G
Ghosty
Guest
ISABUS: Creature means “something that is created”, and it applies to the physical, spiritual, and imaginary. An angel is a creature, God is not. Even Jesus was not a creature.
- Status
I
ISABUS
Guest
Hi Ghosty,
Yes I am well aware that the Creator makes something out of nothing or any existing thing and it can be named a creature. Also, several definitions found within my Websters’ Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Languange, Random House Publishing, 1996 notes that creature means an animal, esp. a nonhuman or anything created animate or inanimate. However, my initial response was to Matt16’s statement “Do angels have DNA? Are not angels living creatures?” His statement implies he may consider angels to be animal instead of pure spirit. Spirit does not have DNA nor is God made of DNA.
My Catholic Encyclopedia states the following: Spirit. 1) Spirit is the soul. The soul is the principle of life in the body, it lives on after death (1 Cor.5:3), 2. A spirit which informs the soul much as the soul informs the body (Eph. 4:23), 3. Holy Spirit. This is the Holy Ghost, the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. (1 John 3:24), 4. Breath or breath of life (Gen.2:7; Ecclus. 48:27), or 5. An angel or an apparition (Acts 23:9). It should be noted that none of the above have DNA.
Father Vincent Serpa O.P. stated on September 29, 2004 in the thread ‘Jesus’ DNA’ the following: “Jesus is fully human and fully divine. He received all His DNA from His mother because His Father is God. He also received His mother from His Father who is the ultimate source of our parents as well.”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=16370
I do appreciate what you are attempting to explain to me Ghosty, however I think to pull out of content a snippet of what I wrote does not present the larger picture I was trying to present in my thread #78.
Thanks~
Isabus
M
marciadietrich
Guest
Hello Matt16_18,
Yes, in part Ott is saying that Jesus received his humanity from Adam via Mary. And the statement says “…generated and born of a daughter of Adam, the Virgin Mary.” Jesus was literally born of Mary, what reason is there to think given the construction of that statement and for what I have quoted of ECF belief, that “generated of” in regard to Mary is not also considered to be a literal truth?
BTW, are you the Matt16_18 who does apologetics under that name?
Marcia
M
marciadietrich
Guest
No, the conscience in Catholic thinking is not the same thing as their soul. The soul is the substance (the essence) of what we are, the soul is what makes us alive, without our soul the body dies. The soul is the form of the body (see bold in your quote). The conscience, though related to our self-knowledge and will is NOT our soul.
Also see that the Catholic Encyclopedia entry discusses the various types of souls, everything that lives has a soul. People have a spiritual and immortal soul (a soul that can exist independent of the body) and an intellectual or rational soul - plants and animals do not.
Marcia
I
ISABUS
Guest
Hello Marcia ~
Here again is what I stated in my thread #77:
“Soul. The thinking principle: that by which we feel, know, will, and by which the body is animated. The root of all forms of vital activity. It is a substance or a being which exists perse; it is simple or unextended, i.e., not composed of separte principles of any kind; it is spiritual, i.e., its existence, and to some extent its operations, are independent of matter; it is immortal. The soul is the substantial form of the body. There are three kinds of soul, vegetative, the root of vital activity in plants; sensitive, the root of vital activity in animals; intellectual, the root of vital activity in in man. The last contains the other two virtually; the sensitive contains the vegetative also virtually. The sensitive and vegetative soul are both simple but incomplete substances, incapable of existing apart from matter; they are therfore niether spiritual nor immortal.” The Holy Bible, The Catholic Press, Inc., 1952, p. 246
My thread #77 does not state as you say, “everything that lives has soul.” Not all living matter has soul. If we go the route of all that lives has soul then we could possibly be heading in the direction of Intelligent Design, which I nor the Church don’t really want to go. I hope you understand. :yup:
You say, “The soul is the form of the body (see bold in your quote).” I didn’t state that. I wrote in my original quote from the encyclopedia, ‘the soul is the substantial form of the body’ and ‘the thinking principle: that by which we feel, know, will, and by which the body is animated. The root of all forms of vital activity’. And this is the mind which is conscience. The human body can’t exist nor function properly without a brain with a mind in it. Also, I have been told by many priests that one’s conscience is the soul. In truth it is your mind that lives on. Your mind is the essense of your spirit which is your soul. How you grow spiritually is determined by your thoughts. Weither you believe in God or don’t depends on your judgment of reason. This plays an important role in one’s salvation which is taught by the Church. Of course, a dying infant doesn’t have a developed conscience in the ‘knowing and will’ part of their soul so would not be ‘capable of enjoying the Beatific Vision’ unless they were baptised, however that is not a requirement of heaven bound souls! I do have more information about that in another thread on a different topic.
