Jesus DNA?

[ISABUS]

marciadietrich:

bumping to highlight this section on conscience and soul for Isabus … the thread is getting a bit hard to navigate so if you’d like to start a new one on that subject that would be fine by me

Marcia, though I do appreciate the gesture the answer is ‘no thank you’. Call it intuition. There appears to me a reason why ‘soul is spirit is conscience’ appeared as a thread within “Jesus’ DNA”.

I’m not one to debate my point for I’d rather save what extra time and energy I have to read and write poetry, tend to my lovely garden, or do volunteer work. One more post from me will do it. Please be patient for my reply to your responses #113 and #114. Not today though since I’m tuckered out from having had an extremely productive weekend doing some unexpected volunteer work while battling a cold and sore back.

Thank you in advance for understanding.

Peace, Love, and Joy ~
Isabus

 

[hecd2]

marciadietrich:

Hello Alec,

The standard for behaviorally modern, is that tool and weapon making? Other items? Dwellings? Graves? All of the above? Been a while since I read up on that, can’t recall timing on when those sort of things popped up.

Marcia

Hi Marcia,

All of these and much more. After 50,000 years BP, there is an explosion in art that still has the power to move us, sophisticated symbolism, an astonishing inventiveness and profusion in decoration and technology, the ability to make audacious journeys, including long sea journeys to colonise every corner of the globe, and the signs of complex religious beliefs. Before 50,000BP and as early as 90,000BP there are isolated examples of things like graves and the use of bone tools, but the full fluidity and sophistication of the modern human mind appears at the Middle to Upper Palaeolithic transition. (Tools, of course, go back to the Oldowan stone technology of Homo habilis, 2 million years ago).

I recommend Steven Mithen’s ‘Prehistory of the Mind - the Cognitive Origins of Art and Science’.

Alec
homepage.ntlworld.com/macandrew/Grenada_disaster/Grenada_disaster.htm

 

[hecd2]

Charity:

It is unneccessary to make up any fantastic stories about the biology of pre-fall Adam & Eve. True science and faith cannot contradict, because it is the same God that made them both.

I agree with you that all living creatures (not spiritual beings, as in the angelic beings or the Godhead) ARE DNA-based, RNA viruses excepted.(see here) It is my educated guess that Adam & Eve most likely did have DNA pre-Fall; the million-dollar-question is:
" Which components of the pre-fall state of original man can be scientifically elucidated, and which are within the supernatural realm?"

Dear Charity,

The biology of different sorts of viruses is complex but many people do not consider viuses of any sort to be independent living things as they cannot replicate in the natural state outside a host. But you have reminded me of the hypothesis for early life of RNA world, which, if correct woulod mean that the precursor of DNA life would have been RNAlife, which perhaps is the ancestry for certain RNA viruses that have lost their own replication mechanism.

Your million-dollar-question leaves me a little queasy - at one moment we are in the world of science discussing DNA and in the next we are talking about the biblical Fall. Science recognises no such event. As far as scientists are concerned the genomes of modern humans evolved, without any miraculous or disruptive event, from the genome of the common ancestor of human and chimpanzees according to the now well understood principles of evolutionary biology. The evidence supports just such a natural transition, with the genetic code, DNA transcription, protein expression and all the other cellular mechanisms being identical across all primate species (including humans) and the plain signs of common ancestry such as ancestral pseudogenes and retrotransposons and repeat sequences being found in human and chimp genomes.

The queasiness arises from the meaninglessness of the question. All aspects of the human genome and the genome of human ancestry can, in principle, be elucidated by science.

Alec
homepage.ntlworld.com/macandrew/Grenada_disaster/Grenada_disaster.htm

 

[hecd2]

Matt16_18:

You are on the right track. The first point that I would make is that Catholics have to accept that the Church teaches that death, disease, and decay were not in the universe that Adam and Eve were dwelling in before the Fall. That means that the physical laws that governed the terrestrial paradise were radically different than the physical laws that govern our universe (the Kingdom of Darkness). Decay is “built in” to the physical laws that govern the fallen world, i.e. the laws of entropy, the laws governing radioactive decay, etc. With an entirely different set of physical laws governing the universe that contained the terrestrial paradise, it is obviously true that DNA as we know it in the fallen world could not exist there, since the DNA of the fallen world is formed and shaped by the processes of disease, decay, and death.

