"Jesus IS God!"?

[Frank4YAHWEH]

I don’t understand this— you said in your post that Thomas said “and my God” as “an outburst by Thomas, having seen something inexplicable and baffling. It is not unusual that a man cries out; “O’ my God!” when he sees something totally bizarre”

So now you are changing it that he is addressing both the Son and the Father, and it is not an outburst–

You really do seem confused.

No, it is you that is confused because, you do not take the time to observe and study context and no doubt you did not care to visit any of the links that I have provided. No, I did not say this. Note that there is a “SOURCE” and that I did not hyperlink the word 'SOURCE". The word “SOURCE” is hyperlinked on my blog if you care to know who really said this (which I doubt) and you can take your silly argument up with them. Note also the “Webmaster’s Comment: …”. I am the webmaster of my blog. I believe all you care about is to argue your foolish and deceptive “Jesus IS God!” doctrine which your so called “New Testament” does not teach.

 

[JJ59]

Well, um, sorry Frank, but if you’re the one using their argument, and you’re the one who started the thread, I think you should be able to defend that argument.

Just my opinion.

God Bless

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Well, um, sorry Frank, but if you’re the one using their argument, and you’re the one who started the thread, I think you should be able to defend that argument.

Just my opinion.

God Bless

I am defending my argument! Would you also suggest that I also not use Scriptural references made by someone else in defence of my arguments? Do you not also use arguments taught to you by your so called “Holy Roman Catholic Church” in defence of your arguments?

 

[ralphinal]

I feel like I need to point out a little fact.

A mediator is someone who brokers a treaty. It is not someone who carries messages. that is an intermediary. Jesus is a mediator. He brokered a treaty between God and Man. Now, how did he do that?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I do not work hard to try and divide Yahweh our Heavenly Father and Creator. It seems that you have divided YOUR “God” into three. Nowhere in Scripture is it taught “God has revealed himself in all three distinct persons undivided in his Triune God head.”

Elohim - Singual Or Plural?

To Believe “Jesus IS God!” Is To Be Deceived!

Did Yahshua Create?

Maybe you could find out what the doctrine of the Trinity is, before rejecting it. A lot of silliness & trouble would be avoided, if only those who rejected this or that would take this rather obvious step. BTW - do you think your objection is new ? It’s not - it’s been collecting its pension for centuries.​

 

[JJ59]

Of course I use Catholic arguments. But once someone argues against it, I don’t say “No, I did not say this.” and then show that the argument isn’t mine, it’s the Church’s.

Regardless of whose argument it is, you should still be upholding it if you use it. In your other post there you said that it was from a different source, etc. and then said that the Trinity was deceptive.

I could be wrong (and I often am ) but it seems like you’re just trying to get out of the argument you quoted by pointing out that it’s from a different source. If that’s not the message you were trying to give, please tell me what you were trying to say. Thanks!

Now anyway, I’m still wondering why Jesus would remain silent after Thomas clearly violated Exodus 20:7?

God Bless

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Maybe you could find out what the doctrine of the Trinity is, before rejecting it. A lot of silliness & trouble would be avoided, if only those who rejected this or that would take this rather obvious step. BTW - do you think your objection is new ? It’s not - it’s been collecting its pension for centuries.​

There are diverse doctrines of the so called “Holy Trinity” and I am quite familir with all of them. Maybe you could find out what I know before jumping to conclusions.

Trinity Links

 

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Of course I use Catholic arguments. But once someone argues against it, I don’t say “No, I did not say this.” and then show that the argument isn’t mine, it’s the Church’s.

Regardless of whose argument it is, you should still be upholding it if you use it. In your other post there you said that it was from a different source, etc. and then said that the Trinity was deceptive.

I could be wrong (and I often am ) but it seems like you’re just trying to get out of the argument you quoted by pointing out that it’s from a different source. If that’s not the message you were trying to give, please tell me what you were trying to say. Thanks!

Now anyway, I’m still wondering why Jesus would remain silent after Thomas clearly violated Exodus 20:7?

God Bless

Yeah! Your wrong again as you OFTEN are!

Wrong again! Thomas did not violate Exodus 20:7!

 

[scooter469]

John 10:[30]** I and the Father are one." **

Here’s the real kicker:

John 17:[1] When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee,
[2] since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.
[3] And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
[4] I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do;
[5] and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

If Jesus was created and not God the Father’s eternal Word, how can Jesus have glory with the Father before the world was made?

John 17:[17] Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.

John 14:[6] Jesus said to him, "**I am **the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

Jesus says, “Thy Word is Truth.” and in another place He says “I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”

If the Father’s Word is Truth, and Jesus is the Truth, then logically it must be concluded that Jesus is the Father’s Word.

Amen.

