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terryobrien80
Guest
Can anyone give me good examples of Jesus quoting the Deutero Canonicals or referring to them?
- Status
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HamtramckSteve
Guest
I can’t get to the following page from my work computer for some reason, but I think you’ll find what you’re looking for here:
scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
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ziapueblo
Guest
Check out this article:
www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/1.2/marapril_story2.html
www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/1.2/marapril_story2.html
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beeliner
Guest
I gave one on another thread a couple of days ago. I’m sure there are others; however, note that very few references to the OT in the NT are direct quotes. Most of them would more properly be called allusions, and sometimes the ‘jist’ of the allusion is rather far removed from the original.
In any case, these words of Christ from Matthew…
…would seem to be based on this verse from Wisdom of Solomon:
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Old_Scholar
Guest
These references are all jokes. They do not refer to the same thing as what is written in the New Testament.
There is no valid reference in the NT from the Apocrypha. If so, please give it and do not play games with similar words…
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/waffen/violent-smiley-026.gif
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thistle
Guest
DEUTEROCANONICALS REFERENCED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.
Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
Luke 13:29 - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.
Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.
Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.
John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.
John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.
John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.
John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.
John 15:6 - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
Acts 1:15 - Luke’s reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter’s and Paul’s statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.
Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul’s teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God’s existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul’s question, “who has known the mind of the Lord?” references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many “gods” but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul’s description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul’s prayer for a “spirit of wisdom” follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul’s description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.
2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul’s description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.
Heb. 4:12 - Paul’s description of God’s word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.
Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 6:18, 7:1-42.
Heb. 12:12 - the description “drooping hands” and “weak knees” comes from Sirach 25:23.
James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.
James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
James 3:13 - James’ instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.
James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.
James 5:6 - condemning and killing the “righteous man” follows Wisdom 2:10-20.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.
2 Peter 2:7 - God’s rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.
Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.
Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God’s Word in Wisdom 18:16.
Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.
Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.
Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.
Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
Luke 13:29 - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.
Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.
Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.
John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.
John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.
John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.
John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.
John 15:6 - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
Acts 1:15 - Luke’s reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter’s and Paul’s statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.
Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul’s teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God’s existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul’s question, “who has known the mind of the Lord?” references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many “gods” but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul’s description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul’s prayer for a “spirit of wisdom” follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul’s description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.
2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul’s description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.
Heb. 4:12 - Paul’s description of God’s word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.
Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 6:18, 7:1-42.
Heb. 12:12 - the description “drooping hands” and “weak knees” comes from Sirach 25:23.
James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.
James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
James 3:13 - James’ instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.
James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.
James 5:6 - condemning and killing the “righteous man” follows Wisdom 2:10-20.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.
2 Peter 2:7 - God’s rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.
Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.
Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God’s Word in Wisdom 18:16.
Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.
Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.
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thistle
Guest
continued…
Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.
Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.
Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.
Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 19:1 - the cry “Hallelujah” at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.
Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.
Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.
Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.
Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.
Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.
Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.
Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 19:1 - the cry “Hallelujah” at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.
Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.
Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.
Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.
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Tietjen
Guest
I found them to be very good examples. Perhaps you are bias and when faced with truth, which disputes your personal beliefs, you choose to dismiss truth. Do not feel alone however. I have found many protestants suffer from the same problem. God bless.
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Mickddp
Guest
“If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.”
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beeliner
Guest
You are employing the same error of logic as the so-called ‘creationists’ - starting with the conclusion - that there cannot possibly be such references because most Protestant Bibles do not include them - and then ignoring all of the evidence to the contrary.
James and Hebrews are LOADED with references to the deuterocanonical books, they were an integral part of the LXX, the scripture that Christ and the NT writers mainly used (as evidenced from the high percentage of LXX references in the NT), so there is no reason why they would not have been referred to.
Also, when these books were finally excluded from the Jewish canon, long after most of the NT writers were dead, it was done purely on the basis on date, not content. They were simply not considered ancient enough to be included. By that time, Judaism and Christianity had diverged, and Christians continued to use the entire LXX except for some obscure pseudepigrapha.
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ziapueblo
Guest
If quotation equals canonicity then you need to take these books out of the protocanonical Old Testament: Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum. Not one of these Old Testament books is ever quoted or alluded to by Christ or the Apostles in the New Testament.
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ziapueblo
Guest
The feast of the dedication at Jerusalem in the Gospel of St. John 10:22-36. This feast day is only recorded in 1 and 2 Maccabees. Jesus makes a connection; John 10:34-36 with 1 Maccabees 4:36-59 and 2 Maccabees 10:1-8. This is the same type of connection that Jesus was making with;
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Old_Scholar
Guest
I repeat, all the references that were listed are, in most part, just jokes. Read the account of Herod slaying all those children under 2 years of age in Matthew 2:16 and then read Wisdom 11:7 and you will find it is not even talking about the same thing. I have given a few more verses to put it in context.