Dear Matt, well since we have extremely strong reasons for believing that the physical laws of the universe have been the same since the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, when do you propose that this ‘pre-Fall’ paradise existed? Observations of quasars, for example out to z>4 show that the fine structure constant has changed by no more than one part in 100,000 in billions of years. Since the fine structure constant is a fundamental measure of physics, that would put the Fall billions of years ago. If there was no death before the Fall it would have to predate the first fossils we find which are bacteria and Archaea 3 billion years ago and and the earliest bilaterians more than 750 million years ago.

Perhaps something similar to DNA existed in the pre-fall Universe, but I rather doubt it. Adam and Eve were created to be above the plants and the animals in paradise – they were created to be the masters of nature. But the Fall brought Adam and Eve down to a degraded level of existence; instead of being masters of nature, they became the subjects of nature. Adam and Eve sinned by choosing the created to the Creator, and they suffered a punishment appropriate for that sin; they became slaves to the creation that they chose. It is an entirely appropriate punishment that Adam and Eve in the fallen universe should inhabit bodies with DNA that is 70% identical with that of turnips.

Your concept of a ‘pre-Fall’ universe is denied by observation, and your ideas about its composition are entirely fantastical. When we look back in the past, as far back as we can see, to the decoupling of matter and energy at z=1079, there is not a shred of evidence for a universe with laws any different from the universe we live in today. Your ‘pre-Fall’ universe idea has no more support from empirical observations than do Santa Clause, the Easter bunny, fairies at the bottom of the garden or Narnia.

Alec
homepage.ntlworld.com/macandrew/Grenada_disaster/Grenada_disaster.htm

 

[hecd2]

Matt16_18:

What a faithful Catholic cannot believe, is the view that death, disease, and decay were already in the world before the first human beings (Adam and Eve) came into existance. That is my real point of contention with Hecd2 and Ghosty.

Dear Matt,

That is utterly absurd. Catholics do NOT have to hold the obviously false fantasy that death did not exist before Adam and Eve. Your interpretation is not the interpretation of the Church, and it would mean that there are no faithful Catholics who are also professional scientists.

As I pointed out in a previous reply, since we can see evidence for dead creatures that extends back more than 3 billion years, your notion would mean that Adam and Eve lived 3 billion years ago, a patently absurd claim.

In passing, I point out that the evidence also disallows the existence of two sole ancestors for humanity.

Alec
homepage.ntlworld.com/macandrew/Grenada_disaster/Grenada_disaster.htm

 

[hecd2]

Charity:

Modern humans (historical man) are derived solely from two pre-Fall (original man) human ancestors, Adam & Eve.

That is not what the evidence says. The evidence does not allow a bottleneck of two individuals in human ancestry in the last 6 million years.

What is unclear is whether traditional genetics and molecular biology can be a basis for analysis of this truth since A & E were originally in a radically different physical & spiritual condition and environment than our current condition post-fall.

Different in what respect and how do you know this?

There are still too many unknown and uncertain variables to allow scientific closure on mongenism. Molecular genetics should investigate other possibilities, such as an alternatively configured or expanded genome, or pristine genotype, in the original parents, fresh from the creative process of God.

What, precisely are these uncertain and unknown variables in the evidence, that leads us to conclude that the lineage leading to humans did not pass through a bottleneck of two individuals? The evidence that humans evolved in a completely natural way from a common ancestor with chimpanzees is overwhelming and that evidence does not support population in the human lineage of less than 10,000 individuals in any generation. Are you actually aware of what that evidence is?

The biology leaves room for other hypotheses.

Such as?

The biology leaves room for other premises and pre-assumptions.

Such as?

The biology certainly leaves room for reinterpretation and revision based on future findings.

That is always the case in science, but such findings would have to be compatible with the current evidence, which leaves no room for a bottleneck of two individuals (I repeat, do you know what that is?). Being open to reinterpretation in the light of new findings doesn’t mean ignoring extant data.

Alec
homepage.ntlworld.com/macandrew/Grenada_disaster/Grenada_disaster.htm

 

[Matt16_18]

Ghosty:

It’s unclear whether or not death entering the world refers to human or all creation.

The church is not at all unclear on this matter. You are making God the author of death, and that is wrong. Death is the enemy of God, and Christ died on the Cross to defeat death. The Church clearly teaches that it is because of Original Sin that creation became subject to death and decay.

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

413** “God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living. . . It was through the devil’s envy that death entered the world” (Wis 1:13; 2:24).

