Jesus DNA?

[Matt16_18]

Ghosty:

DNA is an integral part of the biological process (in the terms of my above statement, a body) as we know it.

The body as we know it is mortal. But we only have mortal bodies because of the sin of Adam and Eve. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, we would have had entirely different bodies.

Adam and Eve were not subject to the biological processes of the fallen world before they brought death, disease, and decay into the world. Evolution in the fallen world is a process that is driven by death, disease, and decay.

Put simply, the human body, by definition, has DNA because it is a body. No DNA → no body → no human body.

Again, this is nothing but a tautological argument.

Jesus and Mary have immortal human bodies. Are Jesus and Mary subject to death, disease, and decay? Would exposure to a blast of gamma radiation destroy the resurrected body of Jesus? If Jesus and Mary have any DNA at all, it cannot be the fragile and easily damaged DNA that mortal human beings possess.

 

[Ghosty]

Jesus and Mary have immortal human bodies. Are Jesus and Mary subject to death, disease, and decay?

I can’t say anything about disease or decay, but both most certainly died, in fact it’s Dogma that both died. We even discuss the very real physical death of Jesus in the Creed. Both were free from Original Sin, yet both died. Your argument completely falls apart here.

The body as we know it is mortal. But we only have mortal bodies because of the sin of Adam and Eve. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, we would have had entirely different bodies.

Every human body is mortal, even Adam and Eve’s. You yourself quoted as much in your last post. It was through God’s grace that those mortal bodies were kept free from death. Original Sin did NOT change human nature, but rather deprived it of Divine Grace. That much is also taught in the CCC.

Adam and Eve were not subject to the biological processes of the fallen world before they brought death, disease, and decay into the world. Evolution in the fallen world is a process that is driven by death, disease, and decay.

Again, they were not subject to it because they were preserved from their own nature, not because they had a different nature. This teaching comes directly from the Church.

 

[MikeB]

Hello, as response to the DNA question in the blood and I assume cloning there probably wouldn’t be enough to use. Also, to the blood type in the Shroud it was tested and it is AB. Which is also the blood type of the relic that is said to be the cloth that covered the face of Jesus. Also, at Lanciano, Italy around the year 700 a priest doubted Jesus’ real presence and the host and wine were turned into flesh and blood. Both still exist and the blood was tested and it also was AB. The marvelous fact of all of this is that AB blood type is rare, less than 3% have it and it is also known as “a universal donor type” which means that anyone needing blood can receive this type of blood. The blood of our Savior can be given to every person on earth. Someone kindly tell me how we faked that little miracle!

 

[mtb3]

Jesus got his DNA from Mary by being concieved by her.

even though is is God, being made man from a mortal woman gives him his DNA. The man, came from a Human Woman with Real DNA.

 

[Ghosty]

Actually, AB types are “universal receivers”, not “universal donors” (Type O). AB blood actually can’t be received by anyone by AB blood types, because it would be destroyed by any other body.

Blood plasma is a different issue, however, and that is where AB- is universal donor.

 

[Matt16_18]

Ghosty:

I can’t say anything about disease or decay, but both most certainly died, in fact it’s Dogma that both died. We even discuss the very real physical death of Jesus in the Creed. Both were free from Original Sin, yet both died. Your argument completely falls apart here.

How does my argument fall apart? It is a doctrine of the church that disease and decay entered into creation because of Original Sin. That is both taught in scriptures and in the Catechism. **Catechism of the Catholic Church

399 & 400** Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. … Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”. Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”, for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.

Every human body is mortal, even Adam and Eve’s. You yourself quoted as much in your last post. It was through God’s grace that those mortal bodies were kept free from death.

Every human body is NOT mortal. Adam and Eve once had immortal human bodies. Jesus and Mary (the new Adam and the new Eve) now have human bodies that are immortal. The just will receive immortal bodies at the resurrection of the dead. It is true, of course, that the glorious resurrected immortal bodies are an unmerited gift of God. The immortal bodies that Adam and Eve once possessed were an unmerited gift from God, a gift that they lost due to sin.

