"Jesus IS God!"?

[Frank4YAHWEH]

My fried, it seems you have a problem understanding that Lord=God. If you don’t understand that…, then you have completely misunderstood the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. Try learning a thing or two…good luck!!

11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:11

Alejo

"Lord’ does not always equal ‘God’ in English translation as used in Scripture. Go back to school!

Baal Gad

The words ‘Lord’ and ‘God’ were used in substitution for the Name of our Heavenly Father and Creator.

The Name Yahweh

YHWH

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
I’ve showed that the argument isn’t relevant.

Then stop arguing!

I didn’t argue that the word “trinity” isn’t in Scripture. I showed it wasn’t relevant. You talk to the one who keeps bringing it up–they obviously aren’t listening too well. Maybe they will from you–but I wouldn’t get my hopes up. Point them to my tag line, maybe that will help.

 

[alejo]

I am constantly at school…that’s what a christian does,he learns to get closer to God, to Jesus. I insist…My Lord, when taking about Jesus, means My God…like I said, go learn a thing or two…it will take those silly doubts of your mind.

Peace and good night
Alejo

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I am constantly at school…that’s what a christian does,he learns to get closer to God, to Jesus. I insist…My Lord, when taking about Jesus, means My God…like I said, go learn a thing or two…it will take those silly doubts of your mind.

Peace and good night
Alejo

I was not talking about Christian schooling. You need a lesson or two in reading comprehension. Christian schools are old hat to me! I’ve moved on since then! Time for you to move on!

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I didn’t argue that the word “trinity” isn’t in Scripture. I showed it wasn’t relevant. You talk to the one who keeps bringing it up–they obviously aren’t listening too well. Maybe they will from you–but I wouldn’t get my hopes up. Point them to my tag line, maybe that will help.

I believe you confused me by responding to a post that I made to someone else. Some of the posts that are made in here I can not tell to which post or to who they are responding to.

 

[djconklin]

Some of the posts that are made in here I can not tell to which post or to who they are responding to.

Been there, done that!

 

[LilyM]

Nowhere in any translation of Scripture does it say “God became flesh.”

You say that Yahshua is not a spokesman of Father Yahweh’s word and is not His son. This is nothing but a bold-faced lie!

I am not into twisting Father Yahweh’s inspired word.

… they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction ( 3:16).

Frank - again, logic 101. If you have two propositions, A=B and B=C. and both are true, then it necessarily follows that A=C. Substitute ‘A’ for ‘4’, ‘B’ for ‘2+2’ and ‘C’ for ‘3+1’ and you’ll see that what I have said is correct and logical

ubstitute for A ‘God’, for B ‘the Word’.

Scripture is clear that God is the Word, since the Word is God. If 2+2 is 4, then it is equally true to say that 4 is 2+2, meaning that the two expressions are interchangeable. SO A=B (God is the Word) is right.

Then substitute ‘flesh’ for C. Well, it’s said in exactly so many words in Scripture that the Word is Flesh.

So how on earth is A (God) not C (flesh) in this scenario? To say He didn’t become flesh violates the rules of logic and is quite simply as untrue as saying that 2+2 isn’t equal to 3-1 or to 4.

 

[Sam_777]

:crying: I failed. It is the last statement, should have read the choice insteading of jumping in :crying:

:console:

 

[ralphinal]

I do not know why I waist time and energy to answer, but I will do so one more time. I hope you and Frank read this.

** I am surprised at the arguments of Catholics. If John is the one (gentile) who wrote the fourth gospel then my remarks are as follows:**
John was not a Gentile. John was one of the Apostles. He was a Jewish fisherman who Jesus called to follow him. Why can you noy understand that?

1. Why only John came to know about the “word+god” business?
   Who said he did? The Gospel of John was written in a particular style to a certain group to fill in some more of the story

1. Why did not mathew know about it?
2. Why not Mark and Luke know about it?

There is one and only one role for Jesus: the Salvation of all Mankind.

 

[DLClark]

First of all water baptism does not get us into any one. The Holy Spirit places us into Christ at salvation, 1 Cor. 12:13. The word Trinity is not found in the Bible but the concept is. The Bible says there is but one God Isa 44:6

6 "*Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:

'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
NASU*

The Bible says here that there is but one God and He knows of no other God.

The This God who knows of no other says that Jesus is God also,
Heb 1:1-12

*God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
" I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIMAND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
7 And of the angels He says,
“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”
8 But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOUWITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
10 And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” *NASU

God says there is no other God but Himself also says that Jesus Christ, His Son, is God and the Holy Spirit is God as well.
Notice that when Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, lied to the Holy spirit they lied to God.

Acts 5:1-5
*But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to **lie to the Holy Spirit **and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? **You have not lied to men but to God.” *NASU

This term Trinity is used to show the three in one aspect of God. You do not have to understand this concept but it is true. Jesus is as much God as God the Father is God. Jesus could not save you unless He was God. For only God can forgive sin.

