Jesus did not die on Cross: some arguments by D.F.Strauss

[paarsurrey]

Your argument seems to be that there’s not enough evidence to support the fact that Jesus was crucified – thoroughly crucified, so that it was impossible for anyone to survive. Yet there is more evidence for that then there is for the existence of Socrates.

Why do you believe that Socrates existed, but you don’t believe in Jesus’ crucifixion? There is *much *more evidence for the latter than there is for the former.

Hi

I think I had already mentioned in my post that since my basic religious beliefs are not based on whether Socrates or Jesus existed historically or not, so it is not that much important for me as it is foryou.

It must be important for the Christians as they base their entire religion on one creed “Jesus died a cursed death on Cross”. For us Muslims it is sufficient that Quran - the most pristine and secure Word of God, has mentioned Jesus name and his life account in Quran.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Careful, Reuben J; People might think you and I are the same person.

I’ve said the same thing before on other threads. (example)

Hi Charlie Zeaiter!

How are you?

Is it you writing with the names Reuben J, InJesus, Eucharisted etc?

We nevermind, we concentrate on the issues not who writes them.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[wanner47]

Hi

I think I had already mentioned in my post that since my basic religious beliefs are not based on whether Socrates or Jesus existed historically or not, so it is not that much important for me as it is foryou.

If that’s the case, why post all these threads with alleged “proof” that Jesus was not crucified?

It must be important for the Christians as they base their entire religion on one creed “Jesus died a cursed death on Cross”. For us Muslims it is sufficient that Quran - the most pristine and secure Word of God, has mentioned Jesus name and his life account in Quran.

If that’s what you think, then you don’t know much about Christianity. Perhaps you should educate yourself.

 

[swariffin]

** Reuben J, I ignore all your above post because my question was in relation to the whereabouts of all the Mary’s at the time the bible was being written. You had said that eye witnesses were there when bible was being written. I know that at least two Mary’s were there at the time of crucifixion effort. I know that they were eye witnesses. I want to know, Where were they 20 or 30 years later? That is my question. Then I will deal with the rest of your post.**

Mary was living with John. John was one of the deciple. John knew Matthew very well. Mary met with all of the deciples during the Pentacost in one single room. Stories about Jesus was exchanged from all of the attendees. By that time, the story of the crucifictions has been spread around all the deciples of Jesus. Don’t forget that Mary Magdalene was fairly young in year 33 AD, and would surely still alive around the 70’s. The gospel of Matthew was written in 70 AD. Some scientist believe it was as early as the 55’s. Mary was about 70 to 90 yrs old by the time the gospel was written. 70 to 90 years old is still possible for a person to live. Even in the 20th century, it is still possible for people to pass the age of 90. My grandma-in-law is 84 now, and still capable of washing dishes and sweeping the floor. John wrote his gospel in 90 AD, after having Mary live with him like his mother for decades after year 33 AD.

 

[swariffin]

Hi

I think I had already mentioned in my post that since my basic religious beliefs are not based on whether Socrates or Jesus existed historically or not, so it is not that much important for me as it is foryou.

It must be important for the Christians as they base their entire religion on one creed “Jesus died a cursed death on Cross”. For us Muslims it is sufficient that Quran - the most pristine and secure Word of God, has mentioned Jesus name and his life account in Quran.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

Dear Paar,

None of Quran nor Hadits ever mentioned that Jesus went to India, but you believe that. Quran said Muhammad is the last prophet, and yet you claim that your ProphetMessenger is a later prophet to Muhammad.

You claim to based your believe in Quran, but you deny those Quranic verses, and believe in D.F Strauss or even later blog writers in the Internet. You really make me confused.

 

[Reuben_J]

Careful, Reuben J; People might think you and I are the same person.

I’ve said the same thing before on other threads. (example)

Ah, you too? It dawn on me that they are quite similar and I’m confused at times as to which one I addressed. Guess my memory is not too good. On the other hand, anything is possible in the Internet.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Charlie Zeaiter!

How are you?

Is it you writing with the names Reuben J, InJesus, Eucharisted etc?

We nevermind, we concentrate on the issues not who writes them.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

That’s right - to concentrate on the issues and not the writers. But then again there must be at least some minimum element of honesty as well even if it’s the Internet. By having multiple names written by one person smack of dubious motive in your participation in the forum.

