Jesus' genetics

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pcusack1 said:
In order for the Catholic position to be correct, we must show that Jesus is the Descendant of David through King Solomon. Neither Matthew nor Luke shows this to be the case. The logical conclusion is naturally that we are still awaiting the Jewish Messiah until someone can show that Jesus is the long awaited Messiah- a Descendant of King David. It’s a matter of faith is not good enough these days. It’s not silly at all!
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Could you please give me the Scripture references that state the Messiah must come through the line of King Solomon.

I know the Messiah was to be David’s descendant - but I don’t recall ever reading that he had to be of King Solomon’s lineage. So, would appreciate your help locating the Scripture passages that specifically say the Messiah is to be a descendant of Solomon.

Thanks,
Nita
 
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)

from Wikipeduia Jewish Messiah

Also from “Mashiach” by Jacob Immanuel Schochet pg 37:

“The only qualification of his origin is that he is a descendant of King David through the lineage of his son Solomon.”
 
pcusack1 said:
If we don’t know then how can we claim that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah based on His genealogy form David and Solomon?
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Because the only human lines involved were descendants of David. Mary and his foster father were from the line of David. There is absolutely NO OTHER HUMAN LINEAGE BESIDES DAVID’S that can be assigned to the human flesh of Our Lord. In any Jewish registry at the time of Our Lord’s birth, He would have had to be registered under the line of David (and not Benjamin, Levi, Reuben, …etc.-since there is no genetic link to any other line!).

It was God who gave the prophecy. He stated it so it would be understandable to the people then and now. Knowledge of chromosomes (and of ordinary fertilization process) is recent. It had no critical bearing on the proper meaning of the prophecy.

Nita
 
How can Jesus inherite the Throne of David and Solomon if he doesn’t carry their Y-DNA which is passed from father to son…?

If God gave him his DNA - a copy of David’s -then God is his father and not David. If David gave him his DNA then he is a son of David and not God. Or else David would have to be God. Take your pick.
 
Sir_Anthony said:
This is probably a silly topic to talk about, but I wonder what some folks take on it is. As we understand human genetics, male and female supply 23 chromosomes each and humans have 46 chromosomes. Now my question is what would Jesus’ other 23 chromosomes be (besides Mary’s). Did God create 23 chromosomes specific for Jesus, or is other half of his genetic code also from Mary (which would parthenogenesis, something observed in fishes and reptiles, but not mammals)?
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All we need to do is to find a relic of Jesus with some of His DNA in it and analyse it. Is there any hair, fingernails or suchlike around? Perhaps the bloodstains on the Turin Shroud could be analysed. There is always the possibility of finding the correct Holy Prepuce, Holy Umbilical Cord or Holy Placenta.

rossum
 
If you claim that he is the Messiah, then the first point of consideration is :" Is he a descendant of David through Solomon" If you can’t show that through the Gospel’s, how else are you going to show it?
 
pcusack1 said:
If you claim that he is the Messiah, then the first point of consideration is :" Is he a descendant of David through Solomon" If you can’t show that through the Gospel’s, how else are you going to show it?
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Perhaps a “descendant of David through Solomon” is not to be take literally?
 
I think where the diescrpancy comes in is that the Jews believe that their Messiah is an ordinary human being; whereas Catholics believe that our Messiah is a God-Man. An ordinary human being has an ordinary father - a descendant of David. A God - Man has God as his father. That’s why there is a descrepancy between the male Y-DNA issue.

For me I believe that Jesus is the Messiah. But this is a stumbling point for many Jews according to several websites I’ve read.
 
pcusack1 said:
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)

from Wikipeduia Jewish Messiah

Also from “Mashiach” by Jacob Immanuel Schochet pg 37:

“The only qualification of his origin is that he is a descendant of King David through the lineage of his son Solomon.”
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The 1 Chronicle passage is David talking to Solomon about the earthly temple and kingdom.

Re the 2 Chronicle passage (cf also 1 Kings 9:1-9):
2 Chron 7:17-19 "…if you walk before me as David your father did, and do all I command, and observe my decrees… I will establish your royal throne, as I covenanted with David your father when I said, "You shall never fail to have a man to rule over Israel.

But if you turn away and forwake the decrees and commands I have given you and go off to serve other gods and worship them, then I will uproot Israel from my land, which I have given them, and will reject this temple…

The 2 Chronicles passage also sounds more like the earthly kingdom and temple. But allowing that it could have a double application and be a reference to the Messianic king/dom, it still doesn’t uphold the Messiah having to be from Solomon’s line, since Solomon did not remain faithful. Consider the following passage concerning Solomon’s later years; note especially God’s words to Solomon which I have bolded:
1 Kings 11:1-13 King Solomon however loved many foreign women… They were from nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites “You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods.” Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. …, and his wives led him astray. As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.

…Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of Ammonites. …

The LORD became angry with Solomon… Although He had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the LORD’s command. So the LORD said to Solomon, “**Since this is your attitude and you have not kept My covenant and My decrees, which I commanded you, I will most certainly tear the kingdom away from you **and give it to one of your subordinates. Nevertheless, for the sake of David your father, I will not do it during your lifetime. …Yet I will not tear the whole kingdom from him, but…”

The passages taken together (Kings and Chronicles) would actually lead one to think that the Messiah would not be from Solomon’s line.
 
pcusack1 said:
I think where the diescrpancy comes in is that the Jews believe that their Messiah is an ordinary human being; whereas Catholics believe that our Messiah is a God-Man. An ordinary human being has an ordinary father - a descendant of David. A God - Man has God as his father. That’s why there is a descrepancy between the male Y-DNA issue.

For me I believe that Jesus is the Messiah. But this is a stumbling point for many Jews according to several websites I’ve read.
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I don’t think it’s a stumbling block at all for the Jews.
It’s more a case of them trying to make it a stumbling block for Christians; to try and sow doubt in our minds. They know well enough that the descendancy ascribed by their nation/religion to Jesus when He was living, was the “line of David”. They also know that if God is Jesus’ Father, the only human lineage that can be acknowledged for Jesus is that of the line of David, a maternal lineage. Biblical prophecies give a Davidic human lineage for the Messiah. But they allude to a Divine lineage also when they say He shall be called “Immanuel” (God with us).

Nita
 
Solomon was King. The King Messiah must descend from a King, not Nathan.
 
I may have a solution to the DNA dilemma.

“The Torah based tradition is that the Jewish nationality is determined by the mother’s status and that tribal membership follows the father’s lineage.” pg 41 “DNA and Tradition”.

This means that Jesus was a Jew accroding to Mary’s lineage, and a descendant of the Tribe of Juda by adoption by Joseph.

Now Ps 138:11 tells us that"The Lord swore a promise to David and he will remain true to it: “I will keep your descendance on your Throne”

Therefore Jesus must have been given David’s Y-DNA by God at conception. Thus we have Jesus named “Son of God” and “Son of David”.

The only probelm is that Kingship is passed on by bloodline. We don’t know that Jesus has David’s bloodline for sure since he is adopted only by Joseph. I’ll give it the benefit of the doubt.
 
pcusack1 said:
Psalm 138:11 for example
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Sorry, no such verse in my Bible (only 8 verses in Ps 138)
The Messiah’s kingdom was not an earthly kingdom, as you know. It was a heavenly kingdom; so was the kingship.

There’s no doubt that many of the Jews had misinterpreted the Messianic prophecies – taking them to mean a worldly kingdom with an earthly king; and interpreting the verses to promise material riches.

But I have to say, you are really wanting to reduce things to the material level when you give the physical DNA such key importance.
 
Sorry Its Psalm 132:11

The material level is not the issue. The issue is can Catholics show that Jesus is a descendant of King David though King Solomon. I haven’t seen anything yet that shows this to be true. Scientic analysis is not evil,; it was devised by God. He said" I am the …Truth" Science is the broadening of our knowledge -truth. If God is true, and scripture is true, then we must trust that Jesus is a descendant of David, which can be shown by any truthful method.
 
Verbum said:
Hi Passus,

Your reasoning seems to be based on the fact that Mary had to be a descendant of David. This is not proven and needs not be proved. It is enough that Joseph, the legal father of Jesus, be a descendant of David.

As for the rest, the incarnation is a miracle, and it is vain to look for scientific explanations.

Verbum
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Uh, no it isn’t. If I thought so, I wouldn’t have linked to an article detailing Jewish law and the legal implications of Levirate adoption.
 
pcusack1 said:
How can Jesus inherite the Throne of David and Solomon if he doesn’t carry their Y-DNA which is passed from father to son…?

If God gave him his DNA - a copy of David’s -then God is his father and not David. If David gave him his DNA then he is a son of David and not God. Or else David would have to be God. Take your pick.
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You missed a possibility, that David is also a son of God - see Psalm 2:7. 🙂

rossum
 
See Post #35. Actually, being from the Tribe of Judah is not enough. The Messiah must be a scion of David.

How then is Jesus a “son of David” if adoption doesn’t count for Kingly lineage?
 
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