Could you please point that what is my misunderstanding? The situation is very simple: Jesus cannot have two natures which are conflicting.That’s the missing link for you. You misunderstand that is IS possible for the second person of the Trinity to take on two natures at the same time.
I don’t really have time to read Aquinas. I wish that one Catholic person in here could help out.That is part of our Catholic Doctrine, and if you want a full explanation of the Catholic understanding, I suggest you read Aquinas.
There is no mystery here instead we are dealing with a concept which is logically impossible. It is in fact very easy to understand the problem.We can use logic to understand each other in many things. We cannot use logic (human reason), however, to attain something which is unattainable by human logic, such as spiritual mysteries. Therefore, I suggest you tackle Catholic Doctrines which are, in fact, within the realm of human reason alone, otherwise you’ll just be frustrated by being unable to comprehend spiritual mysteries.
This is not a good example since we are dealing with a situation that a person has two natures. A human being has a soul, a body and one nature. This union allow a person to suffer. A person without a soul cannot suffer.Bahman,
You have a soul do you not?
When your body suffers your soul is unharmed,
Why? Because your body is flesh and your soul is spirit.
Same with Jesus, his body is flesh, his soul is spirit along with His divinity which is also Spirit.
You feel pain in the body, not in the soul.
Jesus felt pain in the body, while His divinity/ soul were unharmed.
Our LORD indeed had a human soul. He was a human being, as well as a divine person.This is not a good example since we are dealing with a situation that a person has two natures. A human being has a soul, a body and one nature. This union allow a person to suffer. A person without a soul cannot suffer.
Not really accurate. We are **one being; **our souls indeed suffer with our bodies.Bahman,
You have a soul do you not?
When your body suffers your soul is unharmed,
Why? Because your body is flesh and your soul is spirit.
Same with Jesus, his body is flesh, his soul is spirit along with His divinity which is also Spirit.
You feel pain in the body, not in the soul.
Jesus felt pain in the body, while His divinity/ soul were unharmed.
There is no logical impossibility.So you believe on something which is logically impossible.
He had a human body and a human soul. He could feel pain, suffer evil, both physically and emotionally. He could feel anxiety over what was to come, his obedience to the Father was tested. Of course he could suffer.Your answer didn’t really help because you didn’t provide a solid answer to whether he as a person could suffer or not.
There is no logical impossibility. Since you allege that there is, please show us why, as nothing you’be posted so far serves as a good argument.Could you please point that what is my misunderstanding? The situation is very simple: Jesus cannot have two natures which are conflicting.
I don’t really have time to read Aquinas. I wish that one Catholic person in here could help out.
There is no mystery here instead we are dealing with a concept which is logically impossible. It is in fact very easy to understand the problem.
I don’t know if you know this but asphyxiation is I would say suffering. With all due respect I’m a little confused about what’s your philosophy is. Much of what you say doesn’t really make any sense because you’re making a claim without providing evidence for itJesus is God. God is infinite. We are finite. So we cannot possibly make Jesus to suffer.
+1.I don’t know if you know this but asphyxiation is I would say suffering.
You are relying entirely upon this premise that human and divine natures conflict. You are incorrect. Please prove this premise before continuing to cite it as fact.The situation is very simple: Jesus cannot have two natures which are conflicting.
So Jesus can suffer because he is human an cannot suffer because he is God. This is logically impossible.There is no logical impossibility.
Logic says a person is an individual being
Nature is predicated of an individual, not the other way around
True: Aristotle is a human (individual predicated by nature)
False: a human is Aristotle (false because there are many humans that are not the individual Aristotle)
Human is a nature; Divine is a nature.
Jesus (individual) is human (nature predicated of an individual)
Jesus (individual) is God (nature predicated of an individual)
The situation is very simple and I provided an argument for it, please read previous comment.As far as I know, I have never seen any logical conclusion stating that an individual cannot have more than one nature - other than your assertion, which is just an assertion, not a logical derivation, and not true…
But Jesus has divine nature as well which means he could not suffer so we are dealing with a contradiction.He had a human body and a human soul. He could feel pain, suffer evil, both physically and emotionally. He could feel anxiety over what was to come, his obedience to the Father was tested. Of course he could suffer.
It makes a good hypothetical question, I suppose, but we already have an example to look at; the question was answered. And what more, there’s no contradiction.
There is a logical impossibility: Jesus has two natures, namely human and divine, which human nature allows suffering and divine nature which does not allow suffering.There is no logical impossibility. Since you allege that there is, please show us why, as nothing you’be posted so far serves as a good argument.