 

[planten]

Mary was living with John. John was one of the deciple. John knew Matthew very well. Mary met with all of the deciples during the Pentacost in one single room. Stories about Jesus was exchanged from all of the attendees. By that time, the story of the crucifictions has been spread around all the deciples of Jesus. Don’t forget that Mary Magdalene was fairly young in year 33 AD, and would surely still alive around the 70’s. The gospel of Matthew was written in 70 AD. Some scientist believe it was as early as the 55’s. Mary was about 70 to 90 yrs old by the time the gospel was written. 70 to 90 years old is still possible for a person to live. Even in the 20th century, it is still possible for people to pass the age of 90. My grandma-in-law is 84 now, and still capable of washing dishes and sweeping the floor. John wrote his gospel in 90 AD, after having Mary live with him like his mother for decades after year 33 AD.

swariffin, thanks for information that the Mary’s could be living in year 50 or 60 A.D. But I do not agree to you about the rest of the matter. I hope there is no news and no mention of the Mary’s in the bible after Jesus left the area. Is there any mention of them? No.
That is my point. They may be living. But where were they? No news of them. You see the point please.

 

[Reuben_J]

swariffin, thanks for information that the Mary’s could be living in year 50 or 60 A.D. But I do not agree to you about the rest of the matter. I hope there is no news and no mention of the Mary’s in the bible after Jesus left the area. Is there any mention of them? No.
That is my point. They may be living. But where were they? No news of them. You see the point please.

The Bible is a spiritual teaching told in a story and it is not a history book. As far as spiritual teaching is concerned Christians are to occupy themselves on what is being told only.

Beside, the sources of Catholic teachings and information are not only from the Bible but also from the Church, which produced the Bible. You are actually looking for history and similar information. These can be found in Early Church Fathers writings and Church traditions, which do not constitute the Bible. The Church is a continuous entity never interrupted since the time of the apostles.

If I want to look for what the successors of Mohammad did after Mohammad died, it would be unreasonable to look for them all in the Quran. It might be in the Quran or it might not, but I would not expect even as a Christian, to find everything in there.

Like many Muslims who are asking this type of premeditated questions, I really do not know if they serve any purpose at all. So what if the life of Mary staying with apostle John in Ephesus is not found in the Bible? What that got to do with Christian salvation? The Bible said Jesus asked John to take Mary as his mother and then he took her home. This is enough for us. The important news is that Jesus died and knowing that, he gave his mother to John, a disciple, who took her home with him. And John wrote the Gospel.

 

[swariffin]

swariffin, thanks for information that the Mary’s could be living in year 50 or 60 A.D. But I do not agree to you about the rest of the matter. I hope there is no news and no mention of the Mary’s in the bible after Jesus left the area. Is there any mention of them? No.
That is my point. They may be living. But where were they? No news of them. You see the point please.

Mary and John lived in Efesus. Are you going to show that Mary and Jesus went to India? Please show me either in Quran or in the Bible.

 

[planten]

Mary and John lived in Efesus. Are you going to show that Mary and Jesus went to India? Please show me either in Quran or in the Bible.

** swariffin, I had given you the verse of the Quran that Jesus and his mother were given refuge (shelter) after a great affliction. That shelter was in a high place with gardens and fountains. That means Kashmir. Did you miss that point of the Quran? There is news about the travels of Jesus in the Hadith too. Masih also means a great travellor.**

 

[cathopologist]

** swariffin, I had given you the verse of the Quran that Jesus and his mother were given refuge (shelter) after a great affliction. That shelter was in a high place with gardens and fountains. That means Kashmir. Did you miss that point of the Quran? There is news about the travels of Jesus in the Hadith too. Masih also means a great travellor.**

The Qu’ran does not mention Kashmir and the ‘place with gardens and fountains’ could also mean Paradise. Or it can also mean lots of other mountainous places around the world. Do you consider Ibn Battuta a Masih?

 

[planten]

The Qu’ran does not mention Kashmir and the ‘place with gardens and fountains’ could also mean Paradise. Or it can also mean lots of other mountainous places around the world. Do you consider Ibn Battuta a Masih?

****Thanks cathopologist, you have come around to something after much ado. Remember that the Quran mentions the shelter after some great affliction (trouble). The Quran mentions that Allah gave shelter to both Jesus and his mother. Not only to Jesus. The Quran mentions that it was a good living place, a beautiful place. Kashmir could be that place very well.

But you are forgetting the lost sheep of Israel. Where were they?

I hope you do not believe that Jesus and his mother both together went to paradise. Please be reasonable in your logic. Thanks.****

 

[Reuben_J]

No, that should be for the other thread.

 

[swariffin]

****Thanks cathopologist, you have come around to something after much ado. Remember that the Quran mentions the shelter after some great affliction (trouble). The Quran mentions that Allah gave shelter to both Jesus and his mother. Not only to Jesus. The Quran mentions that it was a good living place, a beautiful place. Kashmir could be that place very well.