 

[planten]

I do not know why I waist time and energy to answer, but I will do so one more time. I hope you and Frank read this.

John was not a Gentile. John was one of the Apostles. He was a Jewish fisherman who Jesus called to follow him. Why can you noy understand that?

1. Why only John came to know about the “word+god” business?

Who said he did? The Gospel of John was written in a particular style to a certain group to fill in some more of the story

You cannot establish that they did not. In fact, they DID know about it as they all heard it from the same sources: Jesus or John himself

I thought it was well established that John was a Jew, until I started reading posts from people who seem to know NOTHING about history.

No one turned God into a man. God emptied himself to become one. Gentiles or Jews had nothing to do with it.

It starts with a T and ends in rinity. All together now: TRINITY

So? THat does not change the fact that the text does say the Word, which IS GOD, became FLESH and DWELT among us. Only Jesus fits that part. As pointed out, if A=B and B=C, and C=D, then A=D. This is basic logic and basic math.

There is one and only one role for Jesus: the Salvation of all Mankind.

** ralph, you could not reply positively to my questions. You bypassed some of them or bundled them together. Why did Mathew and Mark and Luke keep quiet on the most important issue of the word becoming flesh and word being god? You cannot get away with it so easily.

Then A=B, B=C, C=D D=A, etc, quite a long winding way to prove something which should have been straight forward that jesus is God. But that is nowhere in the bible. can you show us that?

It is all one man show. When we say that Quran was revealed on the heart of Muhammad, you people say that is just one man report.
Here also it is just one man ( John, unknown) who is telling something quite unusual, illegal, quite impossible. But you believe it while you disbelieve Muhammad.**

 

[ralphinal]

** ralph, you could not reply positively to my questions. You bypassed some of them or bundled them together. Why did Mathew and Mark and Luke keep quiet on the most important issue of the word becoming flesh and word being god? You cannot get away with it so easily.

It is all one man show. When we say that Quran was revealed on the heart of Muhammad, you people say that is just one man report.

Here also it is just one man ( John, unknown) who is telling something quite unusual, illegal, quite impossible. But you believe it while you disbelieve Muhammad.**

Luke, Matthew, and Mark were all written before John. Again, John was written to fill in the story. The fact that they did not mention this part means nothing.

John was not unknown. John was not a Gentile. John was brother of James, called the Sons of Thunder by Jesus. I am having trouble why you do not understand that. John was the Beloved Disciple. He was the one who ran to the empty tomb but did not enter. He was the one to whom Jesus said “Behold your mother” at the cross. In fact, the Gospel of John SAYS that he was the one who wrote it and that we all know that he was there.

John walked with Jesus then told the story. Muhammed NEVER ONCE spoke to God face to face, it was through an angel that no one else saw. John’s story fits the other Gospels, Muhammed’s story contradicts all other writtings about God. This is not about that though.

This thread is about one thing: it is about denying the TRUTH by ignoring the Scriptures.

 

[DeRonde]

Again, I am not a Jehovah’s Witness. The JWs believe that Yahshua (“Jesus”) pre-existed his birth. I have said from the beginning in this forum thread that I do not espouse to such a foolish belief as this.

The Jews stated that Yahshua was making himself out to be “God” because of the authority (power) that he was given by his (and our) Father Yahweh. They believed that “God” alone could forgive sin. They were not aware that Father Yahweh had given his son Yahshua all authority in heaven and in earth especially since they did not believe he was the promised anointed one of his (and our) Father Yahweh (The Messiah).

“But, so that you may know that the son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins …”

Yahshua was given ALL authority by his (and our) Father Yahweh, and this included the authority (power) to forgive sin.

Yahshua was neither making himself out to be his (and our) Father Yahweh or claiming to be Father Yahweh. He never once claimed or proclaimed to be his (and our) Father Yahweh. Yahshua even went so far as to corrected them in saying that he was the son of man and the son of Father Yahweh. None of the apostles (those sent forth) or any of his disciple (students) never once claimed or proclaimed that Yahshua was his (and our) Father Yahweh. Even the Jews on a number of occasions asked Yahshua if he was the Messiah and never once asked him if he was “God”. In fact, at that time, no one had even thought that Yahshua was his (and our) Yahweh as is evidenced in the following question Yahshua had asked his disciples:

When Yahshua came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the son of man am? And they said, Some say that you are Yahchan who immerses: some, Yliyah; and others, Yeremyah, or one of the prophets ( 16:13-14).