Conscience is the judgement of reason concerning the lawfulness or unlawfulness of an act about to be or already performed or omitted. The dictates of a true or right conscience are in real conformity with the law of God. This is why God has given us a soul which is our conscience so we have “free choice” to decide for ourselves upon reflection what knowledge is true.
I hope this appeals to you for I do hope so since I did put a lot of time into my research prior to posting this message.
Thanks!
Isabus
M
marciadietrich
Guest
Plants, animals and man all have souls. To live is to have a soul of some kind. Vegetative, sensitive or intellectual.
365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.
Neither can animals live without their brain and that is why they have sensitive souls.
Priests are not infallable, they are people with opinions like the rest of us, their vocation is holy. Provide an official document of the Church that says the conscience IS the soul. The conscience is a result of our spiritual soul, but that isn’t the same thing as being our soul.
The whole section of the Catechism on conscience never mentions soul at all.
[1778](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1778.htm’)
Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. …Actually, the teaching of the Church is that the unbaptized infant would have the stain of original sin, and that is why they need to be baptized.
I think there are little bits of truth there that God gave us a conscience to guide decisions, and free choice in our intellectual soul … but you are twisting the definition of both soul and conscience to make them synonymous.
The conscience is simply a result of (or a sign of) the spiritual soul. Our conscience is the law written on our hearts: CCC 1776 and Romans 2: 14-16. Our conscience can convict or excuse us, but it is not the very essence of our being.
[33](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/33.htm’) The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God’s existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. …Marcia
Try not to be so smug. I reiterate my position: Angels are CREATURES because they are CREATED by God. In a Catholic Forum, we defer to the theological, not secular definitions. Animals are creatures, but they are not the ONLY creatures. Humans are creatures, and so are plants. And so are angels.What fantasy land are you living in today? I see you have created your own dictionary which reflects imaginary creatures!Tell me do you hear them singing too? :whacky:
Why don’t you compliment your newly revised dictionary with what has already been published, “The Dictionary of Imaginary Places” by Alberto Manguel and Gianni Guadalupi, Harcourt Brace and Company, London, 2000. They have a fantastic array of illustrations you would just love!
Peace ~
Isabus
Read your Catechism before insulting people. It clearly calls Satan (who has an angelic nature) a creature, because he was CREATED. ALL living beings created by God are CREATURES, whether they are corporeal or not.
M
metal1633
Guest
Have you not read the Creed recently?
And we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.
I, for one, will spend eternity with God in my Human Body, DNA and all.
I
ISABUS
Guest
Marcia Dietrich: Plants, animals and man all have souls. To live is to have a soul of some kind. Vegetative, sensitive or intellectual.
Isabus: What does that have to do with your comment to me stating as you say, “everything that lives has soul”? As I will say again, not all living matter has soul. If we go the route of all that lives has soul then we could possibly be heading in the direction of Intelligent Design, which I nor the Church don’t really want to go.
Yes, the human soul is the thinking principle: ‘that by which we feel, know, will, and by which the body is animated. The root of all forms of vital activity. It is a substance or a being which exists perse; it is simple or unextended, i.e., not composed of separte principles of any kind; it is spiritual, i.e., its existence, and to some extent its operations, are independent of matter; it is immortal. The soul is the substantial form of the body.’ This is taken from my The Holy Catholic Bible’s encyclopedia.
Marcia: 365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.