It is completely different and if one takes the time to look up all the others, one will find they are all the same. It’s just that someone looked for verses that had the same words but they do not even pertain to the same subject; much less refer to anything in the NT.
Wisdom 11:4 When they were thirsty, they called upon thee, and water was given them out of the flinty rock, and their thirst was quenched out of the hard stone.
Wisdom 11:5 For by what things their enemies were punished, by the same they in their need were benefited.
Wisdom 11:6 For instead of of a perpetual running river troubled with foul blood,
Wisdom 11:7 For a manifest reproof of that commandment, whereby the infants were slain, thou gavest unto them abundance of water by a means which they hoped not for:
Wisdom 11:8 Declaring by that thirst then how thou hadst punished their adversaries.
It’s strange that even a die-hard apocryphal book supporter could make the claim that this has anything to do with Herod killing the children in order to kill Jesus. Too funny to even consider…
I do not believe you will find a single quote from the NT that parallels any of the apocrypha books that isn’t also found in the Old Testament.
For those who don’t know, some of the reasons the apocrypha books were not included in the canon are:
“The Church, indeed, reads them, but does not receive them among the canonical books, only reading them for edification of the people and not for confirmation of ecclessiastical doctrine.”
(book 3, page 18. CF. John T. Christian, op. cit., p. 183)
That’s why they were considered deutero-canonical for so many years until the RCC considered them fully canonical in response to the Reformation Movement.
This is just another case of believing what you have been told and not checking the actual history for yourselves…
It is completely different and if one takes the time to look up all the others, one will find they are all the same. It’s just that someone looked for verses that had the same words but they do not even pertain to the same subject; much less refer to anything in the NT.
Wisdom 11:4 When they were thirsty, they called upon thee, and water was given them out of the flinty rock, and their thirst was quenched out of the hard stone.
Wisdom 11:5 For by what things their enemies were punished, by the same they in their need were benefited.
Wisdom 11:6 For instead of of a perpetual running river troubled with foul blood,
Wisdom 11:7 For a manifest reproof of that commandment, whereby the infants were slain, thou gavest unto them abundance of water by a means which they hoped not for:
Wisdom 11:8 Declaring by that thirst then how thou hadst punished their adversaries.
It’s strange that even a die-hard apocryphal book supporter could make the claim that this has anything to do with Herod killing the children in order to kill Jesus. Too funny to even consider…
I do not believe you will find a single quote from the NT that parallels any of the apocrypha books that isn’t also found in the Old Testament.
For those who don’t know, some of the reasons the apocrypha books were not included in the canon are:
- The Lord Jesus Christ never recognized them or quoted from them.
- The apostles and early Christian scholars rejected them as being uninspired.
- Both external and internal evidence prove them to be the uninspired works of men.
- They are never mentioned in the NT.
- They are not included in the Massoretic text of the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint, or in the jewish Talmud.
- None of them lay claim to inspiration.
- They teach things at variance with the regular canonical books, i.e., praying to the dead in *II Maccabees *12:43-44, and incantations and augury in Tobit 6:1-8.
“The Church, indeed, reads them, but does not receive them among the canonical books, only reading them for edification of the people and not for confirmation of ecclessiastical doctrine.”
(book 3, page 18. CF. John T. Christian, op. cit., p. 183)
That’s why they were considered deutero-canonical for so many years until the RCC considered them fully canonical in response to the Reformation Movement.
This is just another case of believing what you have been told and not checking the actual history for yourselves…
po18guy
Well-known member
OS, by whose authority do you proclaim the books apocryphal? Every book in your bible was vetted by the same church, so are you cherrypicking? Remember, there is a pit in every cherry you pick.
Methinks thou dost Protest too much.
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HamtramckSteve
Guest
Maybe we’re talking about other “apocryphal” books here. The 7 books rejected by protestants are most certainly in the Septuagint.
There are other noncanonical books that can also be referred to as apocrypha.
As for whether or not Jews after Jesus’s time recognized certain books as canonical is besides the point for me. I can’t separate their rejection of the Septuagint from their overt rejection of Christ.
po18guy
Well-known member
His bible is even more incomplete that ours! His opinions are based on limited exposure to, or a lack of faith in the pre-Luther bible. Thus, how can his opinions have any weight at all in a Catholic forum? We can pray for him, that’s what we can do.
Christ’s peace.
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beeliner
Guest
Most of these assertions are simply false.
- Several counter-examples have already been given. Regarding the rest, nor did He recognize or quote from many of the proto-canonical books.
- Nonsense. They remained an integral part of the Christian LXX far beyond their exclusion from the Jewish canon as being too recent.