 

[Matt16_18]

Ghosty:

Original Sin did NOT change human nature, but rather deprived it of Divine Grace.

I am not denying that Adam and Eve lost the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace when they committed the original sin. That is indeed a doctrine of the Church. Nor am I asserting that Original Sin changed human nature. What I am saying is that it is a doctrine of the Church that Adam and Eve possessed the preternatural gift of immortality before the fall, and that death, disease, and decay entered into creation as a consequence of original sin. This doctrine of the church does not allow for a view of evolution that posits that death was already a part of creation before Adam and Eve came into being.

Again, they were not subject to it because they were preserved from their own nature, not because they had a different nature. This teaching comes directly from the Church.

Grace perfects our nature - grace does not give us a different nature. I think that we agree on that point. Adam and Eve had human nature when they had immortal bodies. Adam and Eve had human nature when they lost the preternatural gift of immortality. Adam and Eve will still have human nature when they are resurrected from the dead and receive their glorified bodies.

When the universe is restored at the end of time, there will be no more death or decay in the world. If there is no more decay in the world, the physical laws governing creation will have to be completely different than the physical laws that govern the fallen world. No more entropy!

en·tro·py * n.* The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

1008 ** Death is a consequence of sin. The Church’s Magisterium … teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin. ….“Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” …

1042 & 1047 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. … The universe itself will be renewed … The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, “so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just,” sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.

1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men. “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”

 

[Ghosty]

Matt16_18: Human nature is mortal, plain and simple. If you agree that grace does not give us a different nature, then you must accept this. The human body is mortal by its very nature, but it preserved from the logical consequence of this mortality by the Grace of God. Just because death does not happen does not require that humans lack DNA, rather they are preserved from cellular decay.

When we become immortal we will keep our human natures, which the CCC states are indeed mortal. All humans are necessarily mortal by nature if the CCC is correct, and our agreement that the Grace of God does not change the nature of humanity holds true. Human mortality is put “on hold” indefinately, but it is not stripped away, so there is no reason to believe that they lack DNA.

For that matter, the Eucharistic Miracle at Lanciano has an AB blood type, and it is also the very real blood of Christ. This is the same blood type found on the Shroud of Turin and the cloth that covered the face of Christ. The blood of the Shroud would be before Jesus’ “immortal transformation”, and the blood of the Eucharist would be from Christ’s immortal and eternal body. Why would the immortal body have a blood type, a direct product of DNA, that was the same as the pre-transformation blood if the immortal body shed these traits of “mortality”?

Incidently, blood type is an integral part of the immune system, a system that would not be necessary if things are exactly as you describe. If the immortal body is not designed to fight disease (a completely different matter from whether or not immortal bodies are allowed to experience diseases), then why does the immortal Blood of Christ possess an immune system?

 

[robbmiller]

Jesus is fully God and fully man. This statement alone is a paradox. Is it suprising that this parodox might contain another paradox?

What happened to FAITH?

 

[gnosys]

Faith doesn’t mean you stop thinking. Despite a few unfortunate episodes of stubborn closed-mindedness, the Catholic Church has been – of all Christian sects – the most supportive of philosophical speculation and scientific investigation.

My own inclination on this question is to suppose Christ’s body was indistinguishable from any other human body. Once conceived, He developed like any other embryo, and by the same natural process. I’d say Christ’s body was 100% mortal, because His death was 100% real. This was not the APPEARANCE of the death of a man. His resurrection was therefore 100% miraculous; in other words, His body wasn’t specially designed for easy resurrection.

However, I am sure this is an oversimplification. And I do agree that no completely satisfying explanation is possible, because Christ’s nature as both man and God is ultimately paradoxical (like his nature as both God and son of God, and like our nature as created in God’s image).