But you are forgetting the lost sheep of Israel. Where were they?

I hope you do not believe that Jesus and his mother both together went to paradise. Please be reasonable in your logic. Thanks.****

Why do you interpret Kashmir as the place mentioned in Quran? Any support for your interpretation? Bali is also a beautiful place, brother. Why it has to be Kashmir, why not Bali, why not Montana, why not Calcutta, Mumbay/Bombay, New Delhi. Why not Mecca which is more logical with respect to Muhammad.

 

[planten]

Why do you interpret Kashmir as the place mentioned in Quran? Any support for your interpretation? Bali is also a beautiful place, brother. Why it has to be Kashmir, why not Bali, why not Montana, why not Calcutta, Mumbay/Bombay, New Delhi. Why not Mecca which is more logical with respect to Muhammad.

**Makkah is not suitable because there are no rivers or fountains there. Bali and Calcutta and Montana, Bombay, Delhi likewise have no fountains and lush green valleys.

Most important of all the LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL were not in Bombay or calcutta or Bali. Jesus had gone in search of the lost sheep (Ten Tribes) of Israel as he had mentioned them in his sermons. You please tell where were those ten tribes and then the matter will be solved easily.**

 

[cathopologist]

Thanks cathopologist, you have come around to something after much ado. Remember that the Quran mentions the shelter after some great affliction (trouble). The Quran mentions that Allah gave shelter to both Jesus and his mother. Not only to Jesus. The Quran mentions that it was a good living place, a beautiful place. Kashmir could be that place very well.**

But you are forgetting the lost sheep of Israel. Where were they?**

I hope you do not believe that Jesus and his mother both together went to paradise. Please be reasonable in your logic. Thanks.

You have a way with twisting the words of others, which i assume is part of your missionary training. I do not believe in anything the Qu’ran has to say on the subject of Christ, His divinity, His Mother, His disciples and its other tales - because they do not match with historical facts. They fit better with the 1001 Arabian Nights. So do you think Ibn Battuta is a Masih?

 

[dzheremi]

**Makkah is not suitable because there are no rivers or fountains there. Bali and Calcutta and Montana, Bombay, Delhi likewise have no fountains and lush green valleys.

Most important of all the LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL were not in Bombay or calcutta or Bali. Jesus had gone in search of the lost sheep (Ten Tribes) of Israel as he had mentioned them in his sermons. You please tell where were those ten tribes and then the matter will be solved easily.**

Planten, it will NOT be solved easily. Sorry. I have read many accounts of groups claiming to be one of the “lost tribes”, like the Beta Israel of Ethiopia (formerly known as “Falasha”, but this term is pejorative now), Igbo Jews of Nigeria, the Lemba people of Southern Africa, and Bokharan Jews of Persia. These are in addition to the Indian people that you are probably refering to, like the Bnei Menashe. This matter is far from settled!

 

[cathopologist]

You please tell where were those ten tribes and then the matter will be solved easily.

You cannot even answer the questions brought forward by others in this thread. Instead, you merry-go-round and beat around the bush. You are supposed to answer questions relating to Islam, this is a Catholic forum and we need reliable answers. It does your religion no good if you cannot provide the answers we heathens so desperately seek.

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by planten:
Makkah is not suitable because there are no rivers or fountains there. Bali and Calcutta and Montana, Bombay, Delhi likewise have no fountains and lush green valleys.

Most important of all the LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL were not in Bombay or calcutta or Bali. Jesus had gone in search of the lost sheep (Ten Tribes) of Israel as he had mentioned them in his sermons. You please tell where were those ten tribes and then the matter will be solved easily.

Planten, it will NOT be solved easily. Sorry. I have read many accounts of groups claiming to be one of the “lost tribes”, like the Beta Israel of Ethiopia(formerly known as “Falasha”, but this term is pejorative now), Igbo Jews of Nigeria, the Lemba people of Southern Africa, and **Bokharan Jews of **Persia. These are in addition to the Indian people that you are probably refering to, like the Bnei Menashe. This matter is far from settled!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4581707#post4581707
Bokharan Jews of Persia

Hi

I want to facilitate dzheremi, planten and others to trace the Lost Sheep of Israel or Lost Ten Tribes of Israel to whom Jesus was sent as mentioned in the NTBible and Quran also says Jesus was but a Messenger of God Allah to the Israelis or Jews, not to the Gentiles as mislead by Paul, in my opinion.

Kindly also contribute to the new thread as mentioned above “Bokharan Jews of Persia”

I love Jesus and Buddha as I love Moses, his mother and Mary.

Thanks