400 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.[284]

Footnote 284: Rom 8:21.

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 8: 19-21

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. **The last enemy to be destroyed is death.**1Cor. 15:22-26​

 

[Matt16_18]

hecd2:

Dear Matt, well since we have extremely strong reasons for believing that the physical laws of the universe have been the same since the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, when do you propose that this ‘pre-Fall’ paradise existed?

Where do Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory exist? Do you believe that Hell is literally in some hot place deep in the earth, and that Heaven is located above the clouds in the sky? Or do you believe that Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory belong to the same realm as where you place angels – a realm of fanciful stories that science has debunked?

 

[hecd2]

Matt16_18:

hecd2:

Dear Matt, well since we have extremely strong reasons for believing that the physical laws of the universe have been the same since the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, when do you propose that this ‘pre-Fall’ paradise existed?

Where do Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory exist? Do you believe that Hell is literally in some hot place deep in the earth, and that Heaven is located above the clouds in the sky? Or do you believe that Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory belong to the same realm as where you place angels – a realm of fanciful stories that science has debunked?

Dear Matt

I’m sorry, I fail to see the relevance of your questions. You asserted confidently that the physical laws in the universe were fundamentally different pre-Fall. Since the very strong evidence is that the physical laws of the universe have not changed for 13.7 billion years (eg no change in fine structure constant) and death has existed for 3 billion years (dead fossils found), I asked you ***when ***the pre-Fall paradise existed. You failed to answer the question, instead asking me about the location of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. I cannot answer that question which is irrelevant to the point under discussion. Can you?

Alec
homepage.ntlworld.com/macandrew/Grenada_disaster/Grenada_disaster.htm

 

[SCTA-1]

hecd2:

Dear Matt

I’m sorry, I fail to see the relevance of your questions. You asserted confidently that the physical laws in the universe were fundamentally different pre-Fall. Since the very strong evidence is that the physical laws of the universe have not changed for 13.7 billion years (eg no change in fine structure constant) and death has existed for 3 billion years (dead fossils found), I asked you ***when ***the pre-Fall paradise existed. You failed to answer the question, instead asking me about the location of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. I cannot answer that question which is irrelevant to the point under discussion. Can you?

Alec
homepage.ntlworld.com/macandrew/Grenada_disaster/Grenada_disaster.htm

Very interesting observation Alec.When did the pre-Fall paradise exist and does Adam and Eve go beyond 3 billion years? I’m finding this debate very interesting and Alec is bringing up very good points.

 

[Matt16_18]

hecd2:

I asked you ***when ***the pre-Fall paradise existed. You failed to answer the question, instead asking me about the location of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. I cannot answer that question …

The pre-Fall paradise still exists. The fallen universe where the children of the wrath dwell, the universe that is subject to death, disease, and decay is not the *only * universe that exists. Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are not located in this universe, nor is the paradise where Adam and Eve once dwelled. Read Genesis carefully; Adam and Eve’s sin did not destroy paradise - Adam and Eve were cast out of paradise *after * they sinned.

Why is it that so many Catholics have no problem believing that Heaven exists, and yet, are so dull of mind that they seem to lack the ability to imagine that paradise can still exist in another universe? Scripture testifies that the Garden of Eden still exists, and many saints have spoken about its continued existence. Why is this so very difficult for the Catholics of our time to accept? If we can believe that a piece of bread can become God, surely it cannot be that hard to imagine that it is at least a possibility that paradise still exists in another universe. And yet, many Catholics seem to be unable to even grasp this (relatively) simple concept.

Science can’t tell us anything about Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory, but that doesn’t prevent most Catholics from believing that these realms exist outside of our universe. The science of a fallen universe that is passing away into oblivion cannot answer all questions about human life.

God is fecund. Perhaps God has created many other physical realms solely for his own delight.

 

[markcolle]

JESUS HAD TYPE AB BLOOD AND HE DID NOT HAVE DNA. bLOOD AND TISSUE SAMPLES WERE TAKEN FROM A HOLY EUCHARIST. I WAS AT A SCIENTIFIC TALK ABOUT THE TRUE PRESENCE OF JESUS IN THE EUCHARIST AND TEH SCIENTIST WAS A PART OF THE TESTING. END OF DISCUSSION.