Isabus: If you look in your book, Cathechism of the Catholic Church, you will note that after the word** ‘body’ **you are referred to 234 which states ‘the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. . .The whole history of salvation is identiacal with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy spirit, reveals himself to men and reconciles and unites with himslef those who turn away from sin’. We must have a conscience, a mind for us to understand how God reveals things to us. There is no other way possible.
As far as the spirit and soul and body, 367 ‘The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.’
I have already stated that ‘the soul is the substantial form of the body’ and ‘the thinking principle: that by which we feel, know, will, and by which the body is animated. The root of all forms of vital activity’. And this is the human mind which is conscience.
Marcia: Neither can animals live without their brain and that is why they have sensitive souls.
Isabus: And as I have already mentioned the human body can’t exist nor function properly without a brain that has a mind within it.
continued…
Isabus: What does that have to do with your comment to me stating as you say, “everything that lives has soul”? As I will say again, not all living matter has soul. If we go the route of all that lives has soul then we could possibly be heading in the direction of Intelligent Design, which I nor the Church don’t really want to go.
Yes, the human soul is the thinking principle: ‘that by which we feel, know, will, and by which the body is animated. The root of all forms of vital activity. It is a substance or a being which exists perse; it is simple or unextended, i.e., not composed of separte principles of any kind; it is spiritual, i.e., its existence, and to some extent its operations, are independent of matter; it is immortal. The soul is the substantial form of the body.’ This is taken from my The Holy Catholic Bible’s encyclopedia.
Marcia: 365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.
Isabus: If you look in your book, Cathechism of the Catholic Church, you will note that after the word** ‘body’ **you are referred to 234 which states ‘the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. . .The whole history of salvation is identiacal with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy spirit, reveals himself to men and reconciles and unites with himslef those who turn away from sin’. We must have a conscience, a mind for us to understand how God reveals things to us. There is no other way possible.
As far as the spirit and soul and body, 367 ‘The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.’
I have already stated that ‘the soul is the substantial form of the body’ and ‘the thinking principle: that by which we feel, know, will, and by which the body is animated. The root of all forms of vital activity’. And this is the human mind which is conscience.
Marcia: Neither can animals live without their brain and that is why they have sensitive souls.
Isabus: And as I have already mentioned the human body can’t exist nor function properly without a brain that has a mind within it.
continued…
I
ISABUS
Guest
Marcia: Priests are not infallable, they are people with opinions like the rest of us, their vocation is holy. Provide an official document of the Church that says the conscience IS the soul. The conscience is a result of our spiritual soul, but that isn’t the same thing as being our soul.
Isabus: Like the Trinity, a human soul is spirit is conscience. All three are inseparatable. There is no duality. Prove to me the Trinity exists. Just because it is in writing doesn’t make it real. However, I am sure it goes beyond faith for me because my mind knows it is the truth because my mind is my conscious and i believe it to be true. You know don’t you without a reasonable doubt that the Trinity exists. Right?
Marcia: The whole section of the Catechism on conscience never mentions soul at all. 1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. …
Isabus: The Catechism is filled with many threads woven together very tightly and you need a spiritual advisor to help you understand it all. It is impossible to pull snippets out of the Catechism without following a thread. Example being: 1795 "Conscience is man’s most secret core, and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths’. Well, I think that should be proof enough to say that God is talking to your soul.
Marcia: Actually, the teaching of the Church is that an unbaptised infant would have the stain of original sin, and that is why they need to be baptized.
Isabus: Yes, but are you aware that dying with the stain of original sin only means that one is not able to behold the Beatific Vision? It doesn’t mean you loose salvation and aren’t going to heaven.
Marcia: I think there are little bits of truth there that God gave us a conscience to guide decisions, and free choice in our intellectual soul … but you are twisting the definition of both soul and conscience to make them synonymous.
The conscience is simply a result of (or a sign of) the spiritual soul. Our conscience is the law written on our hearts: CCC 1776 and Romans 2: 14-16. Our conscience can convict or excuse us, but it is not the very essence of our being. [snip because I have run out of space for your #33.]
