- Status
D
DLClark
Guest
Frank, what if you are wrong about what believe the Bible says about Jesus being God. Would you be open to seeing what the Bible has to say on this issue?
F
Frank4YAHWEH
Guest
“Jesus IS God!” Is A Hypocritical Teaching
Catholics are the ones who intermingled the traditional teaching of the pagan Trinity with the inspired teachings of Father Yahweh making His word of none effect.
Looking at the structure of 2 Cor. 4:4, it’s clear that Paul is not writing that Satan is “The God (TITLE) of this world.” He’s writing that Satan is “The god (theos-- not used as a title.)” Because of the words “of this world”, “ho” just has to be put before “theos”. It’s the way the structure and the grammar works. We figure this out by context. Jesus was always called “The God (TITLE)”. There is nothing about the way Jesus was called “The God” that suggests that he was only a god, not the God.
Theos is always a title and never a name. I would challenge you to show me anywhere that the word theos is used as a name.
F
Frank4YAHWEH
Guest
Shaul did not invent traditions of his own and intermingle them with the inspired teachings of Father Yahweh. Shaul had no connection with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church perverted Shaul’s teaching as the do the rest of the Scripture.
As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction (2 Kepha [Peter] 3:16).
You said:
I showed you where ‘ho theos’ is used in transaltion to talk about someone other than Yahweh. Ho theos is two seperate words.* Ho* or o is the word translated ‘the’ and theos is the word translated ‘God or god’. Theos is not a name. It is a title that has been given in reference to Father Yahweh, gods or idols. I do not refer to Father Yahweh or His son Yahshua as “God or god” for the simply fact that Father Yahweh forbade the worship of “God or god”. It is also not my practice to capitalize on this heathen (nationalistic) word/name/title that has been substituted for our Heavenly Father and Creator’s Name and Yahweh’s attribute as our Almighty One.
God – This word comes to us from a “…Common Teutonic [German] word for personal worship, formerly applicable to super-human beings of heathen myth; on conversion of Teutonic races to Christianity, term was applied to the Supreme Being.” Encyclopedia Americana (1945 Edition).
The Hebrew people in direct disobedience to Father Yahweh turned to worshipping the Canaanite deity El whose son is Baal (“the LORD”). “The LORD (Capitalized)” is the most common word that has been substituted for our Heavenly Father and Creator’s Name. The word lord actually means ‘keeper of the loaf’ or ‘bread guardian’. This in no way comes even close to what the Name Yahweh means. In the English language lord is a title and not a name. In the Bible wives referred to their husbands as lords. Hmmmm! Could this be where the expression “bread winner” came from? In most cases this is used in reference to husbands. The word lord is also used in reference to deities eg. “Lord Krishna (KRSNA)”.
Lord – Means Keeper of the loaf. “Middle English loverd, lord, from Old English hlaford, from hlaf loaf + weard keeper. One having power and authority over others.” Merriam-Webster Dictionary, (1974 Edition).
“The LORD” also would be an inferior title in reference to our Heavenly Father and Creator or in reference to His son, since the term ‘King’ stands primary in English nobility. Is it not ironic that the AKJV replaces our Heavenly Father and Creator’s Name Yahweh with the mere title ‘the LORD’ and James has the title of King tagged to his name? The word lord actually means ‘keeper of the loaf’ or ‘bread guardian’. This in no way comes even close to what the Name Yahweh means. In the English language lord is a title and not a name. In the Bible wives refered to their husbands as lords. Hmmmm! Could this be where the expression “bread winner” came from? In many cases this expression is used in reference to husbands. The word lord is also used in reference to deities eg. “Lord Krishna (KRSNA)”. [Middle English, from Old English hlford : hlf, bread + weard, guardian; see wer-3 in Indo-European Roots.]- dictionary.reference.com/browse/lord.
The Name Yahweh means 'He Who causes to be." or Creator.
But you are those who forsake Yahweh, who forget My set apart mountain, who prepare a table for *that troop… {gad, pronounced “gawd” [god] - the gods of Luck and Fortune} (Isayah 65:11).