 

[SHW]

You said "“Only someone who is both God and Man can mediate between us and God.” and I am in disagreement with this statement as I have aslo made known in my responce.
Nowhere in Scripture does it teach “Jesus is both God and Man.” The false and deceptive doctrine “Jesus IS God!” has lead many into believing diverse concepts of other false doctrines such as Holy Trinity, Oneness, Two Yahwehs (Dualism), and etc. Not once has Yahshua ever proclaimed to be “God”. Nowhere in the Scripture am I ever taught or asked to confess “Jesus IS God!” I am only taught and asked to confess in Scripture that Yahshua is the Messiah the son of the living Yahweh.

Only a person with a human body can die. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh so that He could die for our sins and reconcile us to God. The Word (only-begotten Son of God) could not come to earth and reconcile us to God as a Spirit. He had to become flesh first and then die for our sins so that we could be reconciled to God.

The **Lord **is one God:

Mark 12:29-30 “Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’This is the first commandment.”

Mark 16:14 Later He (JESUS) appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” 19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen."

The Lord is God. The Lord is one. Jesus is the Lord. Therefore, Jesus is God. Simple logic.

Romans 5:1 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”

2 Timothy 4:1 “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:”

1 Peter 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”

Matthew 7:21-23 ““Not everyone who says to Me (JESUS), ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

Jesus is Lord. Jesus judges on Judgment Day. Jesus is God. He is the second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

Romans 8:11 “But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.”

John 5:21 “For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.”

Both the Father and the Holy Spirit raise Jesus/Word from the dead.

1 John 2:22 “Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.”

1 John 4:2-3 “By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.”

2 John 1:7-8 “For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ (WORD) as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.”

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

Please take a course on logic and reasoning or else join a forum with persons who think as you do so that you will fit in and be content with your beliefs. We will not be changing ours. Scripture states that your thinking is that of the antichrist.

Jesus is my Lord and my God. His Father is also my God. The Holy Spirit is also my God. Jesus is the Word made flesh. John 1. Three persons, but only one God.

SHW

 

[planten]

People that use the phrase “Oh my God” as a (disrespectful) outburst always use the phrase first and then continue with what they mean. Thomas says “My Lord” first – making a declaration. “and my God” continues as a declaration and not a surprised outburst.

** The words of doubting Thomas “Oh my God.” are some words of surprise only and some exclamation of sudden great happiness. Thomas, a Jew, was praising The God by those words. It was not meant that he was calling Jesus as his god. Not at all. Why did not any of the other 10 say or call Jesus as their god? Why only Thomas.

That is how we read the words of the bibleNT and we expect the Catholics to think over it please. Our two pence.

**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Nowhere in Scripture is it taught that Kepha was “the Catholic church’s first Pope.” Kepha would object to anyone addressing him with that blasphemous religious Pa Pa title.

To Believe “Jesus IS God!” Is To Be Deceived!

Did Yahshua Create?

Iam sorry Frank for side tracking your interesting discussion. Tell you what, Lets not call Jesus by his name here, instead can we call him by the name the Prophets gave him before his birth? “EMMANUEL” GOD IS WITH US.

Mathew;1:21
She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, 10 because he will save his people from their sins."
22
All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
23
11 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel," which means "God is with us."

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Nowhere in Scripture is it taught that Kepha was “the Catholic church’s first Pope.” Kepha would object to anyone addressing him with that blasphemous religious Pa Pa title.

To Believe “Jesus IS God!” Is To Be Deceived!

Did Yahshua Create?

Never mind the Pope or Vicar title applied to the authority of Peter’s chair. I am amazed that you insist on calling Peter, “Kepha” the Aramaic name for Rock in referring to Peter and not his faith. You know by doing this, you shut down the argument protestants and non catholic use to describe Jesus was referring the rock to Peter’s faith, and not a name change from Simon bar Jona to “Kepha” = Rock = translated to Greek Peter.

Why is it blashepemy to give Kepha the title of Vicar of Christ, when Jesus is the one who established his authority on earth upon him? Are you a blasphemer when you call your male parent “Father” or “Papa”. Kepha is our holy spiritual “papa” (father) in our faith, where is the blasephemy in this title we give our paternal Father, or our spiritual Father?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The following is an excerpt from MY XANGA BLOG.

Did Thomas Call Yahshua “God”?

Explanations proposed:

1. Thomas was surprised when he saw the Lord in their midst. “My God!” was just an expression, a “statement of surprise.”
2. Thomas was actually addressing both the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ when he said, “My Lord and my God.”
3. It is not a teaching text (non-didactic text); actually Thomas made a mistake when he said, “My Lord and my God.”
4. Thomas could have been saying my master and judge. The word ‘theos’ is generic and has many meanings and can mean ‘judge’.