I wondering why my arguments are confusing for you. The problem is very simple:I don’t know if you know this but asphyxiation is I would say suffering. With all due respect I’m a little confused about what’s your philosophy is. Much of what you say doesn’t really make any sense because you’re making a claim without providing evidence for it
The union of human and divine natures are conflicting because human nature does allow suffering whereas divine nature does not allow suffering hence the union is logically impossible.You are relying entirely upon this premise that human and divine natures conflict. You are incorrect. Please prove this premise before continuing to cite it as fact.
We have an event (the event of Jesus) where there are two natures;So Jesus can suffer because he is human an cannot suffer because he is God. This is logically impossible.
The situation is very simple and I provided an argument for it, please read previous comment.
Your wording of “does allow” and “does not allow” is deceiving. Rather, I would say that a person with a human nature can suffer, whereas a person with a divine nature cannot.The union of human and divine natures are conflicting because human nature does allow suffering whereas divine nature does not allow suffering hence the union is logically impossible.
I already provide my argument. Divine and human nature are mutually exclusive when we consider the ability of suffering. The person with two nature cannot be in a state which suffer and don’t suffer at the same time.We have an event (the event of Jesus) where there are two natures;
It is up to you to provide some “proof” that it is impossible. We see it, so it is possible; it is up to you to prove that we are not seeing clearly.
The fact that many people are Catholic doesn’t grant anything. They could be all wrong unless they think thoroughly.Otherwise, 1 and 1/2 billion people plus all those Catholics before us since Peter, Paul, James, and John, see what you say is impossible.
So you must prove your claim, we do not have to prove what we experience if there is no counter proof of experience being misinterpreted.
Having divine and human nature is similar to example of your cat.As for logical impossibility: Only contraries are impossible simultaneously. Such as this impossibility: “This cat is all black and this cat is all white” This is what a contrary looks like, and is a logical impossibility. But nothing about Human Nature is contrary to Divine Nature, therefore the two can be simultaneously attributed to one person, if that person has both natures, which Jesus does have. Since Divine Nature is not material (not is space, not in time), it does not interfere with the physical material aspect of the Human Nature. Since the Divine Nature is not moved, it does not suffer change when the Human Nature is created, but instead inspires the Human Nature.
So he was not aware of the conflict in having two natures. How he could be aware?If you look at your own understanding, when you think about your “person”, you will see a kind of difference between knowing yourself and knowing.
The soul, the mind, knows things, knows truth, knows individual things, but there is something called “I” “I am”, “I know”, “I etc.”
My soul is the place of knowing, understanding. But my soul is not me ("not I "). My body is the place of experiment and learning to know, but my body is not me ("not I ")
Instead, I am. That is the person. That is “I”.
There is a strangeness to “I” that is real.
And that is what we say when we say Jesus is both Human and Divine.
Jesus knew this: “I have hands and feet, and reason, and a soul, and thoughts, and know things” He also knew, “I know eternity, and the Father, and I know Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Adam, Eve, the moment of Creation, and Love. I know that what I know, what I speak, comes into being.”
Jesus knows both those knowings in himself. He knows I AM completely about himself. He is the Person. And he knows these natures are his.
You cannot possibly suffer and don’t suffer at the same time. You either suffer or do not suffer.As far as s “person suffering”: We suffer and we do not suffer in the same person.
“I am John” - this knowing of myself has not suffered change, from the time I was five years old until now at 65 years, when I know “I am John”, I am knowing the same me, no suffering of change to my person. That is because the Human Person is outside of Time in his “self”, but in that same time, my body has grown taller, larger, stronger, weaker, and now is wearing out. But “I am John” does not suffer change of any kind, while my body suffers growth and decay, and I, John, will eventually have to leave my body behind until it is raised in the resurrection, like Jesus’ body. So, we suffer and we do not suffer simultaneously.
My wording is not deceiving. We are talking about a union between two natures hence we have to use “and” instead of “or”.Your wording of “does allow” and “does not allow” is deceiving. Rather, I would say that a person with a human nature can suffer, whereas a person with a divine nature cannot.
We are talking about a person with two conflicting natures. So he suffer and suffer not.In this light, a person with both human and divine natures could suffer in his human capacity, but not his divine capacity.
No, it doesn’t make sense. We are talking about union of two conflicting natures.Make sense? What objection do you have to that perspective?
Yes, Divine Nature is not Human Nature - they are infinitely “other” than each other.I already provide my argument. Divine and human nature are mutually exclusive when we consider the ability of suffering. The person with two nature cannot be in a state which suffer and don’t suffer at the same time.