead your case before the Heavenly Father. And, perhaps you will read S-L-O-W-L-Y, and realize that it is perfectly okay, to pray to God, using the saints, or Mary, or pray directly to God, through Our King, Jesus Christ. I am not perfec(at least not yet), but I do know one thing for sure; I love Jesus more than I do my mother, my siblings, and my wife:thumbsup: and no one can take that from me. They can challenge my faith 24/7, if that is what “blows their skirt up”, but we all serv serve(or should), the same incredible God, and nothing I can do will make Him love me more, or make Him love me less. I think it’s time to put this “dead horse” in the grave, to spare any possibility of hurt feelings on either side. It’s not that I don’t understand what you’re saying, and I have been guilty of prideful stubborness, and ask your forgiveness. This issue is similar to the topic of whether to confess sins through a priest, or to Him(1John 1:9). May the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, richly bless you, my brother in Christ(at least I hope you consider me as such)

Whatever you say, my friend.
This thread was about Jesus being our only MEDIATOR before the Father. You - and others - have misunderstood this to mean that intercessors (people praying for us) are the same as mediators. This is not so and I have explained this ad nauseam.
If I offended any of your Protestant sensibilities while trying to drive my points across - I also apologize. It was not my intention.

**Perhaps it IS a good idea to pur our conversation to rest since you keep arguing the same points and misrepresenting Catholicism as though I never responded with any sort of proof. **
Indeed, it has been like talking to a wall . . .

PS - The 10 Commandments were not numbered by God. The Church splits the last one (coveting) in 2. The reason for this is the we do not see a wife and a man’s cattle or other possessions as the same. Women are not chattel - such as a horse, cow or slave. They are people made in God’s image.

 

[1beleevr]

Hey, everyone, I’d like you to meet my friend, The Wall; I mean elvismanWell, at least God forgives(1John 1:9). Aren’t most if not all threads, started by catholics? Most of them start out on message, and then go sideways, whether by design or accidentally! And of course, it is usually easier to blame us Gentiles for going off topic. Listen, whether we agree, or we’re both a bit stubborn or not, you are my brother in Christ, and I love you for that. And your so called proof, mostly dealt with praying for others while alive. The other examples seemed to be from priests or others in authority, perhaps based in scripture, I don’t know. Jesus is my only mediator, always has been, always will be. I pray to God through Jesus, and catholics may or may not use the saints, and Mary. It doesn’t really matter, when you get right down to it. Ignoramuses?Liars?Blasphemers? C’mon, elvisman, your post does not contain the love of Christ, and you know it:thumbsup:And I was not aware that the church had the authority to alter God’s Law And like, prayer, confession is a personal choice; no one should feel compelled to go to a priest!

 

[Ignatius]

heiscoming:

Certainly we are to ask our brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us or others.

Now you’ve got it. When we ask all of our brothers and sisters to pray for this. This is the same thing and we include the whole church; Church Militant, Church Suffering and Church Triumphant! One does not cease to be a member of the Body of Christ when he becomes separate from the body but together with Christ. Every Protestant denomination makes use Intercessory prayer in their churches, Just as Paul asked the church to pray for him or you might ask your congregation to pray for you; you just need to start including those who are ‘apart from the body but together with Christ’.

If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at chnetwork.org/. I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him. And He is faithful and sure to keep His promises. Repent, turn to the Gospel and be saved and you will have everlasting life.

Grace and peace be with you.

 

[1beleevr]

Hello, ignatius:tiphat:Good post, and I agree with many of the things you said, but not all of them First of all, yes, even though you are absent the body and with Christ, you are stil a member of the Body of Christ. And you should not be afraid to ask any of your brothers or sisters in Christ, to pray for you, and likewise, you should be “prayed up”, if they ask you to reciprocate:thumbsup: I don’t feel however that we non-catholics NEED to have those who Paul calls “asleep”, to pray for us, especially when we have Jesus, as our intercessorBecause of His finished work on the Cross, we can go BOLDLY into the throne room of grace, through prayer. Who we pray through, like confession, should be a personal choice; not an obligation. Churches like the catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and I’m sure others, believe in asking Mary and the saints to plead their case before the Lord; and this is perfectly fine:thumbsup: Many others believe in what Jesus said about asking for anything IN HIS NAME! So, I guess it’s six of one, and a half dozen of another, personal choice