Webmaster’s Comment: It is my stance that Thomas exclaimed “My master (lord) AND my Almighty One (‘God’)!”. He said “my master ‘lord’]” giving reference to Yahshua as his master AND “my Almighty One (‘God’)” giving reference to Father Yahweh as his Almighty One.

Here is the entire text from the ‘New American Standard Bible’ John 20:27-28:

“Then he (Yahshua) said to Thomas, ‘Reach here your finger, and see my hands, and reach here your hand, and put it into my side; and be not unbelieving, but believing.’ Thomas answered and said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”

Please observe the mark of exclamation (!) at the end of the phrase. The King James Version does not use an exclamation mark.
Please notice there was no question asked in the entire narration. Hence, the text which reads “Thomas answered” is inaccurate.

The last phrase “My Lord and my God!” was not an answer but it was an outburst by Thomas, having seen something inexplicable and baffling. It is not unusual that a man cries out; “O’ my God!” when he sees something totally bizarre.

Gabriel of 12;

Frank, Frank, Thomas does not state anything before Jesus takes Thomas’s finger and hands to confirm his wounds, besides what the heck is this Jesus doing appearing time and time again in his deathly wounds if he was not divine?

Thomas reaction does not come with an outburst as you incorrectly interpret this scripture and your sources.

Thomas’s statement does not come until he sees and touches Jesus wounds, and then Jesus speaks to Thomas again do not be unbelieving but believe; after all this, now Thomas is believing, realizing he had doubted all this time, is what was pondering his mind, not an outburst, not logical here.

Then doubting Thomas makes his faith known to say to Jesus himself “MY Lord ANDMY GOD”. Thomas did not say "Oh, my Lord, or Oh, my god as this is termed in the english language, your analogy does not fit the grammar of the text, nor the idium of the century. Remember Thomas was there when the Jews tried to stone Jesus for blasephemy many times for making himself out to be God, including his trial with the High Priest, accused Jesus of blashephemy. Doubting Thomas now sees and feels with his own hands, and confesses his doubt no more, but makes an acclamation of faith to Jesus as "My Lord ANDMy God!

Now pay attention to Jesus response to Thomas faith; “Have you come to believe because you have seen me?” Jesus response would have been different if Thomas was going to take the Lords name in vain in front of him, instead Thomas directs his faith now to Jesus being His Lord and His God, anything else he would of been guilty of taking the Lords name in vain.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

** The words of doubting Thomas “Oh my God.” are some words of surprise only and some exclamation of sudden great happiness. Thomas, a Jew, was praising The God by those words. It was not meant that he was calling Jesus as his god. Not at all. Why did not any of the other 10 say or call Jesus as their god? Why only Thomas.

That is how we read the words of the bibleNT and we expect the Catholics to think over it please. Our two pence.

**

Gabriel of 12:

IF your interpretation of Thomas words was an expression “Oh, my god” then Jesus or any Jew would have condemned Thomas for taking the Lords name in vain. Reread the text very slowly, and you will see a Doubting Thomas gain his faith in his Lord and God.

Why Thomas because he doubted and stated he will only believe in the resurrection if he touched the wounds of Jesus himself and then he would believe.The others did reference Jesus as God; John in his Gospel John 1:1-5,14, Mathew 1:23, Peter in Mathew’s Gospel 16:15, etc.

Do you also doubt? What would you do if Jesus appeared to you showing your doubting faith his wounds? Who knows he may appear to you tonight

How do you expect to read the Scriptures of God, if you dont believe in his Holy Spirit to reveal God’s teachings to you? Stop doubting and take a leap of faith, and maybe God will open your eyes to see the mysteries of God taken place in his Holy Word. Just ask the Holy Spirit for guidance here.

Praying for you; Peace be with you

 

[tony_forte]

:hello,there is a variety of scripture that proves that God is a trinity.I maynot quote them all to you this very moment but Isaiah 9:6 is one such verse.In the old testament YHWH says that he gave his glory to no one,and in the new testament we read that jesus says Father glorify the Son, the Son glorify the Father.or how about the first letter of saint John 5;7 …the Father the Word and the Holy Spirit…these three are one.Jesus asked the pharisees what they thought about the christ,He quoted the Psalm of David,The Lord said unto my Lord…There are many stories in the new testament that say people fell at the feet of Jesus and worshiped him.In the old testament YHWH commands that the jews are to worship no one but the almighty God.The list goes on and mabey I can give you lots of bible verses that prove that Yeshua is God the next time.Here is some Jewish testamonies,there are now many messianic jews in the world today,they admit that the trinity doctrine was not easy to believe.I have met some messianic jews and also read some of there literature,and they confess that yeshua hamaschiac(jesus the messiah in hebrew) is the almighty God.I hope and pray that we read the scripture and see for ourselves that there is only one God in the persons of the Father, Son,and Holy Ghost.amen

 

[planten]

Gabriel of 12:

IF your interpretation of Thomas words was an expression “Oh, my god” then Jesus or any Jew would have condemned Thomas for taking the Lords name in vain. Reread the text very slowly, and you will see a Doubting Thomas gain his faith in his Lord and God.