Sure, we may end up knocking our heads against the the profound mystery of it all, but that shouldn’t stop us from thinking./

 

[Matt16_18]

Ghosty:

Matt16_18: Human nature is mortal, plain and simple. If you agree that grace does not give us a different nature, then you must accept this.

No, I don’t have to accept this, because it isn’t true. When a person dies, the immortal soul of the human separates from the mortal physical body leaving behind a corpse. Human beings can exist as an immoral souls waiting for the resurrection of their body. The dead still have their human nature - the dead did not lose their human nature because their mortal bodies are now rotting in the grave.

The human body is mortal by its very nature, but it preserved from the logical consequence of this mortality by the Grace of God. Just because death does not happen does not require that humans lack DNA, rather they are preserved from cellular decay.

Mortal bodies in this fallen world have DNA, we can agree on that. But Adam and Eve once had immortal bodies in the terrestrial paradise. In either case, Adam and Eve have human natures that exists apart from whether or not that have bodies at all.

When we become immortal we will keep our human natures, which the CCC states are indeed mortal.

You are misunderstanding what the CCC is saying. Humans have mortal bodies because of sin. Human nature is what makes us humans and not animals. An immortal soul dwelling in heaven, hell, or purgatory still has a human nature, even though their bodies may be nothing more that dust in the wind.

 

[Wormwood]

Jesus and Mary have immortal human bodies. Are Jesus and Mary subject to death, disease, and decay? Would exposure to a blast of gamma radiation destroy the resurrected body of Jesus?

This sounds more like a comic book than scripture. If they had immortal bodies they would still be alive.

Jesus got his DNA from Mary by being concieved by her.

You guys need some biology classes. Sure SOME of Jesus’ DNA came from Mary, but if it ALL came from here he would be a Mary clone and not a man. This suggests that Either A) Jesus’ father was a man or B) that his genetic code is 50% identical to the creator’s, so that if we unlock the secrets of his DNA we unlock the secrets of divinity. Neither option sounds very appealing considering the implications of them both.

Every human body is NOT mortal. Adam and Eve once had immortal human bodies. Jesus and Mary (the new Adam and the new Eve) now have human bodies that are immortal.

Since when are Jesus and Mary the new Adam and Eve? Is this in some “catholic’s only” version of the bible I haven’t seen? To Suggest that Jesus and his mother are like the 2 people who were given the task to copulate and populate the earth seems a little perverse. What exactly are you trying to suggest with this? Also where does the bible mention Jesus and Mary getting immortal bodies? Seems like a lot of speculation and over interpretation

 

[marciadietrich]

First let me say hello.

ISABUS:

…not all living matter has soul. If we go the route of all that lives has soul then we could possibly be heading in the direction of Intelligent Design, which I nor the Church don’t really want to go.

What thing that lives is not in at least a broad sense a plant, animal or man? (even if we say bacteria, it would be for this definition classified as an animal - a creature not a plant and not man) The definition of soul includes the idea that it is the soul that animates = makes us alive. As far as Intelligent Design goes, it seems perfectly compatible with Catholicism. God is the Creator of all that is seen and unseen.

**

** 365**

** The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

If you look in your book, Cathechism of the Catholic Church, you will note that after the word** ‘body’ **you are referred to 234 which states 'the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. . .

I’m sorry but that is totally wrong. That number 234 in CCC 365 after “body:” is a footnote which reads:
234 Cf. Council of Vienne (1312): DS 902.
The idea that the soul is the form of the body comes from the Council of Vienne held in 1312 and DS = Denzinger-Schoenmetzer (1965). Footnote numbers are within the paragraphs, cross references are in the margin of the book or embedded links.

Example being: 1795 "Conscience is man’s most secret core, and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths’. Well, I think that should be proof enough to say that God is talking to your soul.