- If you mean that many of the stories in them are probably fictitious, are at least partially so, that is very likely true, but true also of several of the proto-canonical books, such as Job and Daniel. If the deuterocanonicals had been admitted to the Jewish canon, it undoubtedly would have been as “Writings” (Ketuvim).
- Dozens of counter-examples have been listed. That you instantly reject them all severely compromises your credibility.
- I’m not sure you meant to say this. They were certainly included in the LXX, as an integral part, not separated from the proto-canonical books in any way that I am aware of.
- Nor do most of the protocanonical books, but what is the point? Any book at all can make such a claim, and the ‘esoterica’ section of any big bookstore contains many such books of recent origin.
- There are far more contradictions between the books of the protocanon than between the protocanon and the deuterocanon.
Jerome was correct in that their canonicity had not been determined at that time; that does not alter the fact that most of your assertions are simply wrong.
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ziapueblo
Guest
Jesus and his Apostles never quoted from or even alluded to the Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum.
Almost 90% of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament come from the Septuagint. The Septuagint holds the 7 Deterocanonical Books. Gleason Archer and G.C. Chirichigno, * Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament: A Complete Survey*. (Chicago, IL; Moody Press, 1983). xxv-xxxii. Both are Protestant authors.
Show your sources.
I’ve listed above 11 books that are not mentioned, quoted from, or even alluded to in the New Testament. If quotation equaled canonicity then our Bible would be have quite a few more books.
The Deuterocanonical Books are part of the Septuagint.
Absurd claim. In 1 Corinthians 7:40 St. Paul says he thinks that he has the Spirit of God.
In 2 Maccabees, Judas hoped that these men who died fighting for the cause of God and religion, might find mercy: either because they might be excused from mortal sin by ignorance; or might have repented of their sin, at least at their death.
St. Jerome offered this opinion, but unlike Luther, he humbly submitted his private judgment to the authority of the Church and included these books in his translation the Vulgate.
St. Jerome defended other Deuterocanonical Books:
“What sin have I committed if i follow the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating (in my preface to the book of Daniel) the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susannah (Dan. 13), the Song of the Three Children (Dan. 3:29-68, RSV-CE), and the story of Bel and the Dragon (Dan. 14), which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they are wont to make against us. If I did not reply to their views in my preface, in the interest of brevity, lest it seems that I was composing not a preface, but a book, I believe I added promptly the remark, for I said, This is not the time to descuss such matters” (Against Rufinius 11:33).
History lesson:
Read above
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
Sorry, but you are in error. My Bible had absolutely nothing at all to do with the Roman Catholic Church. They didn’t write it, they didn’t canonize it and they certainly didn’t approve it.
And I am not the one that declared them apocryphal and after some time, deutero-canonical. The early church did that. Didn’t you read what Jerome had to say about them? Jerome is the one who first called them apocryphal. That was the prevailing attitude of those days. Very few churches were promoting those books.
The word “apocrypha” comes from Greek apokryptein, “to hide away”), in biblical literature, works outside an accepted canon of scripture. The history of the term’s usage indicates that it referred to a body of esoteric writings that were at first prized, later tolerated, and finally excluded. In its broadest sense apocrypha has come to mean any writings of dubious authority.
If you agree, as most Christians do, that the Old Testament is a book inspired by God Himself and protected throughout time by Him, why would He keep hidden, or apocryphal, the very words which were presumably to instruct the Old Testament Jewish Congregation? Obviously the answer would be that He did not! He wouldn’t do this. The Jewish Canon does not contain the Apocrypha. We can’t say that this is insignificant because as we know it was to the Jews that the Old Covenant books were entrusted. See Romans 3:1-2. As I stated previously, there is no evidence that Jesus ever used these books, nor did the apostles, and the Jewish leadership or congregation ever use it.
I know that you have always been taught such by the RCC, but why don’t you do as the Scriptures say, and test what you have been told? Study the history of the Bible, apart from what the RCC has taught you. You will be very surprised…
T
Tietjen
Guest
First, I cannot believe that you can be so ignorant on this subject and at the same time willing to puff your chest out and take on the illusion of actually knowing what you are speaking of. I say that not to insult, but as simple fact. If you hadn’t included the paragraph that I quoted above, I could simply conclude that you were taught incorrectly. However, by making the statement above, you show yourself to simply be a liar because any elementary school child can easily research that statement and know the truth. You, as an adult, cannot be so careless as have made this statement without at least checking into it first. We have SOOOOO many pre-reformation Bibles in existence, and guess what my friend. They contain the 7 books which Luther later removed. You either need to become a better researcher or a better liar, because either way you have now completely disqualified yourself as having any type of knowledge on this subject. God bless.
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