Why Thomas because he doubted and stated he will only believe in the resurrection if he touched the wounds of Jesus himself and then he would believe.The others did reference Jesus as God; John in his Gospel John 1:1-5,14, Mathew 1:23, Peter in Mathew’s Gospel 16:15, etc.

Do you also doubt? What would you do if Jesus appeared to you showing your doubting faith his wounds? Who knows he may appear to you tonight

How do you expect to read the Scriptures of God, if you dont believe in his Holy Spirit to reveal God’s teachings to you? Stop doubting and take a leap of faith, and maybe God will open your eyes to see the mysteries of God taken place in his Holy Word. Just ask the Holy Spirit for guidance here.

Praying for you; Peace be with you

**Algabriel, you have tried to explain but it is not convincing. Do you believe that Thomas could not recognise Jesus? That he could not believe it was Jesus? Far from it. You are trying to impose that Thomas would not believe that it was Jesus until he saw the wounds. that is ridiculous. Did any other apostle not recognise Jesus until they saw the wounds? No.

The wounds could not be any sign of Jesus being God. If there were no wounds then it could be said to be a sign for every one. That could be a sign of God. But the wounds were the same. The body was the same. the man was the same. the soul was the same. There was nothing new. So we believe that the man had not come back from the dead. he had just recovered from his swoon.

You believe that Jesus died and then got up. I believe that he had not died at all. Resurrection is a special word which has been invented for some special purpose. It is otherwise written that Jesus had “Risen”… From “Risen” you take the meaning of resurrection? How come? It would be too much simplicity to assume things like that.**

 

[SHW]

You believe that Jesus died and then got up. I believe that he had not died at all. Resurrection is a special word which has been invented for some special purpose. It is otherwise written that Jesus had “Risen”… From “Risen” you take the meaning of resurrection? How come? It would be too much simplicity to assume things like that.

John 11:51 “Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,”

Mark 15:43-45 “Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 44 Pilate marveled that He (Jesus) was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time. 45 So when he found out from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph.”

Jesus definitely died on the cross and was then buried.

If Jesus died as stated in Scripture, then to be alive again, He would have to be resurrected from the dead.

Acts 2:29-32 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.”

Scripture states that Jesus was resurrected. “Jesus raised up” means that He was resurrected from the dead. The word “Resurrection” is used to show that Jesus is no longer dead in His grave but alive out of the grave. He later ascended (went up) into heaven to sit at the right hand of His Father. (Acts 1:9-11)

1 Peter 1:3-5 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

Acts 24:15 “I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”

All of our dead bodies will be resurrected from the dead on Judgment Day.

Pax,
SHW

 

[JJ59]

Yeah! Your wrong again as you OFTEN are!

Wrong again! Thomas did not violate Exodus 20:7!

Thanks for telling me when I’m wrong, Frank. No really, I appreciate it, no sarcasm.

Can you please elaborate and tell me why Thomas did not violate Exodus 20:7?

 

[look3467]

God the Father = creator of all there is
God the Son = Jesus = creator of the new life by rebirth
God the Holy Spirit = the Spirit of Christ omnipresent in all of us.

To fully understand these three we must first understand their administrative purposes.

God the Father created all there is, heaven, earth, animals and humanity.
The creation came with consequences and that being separation, or in other words, spiritual death.
Casting out of Adam and Eve is but an understandable story to show why we were alienated from God due to knowledge, making us as like gods and the consequences of it.

God knew and understood all of it and made provisions for our escape, or salvation, if you will.

This verse gives us a clue: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the **same in hope, **

Enter: God the Son, in the flesh: “Emanuel” God with us, as the tree of life given to mankind by which when they reach for its fruit will live forever.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, **and live for ever: **

Yes, Jesus son of man by flesh and Son of God by Spirit is the tree of life, granted us via His sacrifice that we should reach out and eat of the fruit of that tree.

God the Holy Spirit, comforter, friend and counselor, works in each one of our hearts to become victorious over the elements of this world.

Hence, there is only one God but in different administrations.

1. Creator with laws up to Moses and continuance of the physical life
2. Savior/creator payer of our depth to recreation of the new creatures.
3. Stirrer of the souls’ heart to transformation via a rebirth.

So, if anyone wants to believe other than what I just explained, are certainly in their rights to do so, for it is given to us as gods to choose, without penalty of eternal separation.

All that is in the world is temporary, sin, our works and the time in history we pertain to.
We should therefore, regardless of time, make the best of it to achieve the best for each other in love as given to us by Jesus Himself.

Blessing, AJ