Isabus: I haven’t twisted anything. You have every right to believe what you want to. I depend on my spiritual advisors who are wise priests to help me. Thanks for responding to my thread Marcia.
(p.g 2 of 2)
Isabus: Like the Trinity, a human soul is spirit is conscience. All three are inseparatable. There is no duality. Prove to me the Trinity exists. Just because it is in writing doesn’t make it real. However, I am sure it goes beyond faith for me because my mind knows it is the truth because my mind is my conscious and i believe it to be true. You know don’t you without a reasonable doubt that the Trinity exists. Right?
Marcia: The whole section of the Catechism on conscience never mentions soul at all. 1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. …
Isabus: The Catechism is filled with many threads woven together very tightly and you need a spiritual advisor to help you understand it all. It is impossible to pull snippets out of the Catechism without following a thread. Example being: 1795 "Conscience is man’s most secret core, and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths’. Well, I think that should be proof enough to say that God is talking to your soul.
Marcia: Actually, the teaching of the Church is that an unbaptised infant would have the stain of original sin, and that is why they need to be baptized.
Isabus: Yes, but are you aware that dying with the stain of original sin only means that one is not able to behold the Beatific Vision? It doesn’t mean you loose salvation and aren’t going to heaven.
Marcia: I think there are little bits of truth there that God gave us a conscience to guide decisions, and free choice in our intellectual soul … but you are twisting the definition of both soul and conscience to make them synonymous.
The conscience is simply a result of (or a sign of) the spiritual soul. Our conscience is the law written on our hearts: CCC 1776 and Romans 2: 14-16. Our conscience can convict or excuse us, but it is not the very essence of our being. [snip because I have run out of space for your #33.]
Isabus: I haven’t twisted anything. You have every right to believe what you want to. I depend on my spiritual advisors who are wise priests to help me. Thanks for responding to my thread Marcia.
(p.g 2 of 2)
I
ISABUS
Guest
:bigyikes: I think you are over reacting. I wasn’t being rude. I wasn’t insulting you. I honestly thought you were teasing me in your thread when you responded back to me ‘This is precisely why angels **are **creatures’ so I thought it was sweet and funny so I kidded you back. :yup: End of story! I’m laughing because it is funny how twisted up these threads can get at times and I know in my heart no one would intentionally be mean to anyone on a Catholic group. Right? :yup: You make it sound like I’m a mean person and that is not the truthl. I’ve noticed at times a new kid on the block often gets treated mean. That isn’t nice at all. Would you mind in the future to please ask me what I meant rather than scolding me first. I’m not a child.
Maybe you didn’t read my message wherein I responded to Mat16’s statement “Do angels have DNA? Are not angels living creatures?” His statement implies he may consider angels to be animal instead of pure spirit. We know spirit does not have DNA nor is God made of DNA. If only you would take the time to read what I have written in previous threads you will see I do know that the Creator is one who makes something out of nothing. In this sense, there is only one creator, God.
It is fair to say that I don’t know who is Catholic in this group and who is not so I presummed since Matt16 asked a question ‘Do angels have DNA?’ that he obviously wasn’t aware they are pure spirits. Many people walk around believing God’s angels are in reality human beings or animals with pure spirits! Sad but true.
Peace ~
Isabus
M
Matt16_18
Guest
You know nothing of the immortal bodies that Adam and Eve had before the Fall. If you want to say that mortal human bodies have DNA, no problema.
We won’t have DNA as we know it in our resurrected bodies, because the physical laws that govern the fallen world are passing away.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
I don’t know why you think I implied such a thing. My response was a counter to the assertion that all living creatures have DNA, which obviously isn’t true in the case of angels, since, as you noted, angels are living creatures that are pure spirit.
I
ISABUS
Guest
Hi Matt 16_18,
This is what you wrote: “Is the Catholic faith supposed to be based on scientific evidence? So what if there is no scientific evidence that Adam and Eve were immortal before they were cast out of the terrestrial paradise! This is a matter of faith, not science. There is no scientific that Purgatory, Heaven, and Hell exist either. [snip] Do angels have DNA? Are not angels living creatures?”