… they have forgotten My Name for Baal {“the LORD”} (Yeremyah 23:27).
The Jews substituted the Name Yahweh for the Phoenician god , Handsome and Young God.
J
JJ59
Guest
If it’s a hypocritical teaching, call me a hypocrite. Don’t bash me for being not officially Catholic if it has nothing to do with the argument. That’s ad hominem.
Yes, I meant that “ho theos” is used as Yahweh’s title. “Theos” is a title, but doesn’t always mean Yahweh. That’s where it really matters.
J
JJ59
Guest
Please give relevant examples of how Catholic teaching is “intermingled” with human teaching, and how this is different from Paul. (Remember, Tradition is passed down through generations)
I get the whole “theos” being a title thing. My point is that “ho theos” was always used as Yahweh’s title, and just “theos” can be idols, demons, or sometimes Yahweh. 2 Cor. 4:4 just refers to Satan as “theos”, but “ho” had to be put at the start to make it correct. We mustn’t ignore the linguistics!
Thanks for all the info on those divine names, but I think you misunderstood my argument. (See above.)
God Bless.
L
look3467
Guest
The spiritual message is being wrapped up in a wrapper advertising the desired massage of what some may think is the spiritual message.
So the argument goes as to whose advertised message on the wrapper is the better of all, while the true spiritual message is clouded in all of it.
Look at the works of God as a whole (in the whole of the bible) and see if you can not pick out what the real spiritual message is, if not that God is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God.
Mankind well,…is a beneficiary of Gods works!
Blessings>>>AJ
So the argument goes as to whose advertised message on the wrapper is the better of all, while the true spiritual message is clouded in all of it.
Look at the works of God as a whole (in the whole of the bible) and see if you can not pick out what the real spiritual message is, if not that God is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God.
Mankind well,…is a beneficiary of Gods works!
Blessings>>>AJ
A
Auriel
Guest
Actually, he is not trying to be a troll, he really believes all this. And if he is like a few other Sacred Namers, Yahwist, etc…etc…I know, then he feels he must tell others so that they will be armed with knowledge and have a choice to…“Come out of her my people…” They see the Church as part of a Babylon system. Well, some do. It gets confusing. My friends in that movement do not go to church but have scripture studies or Torah studies. If he is like them then he is not on the computer now, his sabbath has already started.People-give Frank short shrift.read his website and links-he is obnoxiously anti-catholic.This guy is a troll .Don’t give him the time of day.
I am still friends with most of them, though not all were exactly like Frank, A few changed over to Oneness and dual covenant theology. I had to break contact with what I thought was a good friend, because she could not respect my trinity beliefs. In fact she got down right arrogant and belligerent and I do not like the name of Jesus being dragged through the mud. I consider all his names sacred. I have no problem with Yahshua. But Jesus is what I know him by. And he was both fully God, and fully man.
Frank, I do not like blanket statements and I know beliefs vary just as in other religions, .
But I knew you would not like Paul. So far I have never met one sacred namer type that did. Now I am just waiting for the “Jesus/Yahshua was not a Jew” and the “Khazar” comments to start. Though there are so many posts now, maybe you did and I missed it!
I do understand though that Zionism and Judaism are two separate things. Just do not let yourself get sucked into the Christian Identity Movement.
You are different from others that I know as for as your feelings on Paul in that you believe that his writings were corrupted (bad enough)…not Paul himself. The ex friend would rail how Paul had the Anti-Christ spirit and was there to deceive the early Christians. And you have not mentioned a Serpent Seedline…so far.
I caught the meaning behind some of the remarks you made, such as when you told a poster that they took THEIR God and divided him into three. You believe that we worship a pagan sungod. I saw the graphic on one of the websites you listed, Pretty insulting, The Trinity has nothing to do with a three headed god or Cerberus the three headed dog. You probably do not like crosses either, even plain ones.
The Trinity is not confusing to me, it is beautiful and simple.
I am not a Catholic. And some may disagree with me here, but I also believe that you will get what you have. My problem with your beliefs besides the obvious is that it is legalistic in nature. Granted it is not the only legalistic belief out there. But are you depending on the law to save you? If so then you better follow the law, to the letter of the law.