This is not proof that the conscience is the soul. That is like saying the Bible is my soul because it is a way that God speaks to me. The conscience is God’s way of speaking to us directly and personally inside us. It is a “voice” to guide us. The conscience is a “sign” of a spiritual soul, not the soul itself.

[33](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/33.htm’) The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the **voice **of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God’s existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the “seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material”,9 can have its origin only in God.

Is openess to truth our soul or merely a sign of a spiritual soul? It is obviously a sign of the spiritual soul. The same for the **voice **of his conscience. It is merely a sign of and a result of our spiritual soul.

 

[marciadietrich]

marciadietrich:

That number 234 in CCC 365 after “body:” is a footnote which reads:
234 Cf. Council of Vienne (1312): DS 902.
The idea that the soul is the form of the body comes from the Council of Vienne held in 1312 and DS = Denzinger-Schoenmetzer (1965).

Isabus,

Just in case you are not convinced that is correct, that the footnote on the council of vienne saying that the soul is the form of the body, here is something additional from the Catholic Encyclopedia mentions this:

newadvent.org/cathen/01648a.htm

… He refers to the definition of the Council of Vienne (1311) published by Clement V (1305-14) which taught that** the soul is** “really, of itself, and essentially, the form of the body” [Hefele-Knöpfler, “Conciliengeschichte”, VI, 536-542; Denzinger-Stahl, “Enchiridion Symb. et Definit.”, 9th ed. (Freiburg, 1899) 136-137], and then declares that it is of its own nature immortal, and that each body has a soul of its own. …

This article is speaking on Leo X fighting erroneous thought that all men had the same soul and also falsely thinking the soul was mortal. So a defense against that was that the soul is “really, of itself and essentially, the form of the body,” and that each person’s soul is individual and immortal.

 

[dessy]

Hi,
Pls lets leave the issue of DNA,if we continue it will keep on prolonging.

But one thing we need to know for sure is that Christ is tuely Man with all scientifical composition of human.
DNA,white Blood Cell etc.
Just like every Human but wiht DIVINE make up and without sin.So i Pray we dont commit Sacriledge with our Topic

But lets just forget about His natural or scientifical make.

Thanx Dessy.

guide our Thought :angel1:

 

[Ghosty]

No, I don’t have to accept this, because it isn’t true.

According to the CCC it is. I repeat:

1008 Death is a consequence of sin. The Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin. Even though man’s nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin. “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is thus “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered.

Straight from the Catechism. Man’s nature is mortal. You say:

Human nature is what makes us humans and not animals.

yet you ignore what the Church directly teaches about that nature. Mortality is not something tacked on to human nature by Original Sin, but rather the fundamental nature of humanity that was revealed when the Divine Grace was removed. I’m sincerely sorry that this contridicts your deeply held image of immortality and human nature, but the CCC is very clear on this matter.

Death is indeed a consequence of sin, but it is merely the revelation of humanity’s fundamental building blocks, not the alteration of them.

 

[Matt16_18]

Ghosty:

According to the CCC it is. I repeat: Straight from the Catechism. Man’s nature is mortal.

You need to read that passage of the CCC in its context.

Mortality is not something tacked on to human nature by Original Sin, but rather the fundamental nature of humanity that was revealed when the Divine Grace was removed.

Our mortality is a consequence of sin - that is what the church teaches.

We are now living in an age where human beings exist with mortal bodies. But this age is passing away, and ultimately, all human beings will be living with immortal physical bodies for all eternity. After the final judgement, it will be impossible for human beings to ever be mortal again. Does that mean that human nature will be fundamentally altered because human beings can no longer be mortal? Not at all. Human beings with immortal physical bodies will still have human nature.

After the final judgement, all human beings will either be living in the restored creation that is free of death, disease, and decay, or they will be living with hideous physical bodies in the lake of fire. In the grand scheme of things, mortality is merely a fleeting phase that we pass through as human beings.