No, at that time no one ever thought that Yahshua was “God”. When Yahshua asked them “But whom say you that I am?” Kepha replied “You are the Messiah, the son of the living Yahweh.” No, Kepha did not say that Yahshua was “God” but afirmed Kepha that flesh and blood had not revealed to him that he was the Messiah the son of the living Yahweh but, that it was Father Yahweh Himself Who is in heaven that had revealed this to him. Yahshua plainly stated when he was here on earth that his (and our) Father Yahweh was in heaven. Yahshua on a number of occasions throughout the so called “New Testament” made it known when he was here on earth that Father Yahweh was in heaven.

**You will die in your unbelief unless you repent. This is not that difficult, but somewhere down the road you have been misguided.

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God? Who is the Word? I and the Father are One…

Anyway; doesn’t really matter, the Bible says the “natural man” cannot understand the things of God, you are certainly living proof of this text.

If I had to explain the Trinity in a fallen human sense I would use myself as an example. I am married and have children and siblings. I am a parent, I am a spouse and I am a sibling (3 distinct personalities; yet one person)

You did not address the fact that the great commission says to Baptize them in the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; Name being singular.

I pray now for Yahweh’s blessing on you spiritual sight. God bless! **

 

[FCEGM]

Yahchanan 1:1 does not say “… and the word was Yahshua.”

All your affectation of Hebraisms can’t cover up pure silliness and a great lack of basic logic. Just Who do you think the Word Who was real light Who was in the world (vs. 9), Who came to His own people, Who gave power to become children of God to those who believed in His Name (vs. 11), Who was made flesh and dwelt among us (vs. 14), whose glory as the only Son of the Father we have seen, to Whom John gives witness (vs. 15) IS?

 

[SHW]

That is simple enough then! You worship a family of “Gods” that consist of three members, and I do not. Now that we have that settled, I guess that is the end of the discussion, right?

Wrong!

We do not worship a family of Gods. There is only one God but He consists of three persons. This is a mystery that we cannot fully comprehend with our finite minds. God is a trinity of persons. St. Patrick used the shamrock to help his flock understand the Trinity. The three individual petals make up one shamrock. They cannot be separated and still be a shamrock. It takes all three leaves to make one shamrock just as it takes all three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) to make one God.

If you read the whole chapter of John 1 all together without dividing it into sections, there can be no doubt that the Word is God and the Word is also Jesus in the flesh. Jesus is both God and Man. Jesus/Word is the second Person of the Blessed Trinity of God. God the Father is the first Person and God the Holy Spirit is the third Person. All three Persons together are one God.

The reason that Jesus has to be both God and Man is because He is the Mediator between God and man. Only someone who is both God and Man can mediate between us and God. Adam’s sin separated us from God. (Romans 5) No human could restore us to Him. Adam’s sin made us enemies of God. Jesus’ perfect sacrifice, since He was both God and Man, paid the debt for Adam’s sin and He redeemed us by His sacrifice. We can now become heirs with Christ as adopted children of God through baptism (Matthew 28:19).

Hebrews 9:15 “And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”

Hebrews 9:13-16 "For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Galatians 3:26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[planten]

** I am so confused about the church theology. The topic here is “jesus is God.” But some one said that God is not Jesus. How complicated !!

It means God is different to Jesus. So that makes at least two (gods). One Greater God and the other may be smaller one. Then we have to remember the church formula of Three (gods) in One (God) and One (God) in three (gods.). That is abbreviated into: three in one and one in three. That is expanded into “Three gods in One God and One God in three gods.”

I sthat not so? Who will explain such complex ideas?**

 

[ralphinal]

** I am so confused about the church theology. The topic here is “jesus is God.” But some one said that God is not Jesus. How complicated !!

It means God is different to Jesus. So that makes at least two (gods). One Greater God and the other may be smaller one. Then we have to remember the church formula of Three (gods) in One (God) and One (God) in three (gods.). That is abbreviated into: three in one and one in three. That is expanded into “Three gods in One God and One God in three gods.”

I sthat not so? Who will explain such complex ideas?**

One God with Three Divine Persons.

ONE GOD with three Divine Persons.

ONE GOD.

The Father is God, the Son is GOd, the Holy Spirit is God, there is ONE GOD.

The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father.

 

[SHW]

** I am so confused about the church theology. The topic here is “jesus is God.” But some one said that God is not Jesus. How complicated !!

It means God is different to Jesus. So that makes at least two (gods). One Greater God and the other may be smaller one. Then we have to remember the church formula of Three (gods) in One (God) and One (God) in three (gods.). That is abbreviated into: three in one and one in three. That is expanded into “Three gods in One God and One God in three gods.”

I sthat not so? Who will explain such complex ideas?**

One God, but three persons in this one God. All three Persons together make only one God. Picture a shamrock like I explained in the previous post #114. All three leaves make one shamrock. It must have all three leaves in order to be one complete shamrock. All three leaves are equal to each other just as all three persons of the Blessed Trinity are equal to each other. They each have different roles but they all work together to accomplish the will of God. We call all three of them “God” when we refer to them either collectively or separately.