I cant do that, I would rather put my trust in Jesus instead of trusting myself to follow a bunch of rules so that I may feel in control. Legalism deadens the soul.
I bet your REAL fun at Christmas. j/k
Peace out.
S
SHW
Guest
You are incorrect. Satan copied the Trinity for his deceptions. The Trinity existed first.
Just why do you think that Jesus commanded that persons be baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? If They are not a Trinity but there is only one God, then Jesus would be committing blasphemy if He commanded this.
Matthew 28:18-20 “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’
Amen.”
The Blessed Trinity is one God in three Divine Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Pax,
SHW
A
Auriel
Guest
After some of the blasphemous things I saw on those websites I felt like posting this.
Man, you Catholics must be rubbing off on me! LOL As a non catholic we just view the word “Catholic” as “Universal.” I always thought the Nicene Creed was so Beautifully written!
**~The Nicene Creed~
I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
~AMEN.
**
Man, you Catholics must be rubbing off on me! LOL As a non catholic we just view the word “Catholic” as “Universal.” I always thought the Nicene Creed was so Beautifully written!
**~The Nicene Creed~
I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
~AMEN.
**
S
SHW
Guest
You are correct. Catholic means universal. The Nicene Creed is beautiful and is taught by all 15+ branches of the Catholic Church (as in Roman Catholic, Greek Byzantine Catholic, etc.) plus many Protestant Churches also.
Pax,
SHW
S
SHW
Guest
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Gabriel of 12; Sure;
Jesus just previously in verse 17, told Simon (Peter) God has revealed this to you, of who Jesus was the “Son of the Living God” Then began to builld his church upon “Kephas” or “Peter”. Now when Jesus predicts his passion, Peter the first of the apostles speaks against God’s will (the Crucifixion), and rebukes (now) Peter to get behind him Satan. Now here is where you miss the boat, because when Jesus rebukes Satan who is decieving Peter to go against God’s will, Jesus because his is God incarnate puts behind him the powers and principalites of Satan who is trying to work through Peter. But Jesus has prayed for Peter “Kephas” singular.
The powers and principalities are put at bay, when Jesus tells Peter who he is supposed to be thinking as God does not as human beings do. Like you Frank; who interpret scripture not as God does, but as human beings with carnal knowledge do.
What is interesting when Jesus is revealing all these mysteries to our first Pope “Kepha”, He Peter, walks on water, raises the dead, excommunicates, and welcomes the Gentiles world into Christianity.
Frank, the Jews who did not accept the revelations of Jesus Christ “God Incarnate” are very cold, the Catholics are very Hot because the Holy Spirit has been given to her at Pentecost. But you “Frank” are neither, making you “lukewarm” with your mental religion of God, these Jesus will spew out of his mouth.
Now if Jesus can spit you out of his mouth, shouldn’t that make you think, his is Divine inorder to do so?
Peace be with you
P
planten
Guest
** Gabriel of 12, please let me know who told you that Jesus was God? How did you come to know that Jesus was God? Was it Jesus himself? Or some other person? This has come up in another thread and reply is needed.
How do you know that Jesus is God? I can never believe such a thing. **
How do you know that Jesus is God? I can never believe such a thing. **
S
scooter469
Guest
Question: “What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?”
Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not used in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God, the fact that there are three coexistent, co-eternal persons that make up God. Understand that this is NOT in any way suggesting three Gods. The Trinity is one God made up of three persons. There is nothing wrong with using the term “Trinity” even though the word is not found in the Bible, Bible verses will be given in discussion of the Trinity.
The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.
None of the popular illustrations are completely accurate descriptions of the Trinity. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not parts of God, each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better but still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration. Instead of focusing on the Trinity, try to focus on the fact of God’s greatness and infinitely higher nature than our own. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34)
Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not used in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God, the fact that there are three coexistent, co-eternal persons that make up God. Understand that this is NOT in any way suggesting three Gods. The Trinity is one God made up of three persons. There is nothing wrong with using the term “Trinity” even though the word is not found in the Bible, Bible verses will be given in discussion of the Trinity.