 

[ISABUS]

Hello Marcia:tiphat:

I adore this little people! They’re such a riot. I can’t stop laughing. Anyway, I’ll have to get back to your thread and Matt16_18’s before the weekend is up. I’m heading out the door to a party right now. I did want to share with you and “all” this url incase no one knew of it before. I happened upon it tonight. It’s from the VATICAN ARCHIVE, Catechism of the Catholic Church, IntraText - Alphabetical word list.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_FA.HTM

What’s neat about it is that you can search for a word and it gives you a wealth of information immediately. I plugged in these words:

1. Soul
2. Mind
3. Conscience
4. Intellect
   even Original Sin! :bigyikes: (This face is my favorite of the little people.)

You may like to check out those particular words I’ve mentioned above and see if you find anything that peeks your interest. I scanned it fast and noted a few things.



Isabus ~

 

[Winters]

I’m sorry to be so blunt, but many of these posts in this thread border on silliness. Certainly it is reasonable to think that Jesus had DNA. The church teaches that he was fully human (and fully divine.

Trying to postulate beyond this mystery, on the biochemical level, is ludicrous. A God who could elicit all of creation out of a vanishly small point has no problem using human nut and bolts to achieve miraculous things.

I think the hype of Watson and Crick is responsible for this silliness. Sure, the discovery and description of DNA was a terrific milestone in the history of biology. But don’t buy this, “we’ve discovered the secret of life and now all is predictable because all is knowable” bs. Two hundred plus years of science illustrate that the more we learn the more there is to understand. In the absence of faith, we are no closer to the answers of the fundamental questions of philosophy than the ancients Greeks were many hundreds of years ago.

Sorry,

my wife didn’t kiss me this morning,
Winters

 

[Charity]

rarndt01:

In true reality, the earthly body of Jesus was CHANGED into a new, glorified heavenly body at his resurrection. *He no longer exists in a human body… *

Yes, He does. Jesus exists in a human body now. Christ’s human body is present in Heaven in the Trinity.

CCC
The condition of Christ’s risen humanity
645 By means of touch and the sharing of a meal, the risen Jesus establishes direct contact with his disciples. He invites them in this way to recognize that** he is not a ghost** and above all to verify that the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified, for it still bears the traces of his Passion.508 Yet at the same time **this authentic, real body **possesses the new properties of a glorious body: not limited by space and time but able to be present how and when he wills; for Christ’s humanity can no longer be confined to earth, and belongs henceforth only to the Father’s divine realm.509 …

646 Christ’s Resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that he had performed before Easter: Jairus’ daughter, the young man of Naim, Lazarus. These actions were miraculous events, but the persons miraculously raised returned by Jesus’ power to ordinary earthly life. At some particular moment they would die again. Christ’s Resurrection is essentially different. In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space. …

II. THE RESURRECTION - A WORK OF THE HOLY TRINITY
648 Christ’s Resurrection is an object of faith in that it is a transcendent intervention of God himself in creation and history. In it the three divine persons act together as one, and manifest their own proper characteristics. the Father’s power “raised up” Christ his Son and by doing so perfectly introduced his Son’s humanity, including his body, into the Trinity. …

Article 6
"HE ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN AND IS SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER"

659 "So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God."531 Christ’s body was glorified at the moment of his Resurrection, as proved by the new and supernatural properties it subsequently and permanently enjoys.532 But during the forty days when he eats and drinks familiarly with his disciples and teaches them about the kingdom, his glory remains veiled under the appearance of ordinary humanity.533 Jesus’ final apparition ends with the irreversible entry of his humanity into divine glory, symbolized by the cloud and by heaven, where he is seated from that time forward at God’s right hand.534…

663 Henceforth Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father: "By ‘the Father’s right hand’ we understand the glory and honour of divinity, where he who exists as Son of God before all ages, indeed as God, of one being with the Father, is seated bodily after he became incarnate and his flesh was glorified."545