The Father is God. The Word/Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. All three of these persons make only one God.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Wrong!

We do not worship a family of Gods. There is only one God but He consists of three persons. This is a mystery that we cannot fully comprehend with our finite minds. God is a trinity of persons. St. Patrick used the shamrock to help his flock understand the Trinity. The three individual petals make up one shamrock. They cannot be separated and still be a shamrock. It takes all three leaves to make one shamrock just as it takes all three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) to make one God.

If you read the whole chapter of John 1 all together without dividing it into sections, there can be no doubt that the Word is God and the Word is also Jesus in the flesh. Jesus is both God and Man. Jesus/Word is the second Person of the Blessed Trinity of God. God the Father is the first Person and God the Holy Spirit is the third Person. All three Persons together are one God.

The reason that Jesus has to be both God and Man is because He is the Mediator between God and man. Only someone who is both God and Man can mediate between us and God.

Adam’s sin separated us from God. (Romans 5) No human could restore us to Him. Adam’s sin made us enemies of God. Jesus’ perfect sacrifice, since He was both God and Man, paid the debt for Adam’s sin and He redeemed us by His sacrifice. We can now become heirs with Christ as adopted children (sons and daughters) of God through baptism (Matthew 28:19).

Hebrews 9:15 “And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”

Hebrews 9:13-16 "For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, CLEANSE YOUR CONSCIENCE FROM DEAD WRKS to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Galatians 3:26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Pax,
SHW

(Bolded red text as emphasis in your responce is mine)

Nowhere in Scripture is it taught “God … consists of three persons. God is a trinity of persons.” Nowhere in Scripture are we taught to use a shamrock to illustrate a Trinity and that "it takes all three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) to make one God. Nowhere in Scripture is it taught “Jesus has to be both God and Man … because He is the Mediator between God and man.” Nowhere in Scripture is it taught “The Word is also Jesus in the flesh.” or “Jesus/Word is the second Person of the Blessed Trinity of God.” These are nothing but erroneous human reasonings and words added to Father Yahweh’s inspired word.

As to “the whole chapter of John 1 all together without dividing it into sections”, I will in no way read this without dividing it since, it is obvious that there are different thoughts presented in this chapter in observing the context as a whole.

You said:

“We do not worship a family of Gods. There is only one God but He consists of three persons.”

I believe your doctrine says "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I can count! That is a family of three Gods, not one God. You can’t have it both ways. Either it is a three in one (triune - three unit) God that you worship or it is only one God that you worship. In fact, there is no mention in Scripture of a “God the Son” or a “God the Holy Spirit”. If you believe that this is a mystery and beyond your comprehension of your finite mind, then why on earth are you attempting to explain it? Your explanation reeks of mathematical confusion!

To Believe “Jesus IS God!” Is To Be Deceived!

Did Yahshua Create?

Continued …

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

You also said:

“Only someone who is both God and Man can mediate between us and God.”

Hebrews 1:1-2 makes it perfectly clear that the prophets of old were mediators (spokesmen) of Father Yahweh’s word before Yahshua was our mediator (spokesman). Moshe was the mediator of Father Yahweh’s teaching (torah, law, commandment). Note that in TRANSLATION (eg. K.J.V.) that Father Yahweh made Moshe a “god” unto Pharaoh:

And Yahweh said unto Moshe, See, I have made you a mighty one “god” - K.J.V., “yl” - Hebrew transliteration] to Pharaoh: and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet (Exodus 7:1).

In Hebrew yl or wl meant ‘power, strength or might’ and when in reference to Father Yahweh He was the Almighty the Supreme source of power.

In this last time period all power was given unto His son Yahshua by Father Yahweh (the Supreme source of power or authority) and he (Yahshua) is now our only mediator of the renewed contract (“testament, covenant”, [meaning agreement]) between Father Yahweh and man. Yahshua is now the mediator of a better contract between Yahweh and man. Yahshua is the prophet like unto Moshe:

Yahweh your Almighty One will raise up unto you a prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him you shall listen … (Deuteronomy 18:15).
Douay-Rheims Bible* W/Set Apart Names Restored
For there is ONE Yahweh, AND ONE mediator of Yahweh and men, the man Yahshua Messiah: … (1 Timothy 2:5).

There are two seperate beings (1+1=2) mentioned in this passage. One Yahweh and one mediator, the MAN Yahshua Messiah. Yahweh (“God”) is not a man or the son of man!

Yahweh is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: has He said, and shall He not do it? or has He spoken, and shall he not make it right? (Numbers 23:19)

And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow you wherever you go. And Yahshua said unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head ( 8:19-20).

To Believe “Jesus IS God!” Is To Be Deceived!

Did Yahshua Create?