Can you see why I would think you aren’t a Catholic? And you were being sincere when you stated angels have DNA and are ‘living creatures’ since my definition of the word ‘living’ which you applied to angels means to me lifelike or true to life. Perhaps there is a Catholic definition for ‘living’. I can’t find one in the Catechism or my bible’s encyclopedia.
By the way, I stated that angels are pure spirits. (period) I don’t recall saying they were ‘living creatures’ .
Peace ~
Isabus
M
Matt16_18
Guest
No, I can’t. Did you read the post the prompted me to respond the way that I did? I was asking a rhetorical question in response to a false assertion made by hecd2; i.e. hecd2’s assertion that “there is no life without DNA”. Obviously, this is wrong, since angels have life, and angels do not have DNA. Since DNA is NOT necessary for life, there is no reason why Adam and Eve had to have DNA when they possessed their immortal bodies in the terrestrial paradise. It was only after Adam and Eve were cast out of the terrestrial paradise that Adam and Eve acquired mortal bodies, and it is mortal bodies that have DNA. When we receive our resurrected bodies, we will have no DNA in our bodies as DNA now exists, because DNA is governed by the physical laws of the fallen world, and those physical laws are temporary laws that are passing away.
Where did I ever say that angels have DNA?
So what is your point? Do you believe that angels are not living creatures?
G
Ghosty
Guest
Matt16_18: I’m not the one making unsubstantiated assumptions about the composition of an immortal body. All I’m saying is that a human body, by definition, has DNA precisely because it is a body. There is no reason to assume that an immortal human body would be any different. An immortal body MIGHT not be composed of any type of living matter that we understand, but that is pure speculation and not based in any way on either scripture or reason. Feel free to hold to whatever unfounded assumptions you like so long as they aren’t heretical, but don’t go criticising those of us to who see no need to step into the realm of pure speculation when we have perfectly valid scientific reason informed by faith; by our understanding of human bodies, they must have DNA, whether immortal or not.
Nowhere does it state that an immortal body is not of the same substance as a mortal body, and Church doctrine certainly doesn’t say otherwise. Nowhere does it state that Adam was given a new and different body after the Fall, nor does Church teaching imply that he was.
Nowhere does it state that an immortal body is not of the same substance as a mortal body, and Church doctrine certainly doesn’t say otherwise. Nowhere does it state that Adam was given a new and different body after the Fall, nor does Church teaching imply that he was.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
This is a tautological argument.
G
Ghosty
Guest
I don’t see how. DNA is an integral part of the biological process (in the terms of my above statement, a body) as we know it. The human body is a biological process, and there is no such thing as a non-biological human body (a contridiction in terms). The human body, by virtue of being a biological process, has DNA. That’s not tautological in the least.
Put simply, the human body, by definition, has DNA because it is a body. No DNA → no body → no human body.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
Mortal bodies cannot be made of the same substance as immortal bodies, since immortal bodies are not subject to death, disease, or decay. The DNA of a mortal body is definitely subject to decay - just expose DNA to enough gamma radiation, and it will be totally destroyed.
**Catechism of the Catholic Church
404** By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.
1008 Death is a consequence of sin. The Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin. Even though man’s nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin. “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is thus “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered.
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but** we shall all be changed**, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.
1 Cor. 51-52
“Food for the stomach and the stomach for food,” but God will do away with both the one and the other.”
1Cor. 6:13
G
Ghosty
Guest
It is humanity’s nature to die; it is a fundamental attribute given to us by God. The immortality is not a change in our nature, but a gift bestowed upon us that covers our nature. God preserves us from the natural course of our nature, that is all.
This is my point exactly. It says nothing about our nature changing even in this passage that you use. Nothing here implies that our bodies will somehow be of a different composition when they are immortal.
This has nothing to do with what you’re describing, but rather comes from a talk against sexual immorality. Regardless, the passage does not imply any kind of immortality, but rather highlights the mortality of food and the stomach; both rot away to nothing while God is eternal and has power over both, so our focus should be on God and not wordly concerns and pleasures.
- Status