- There is one God: Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.
- The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14. In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun “Elohim” is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. That “Elohim” and “us” refer to more than two is without question. In English, we only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word “Elohim” and the pronoun “us” are plural forms—definitely more than two—and must be referring to three or more, in this case Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
- The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages: In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament John 14:16-17, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit. This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all of the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity—the Father.
- Each member of the Trinity is God: The Father is God: John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2. The Son is God: John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16. (The One who indwells is the Holy Spirit - Romans 8:9; John 14:16-17; Acts 2:1-4).
- The subordination within the Trinity: Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see: Luke 22:42; John 5:36; John 20:21; 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see: John 14:16; 14:26; 15:26; 16:7 and especially John 16:13-14.
- The tasks of the individual members of the Trinity: The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus’ human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.
The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.
None of the popular illustrations are completely accurate descriptions of the Trinity. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not parts of God, each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better but still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration. Instead of focusing on the Trinity, try to focus on the fact of God’s greatness and infinitely higher nature than our own. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34)
S
SHW
Guest
Hi Gabriel of 12,
I believe that you have misinterpreted this Scripture passage:
Mark 8:33 "But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
Jesus clearly states that He rebuked Peter and calls him (Peter) Satan. He did not rebuke Satan, the deceiver. He was telling Peter to get behind Him (to understand the truth about Jesus’ upcoming crucifixion and death) and to not be deceived by his own deceptive (satanic) thinking. (Revelation 12:9) Peter was acting like Satan so Jesus called him Satan.
**
Navarre Bible Commentary:**
The dialogue with Peter (8:31-33) provides an image of the paradox of Christianity: Peter finds it hard to see how Jesus’ victory could possibly involve the cross: Jesus publicly rebukes him because this human way of looking at things is at odds with God’s plan.
Pax,
SHW
S
SHW
Guest
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Gabriel of 12;
First of all, planten, who told you Jesus was not God incarnate? I believe we can engage from this perspective in our understandings;
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Gabriel of 12;Hi Gabriel of 12,
I believe that you have misinterpreted this Scripture passage:
Mark 8:33 "But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
Jesus clearly states that He rebuked Peter and calls him (Peter) Satan. He did not rebuke Satan, the deceiver. He was telling Peter to get behind Him (to understand the truth about Jesus’ upcoming crucifixion and death) and to not be deceived by his own deceptive (satanic) thinking. (Revelation 12:9) Peter was acting like Satan so Jesus called him Satan.
**
Navarre Bible Commentary:**
The dialogue with Peter (8:31-33) provides an image of the paradox of Christianity: Peter finds it hard to see how Jesus’ victory could possibly involve the cross: Jesus publicly rebukes him because this human way of looking at things is at odds with God’s plan.
Pax,
SHW
SHW, I do not see how the interpretation I provided is wrong, when it does not disagree with your view. Heres my take; This passage corrolates to the “protoevangelium” from Genesis 3:15, when God speaks to the serpent. What I have provided deals with the prophecy, the battle against powers and prinicipalities, we are sayiing the same thing but your take comes from the natural face value of what is presented, my take comes from the eternal Words of God, niether is wrong, only differ from which perspective you chose to take.
The Church teaches three aspects to scriptural interpretation; We have only revealed two of them here, that neither conflict with each other, one at the face value taken in time (temperal) of the writing or revelation which you have taken, to which I do not disagree, I have taken the eternal or (Spiritual) interpretation that reveals the prophecies, that fulfillment, and the coming of the Lord, dealing with the bigger picture of the battle of “powers and prinicipalities”. Remember here the name change from Simon to Peter, and Peter here was just given Power and Authority by Jesus himself, and minutes later already falls into temptation, that is why Jesus promised Peter and his church Jesus will never leave them, and will always be with us. Peter and the Church cannot do it alone without Jesus presence. Thus Peter’s Chair remains in the office of the Vicar of Jesus Christ the present day Pope Benedict XVI.
Good point you make, and there is much more to elaborate here;
Peace be with you
- Status