 

[marciadietrich]

markcolle:

JESUS HAD TYPE AB BLOOD AND HE DID NOT HAVE DNA. bLOOD AND TISSUE SAMPLES WERE TAKEN FROM A HOLY EUCHARIST. I WAS AT A SCIENTIFIC TALK ABOUT THE TRUE PRESENCE OF JESUS IN THE EUCHARIST AND TEH SCIENTIST WAS A PART OF THE TESTING. END OF DISCUSSION.

Hello Mark,

First, any private revelation - which would include eucharistic miracles - is not binding on the faithful and not guaranteed free of error. Let alone any scientific testing done on a private revelation being binding or guaranteed free from error.

Second, if there was AB blood, that would seem to be evidence that there was DNA. Bloodtype is an inherited trait. I’m O+ like my father, my sister and brother are A+ like my mother. My husband is A+ and two of our children A+ and one child O+.

Lastly, end of discussion? I highly doubt it. lol Now we can speculate if Mary had AB bloodtype or A or B bloodtype.

Marcia

 

[ISABUS]

Matt16_18:

Why is it that so many Catholics have no problem believing that Heaven exists, and yet, are so dull of mind that they seem to lack the ability to imagine that paradise can still exist in another universe? Scripture testifies that the Garden of Eden still exists, and many saints have spoken about its continued existence. Why is this so very difficult for the Catholics of our time to accept? If we can believe that a piece of bread can become God, surely it cannot be that hard to imagine that it is at least a possibility that paradise still exists in another universe. And yet, many Catholics seem to be unable to even grasp this (relatively) simple concept.

Science can’t tell us anything about Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory, but that doesn’t prevent most Catholics from believing that these realms exist outside of our universe. The science of a fallen universe that is passing away into oblivion cannot answer all questions about human life.

God is fecund. Perhaps God has created many other physical realms solely for his own delight.

Hi Matt,

Your response above is directed to Alec. Aren’t you aware he isn’t a Catholic?

As far as Paradise or Heaven goes, I have to admit that I have on occasion glimpsed very briefly into that dimension. I know it exists. Well, that is another topic in itself. Yes, it makes sense to me that where there is beauty there is the ugly. A place where someones mind was so corrupt on this plane that it lived in a world of corruption and decay and be it Hell then so be it. I haven’t seen it. Thank heavens for that!

Some scientists speculate there may be as many as ten dimensions within our universe. Let me put it this way, we haven’t seen nothing yet except for what our eyes can see. Someday in the future we’ll be able to see a whole lot more because our bodies and minds will have evolved as they have over the centuries.

God bless you for all that you do and will continue to do ~

Isabus

 

[Matt16_18]

Charity:

Modern humans (historical man) are derived solely from two pre-Fall (original man) human ancestors, Adam & Eve. What is unclear is whether traditional genetics and molecular biology can be a basis for analysis of this truth since A & E were originally in a radically different physical & spiritual condition and environment than our current condition post-fall.

The most radical physical difference between the pre-Fall world and our world was that death, disease, and decay were unknown in paradise. The Catholic Church teaches that the physical world will be restored to its original state after the Final Judgement, a doctrine that Ghosty and hecd2 have trouble accepting, since they believe that death was already in the world before Adam and Eve came into existance. **Catechism of the Catholic Church

1046** For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, “so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just,” sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.​

The saints with immortal physical bodies dwelling in the restored creation will be able to swim underwater and play with immortal dolphins, in a sea where there is no darkness. Sounds like fun to me!

 

[SCTA-1]

Now I’m totally lost… Is paradise and heaven the same place? Pre-Fall paradise still exists, is it heaven or a separate place? Who goes there? I always thought that the paradise of Adam and Eve was here on earth and not in a different part of space.I never heard this in Catholic theology.Enlighten me please!

 

[Matt16_18]

marciadietrich:

Bloodtype is an inherited trait. I’m O+ like my father, my sister and brother are A+ like my mother. My husband is A+ and two of our children A+ and one child O+.

Lastly, end of discussion? I highly doubt it. lol Now we can speculate if Mary had AB bloodtype or A or B bloodtype.

Marcia

Let’s do just that!

I know a person that used to work at the Stanford Medical Center with surrogate mothers. Apparently healthy young women can make pretty good money having embryos implanted in their wombs, embryos in which the surrogate mother provides none of the DNA. The question of Jesus’ DNA is something worth thinking about, because it raises this question: “Was Mary a surrogate mother?”

It seems unreasonable to me to think that Mary didn’t provide at least half the DNA of Jesus, something that any natural mother would provide for her son. But what about the other half of the DNA that Jesus possessed? Natural mothers don’t provide all the DNA of their sons, and it has been rightly pointed out that if Mary provided ALL the DNA of Jesus, that Jesus would be her identical twin (and that Jesus couldn’t possibly be a male). So at least some of the DNA of Jesus came from another source. Whether that DNA was created ex nihilo, was DNA transformed by God out of pieces of Mary’s DNA, or was DNA from another human being (or human beings) is what we are speculating about.

I am partial to the speculation that half of Jesus’ DNA came from Mary, and that the other half came from another human (humans?) source. I think that the two different genealogies of Jesus by Matthew and Luke have more significance than we realize.

Did Mary look at her son the way that a normal mother sees her son, or did she see Jesus in the way that a surrogate mother sees the child she bore? I do not believe that Mary was Jesus’ surrogate mother. That said, did St. Joseph see Jesus’ as his stepson, or does St. Joseph’s genealogy in Matthew’s Gospel hide a mystery? Could Jesus have had some of Joseph’s DNA too? Is that absolutely impossible?

I am not in any way suggesting that Mary did not miraculously conceive her only child, or that she was anything but a virgin for her entire life. But I do think that it is possible that Joseph may have provided at least some of the DNA of Jesus. In fact, both Mary and Joseph had common ancestors, so Joseph is a blood relative of Jesus even if Mary provided all the DNA of Jesus.

I make my speculations because devotion to St. Joseph is not very strong in the Catholic Church anymore, and in an era where the popular culture portrays even natural fathers as buffoons and not being really necessary for family … well, I think that we need to bring back a devotion to St. Joseph for many reasons.

 

[Matt16_18]

SCTA-1:

Now I’m totally lost… Is paradise and heaven the same place?

No, they are not the same place. Adam and Eve were not cast out of Heaven.

 

[ISABUS]

SCTA-1:

Now I’m totally lost… Is paradise and heaven the same place? Pre-Fall paradise still exists, is it heaven or a separate place? Who goes there? I always thought that the paradise of Adam and Eve was here on earth and not in a different part of space.I never heard this in Catholic theology.Enlighten me please!

Hi SCTA-1,

‘Paradise is a Persian word meaning park or pleasure ground. In the book of Genesis (2:8), it is used to designate the delightful garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve lived before the fall. The perfect happiness that man enjoyed in this primitive state gave rise to the later use of the word paradise to designate heaven, where the good enjoy eternal bliss after death’ (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Apoc. 2:7) Holy Catholic Bible, Catholic Encyclopedia, The Catholic Press, 1952, p.g. 187.

It was earlier brought to my attention by Alec that “Luke 23:43 in the King James translation to the good thief on the cross: ‘And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise’”

Peace ~
Isabus

 

[Matt16_18]

Father Schmöger, in his biography of the Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich, references an amazing quote by St. Hildegarde about the continuing existence of the terrestrial paradise:

The Fathers tell us that paradise still exists in all its first beauty…. The terrestrial paradise was not created for pure spirits, but for man composed of soul and body; consequently, it is provided with whatever is requisite not only for his sustenance but also for his safeguard against sickness and death, by virtue of the state of original justice in which he was first created. The creatures of this magnificent abode, its animals and plants, belong to a higher order, as much elevated above those of earth as the body of Adam before his sin was superior to his fallen posterity. And as the body of Adam was a real body of flesh and blood, not pure spirit, so, too, paradise is not a celestial or purely spiritual region, but a material place connected with human nature and earth itself. … St. Hildegarde says on this subject in her Scivias, Lib. I., visio II. :

“When Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise, a wall of light was raised around it, and the Divine Power effaced from it all marks of their sin. It was fortified, as it were, by this great light so that no enemy could reach it; but by this God also testified that the transgression which had taken place in paradise should in time be effaced by His mercy. Paradise still exists, a region of joy, blooming in all its pristine loveliness, and imparting abundant fruitfulness to the sterile earth. As the soul communicates life and strength to the body it inhabits, so the earth receives from paradise her supreme vitality; the darkness and corruption of sin, which shroud this miserable world cannot entirely check its influence.”
Carl E. Schmöger, C.SS.R., The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich, Volume 1, pp. 155-156, TAN Books and Publishers, INC., Rockford, Illinois​