Jesus' Resurrected Body: Superfluous? Functioning? Facade?

[vicwestlad]

Aloysium:

I will give it another try. This is something I’ve come up with, focussing on what I think you might be asking.

Sorry Aloysium, I’ve read your analogy over a few times and I’m not seeing your point, really, or even how Heaven and Earth is analagous to a computer and a post. Sorry, I’m just find it a bit confusing. Perhaps if you could shorten it a little I’ll take another look and try to figure out what you’re saying.

The question I had in the last post, though, concerned the fact that you said you agreed with TimothyH. Now TimothyH said point blank that Jesus needs his body and needs it functioning or he’ll die. So my question to you was this?

me:

My question, then, would be, How did he survive before he came to earth and got his human body?

 

[vicwestlad]

Mintaka:

Yes, of course Jesus has (glorified) blood, which is pumped through His (glorified) veins by His (glorified) heart, and which is filled with (glorified) oxygen by His (glorified) lungs.

It’s interesting, you know. You say that with such confidence as if you know this to be true but many of your Catholic colleagues disagree with you here, as they’ve done on this thread. Just wondering how you know you’re right about this and your colleagues are wrong?

Also, another question: If Jesus has this blood pumping through his heart, does he require the intake of oxygen, food, and water?

Could he exist without his human body?

Mintaka:

And yes, breathing glorified oxygen is probably a pleasure and bliss unmatched by any activity that our unglorified bodies can participate in (though of course the greatest bliss would be existing in the presence of God

Although, not sure how this can be a great pleasure to a god who was in a state of perfect bliss even before bodies were made. Not sure how you’d improve on perfect bliss.

Mintaka:

The point here is that God really really likes matter. He invented it, and He’s not going to pitch it into the trashbin of eternity. Human bodies are His masterpiece. We slashed the heck out of them in the Garden of Eden, but He was willing to die to repair them and make them what He always meant them to be. He’s not going to ditch them or us as superfluous. He has Big Plans, which we haven’t even been able to dream of.

Yeah, you’ll notice, though, that I’m not talking about our resurrected bodies but only Jesus and the use of his body

 

[vicwestlad]

thenobes:

I would like to offer you my thoughts on your questions.

Cool.

thenobes:

It is to remind the Father, in a temporal sense, of the passion He underwent for our sins. As an perpetual offering on our behalf as we repent of sin, for the forgiveness of the Father. Thus not superfluous.

I think that’s a good answer. However, you’re putting limits on the memory of the creator of everything who is perfect. Why would a perfect being need to be reminded of things?

thenobes:

Act as our true intercessor.

That brings up a couple of queries, then:

Why does he need to be existing in a human body in order to, I don’t know how to put this, talk to Yahweh or our behalf?

Second, not sure how to make sense of him acting as an intercessory to himself. He is God, right?

thenobes:

The existence of a living creature depends on a physical body and spiritual soul, which soul is the organizing principle of the body. In the case of a human, the soul contains the faculties of memory, intellect, and will.

Well that seems to be scientifically inaccurate since memory and intellect are stored in the cells of the brain. That’s why, brain injuries can cause catastrophic memory loss. Where do the memories go?

thenobes:

After Christ was resurrected, He no longer had to retain the appearance of an unglorified body, that is, he did not have to retain the appearance of one not in intimate contact with God. He is now able to display His full Glory

Ok

thenobes:

Thus Christ’s resurrected body, due to its combination with Christ’s human soul, is alive and is capable of anything any human body is capable of.

Being capable of something and needing to do it are too different things. But my question was fairly specific. Does Jesus have lungs and, if so, does he breath? Does he need to breath?

thenobes:

I hope this has answered your questions.

Well it’s not a bad start.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Well not if they’re not needed and provide no function. Here’s a question. Would Jesus have veins in his hands and wrists do you think?

IMO I would think Jesus has his veins, yes.

And, really, THG, if Jesus’ heart isn’t even beating and he isn’t even breathing, I’m not sure in what sense you can call him human.

Jesus’ human and divine nature aside, the resurrected Christ has a glorified body that isn’t anything like our bodies that we have here on earth now. It seems weird to fathom and probably doesn’t seem very human-like, but Jesus doesn’t live on earth He lives in Heaven, a spiritual state and/or place. At the resurrection of the dead, all humans will be reunited with their corporal bodies and the humans’ bodies who are saved, will be made perfect (glorified). When that happens, the world as we know it will be be very different there’s no denying that, alien-like even perhaps, but the souls of humans who once lived being resurrected and reunited with their bodies will still be humans, otherwise what would you consider calling them? And would the label even matter?

Again, the body seems pretty much superfluous as I intimated in the OP, since he’s not really even using it. What do you think about that?

Also, doesn’t the presence of all these organs that serve no purpose and do nothing mean it’s more or less a facade?

I don’t think anyone is certain that the organs serve no purpose if they exist and aren’t being used, but I would assume since we had them on this earth that they would exist for the sheer fact that they are apart of our corporal bodies. I wouldn’t call it superfluous or a facade, I’d call it being in a perfected and glorified state.

Someone can own a muscle car with 600 horsepower but the car can still run without using all 600 HP on the regular, public streets and the car isn’t a facade. It’s still a muscle car with 600 HP but it just isn’t using all 600 HP because it doesn’t need to in order to function as a normal car.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

On Star Trek they beam into places with the transporter. I’m sure that Jesus being God can do things with His glorified body that seem impossible to us.

Jesus ate fish with the apostles.

Now did Jesus’ glorified body require food? I’d say no. People would ask: how could this be? It would BE because glorified bodies are different than physical bodies.

You can TOUCH a glorified body like Jesus told Thomas.

The glorified body is like what Jesus’ body was like at the Transfiguration.

And heaven is different than down here on Earth. You don’t see Lions laying down with lambs down here do you? They can DO THAT in Heaven!

I don’t have a problem believing these things–we don’t even know how to make one living cell and look how the physical body functions–look at the universe and know that God created all of that out of nothing!

I don’t understand HOW that can be–but I can understand that there is a God who can easily do that–and in Heaven we will even know HOW all these things were possible!

The GLORIFIED body should give us all hope–and just think–Jesus ascended into Heaven and brought HUMANITY into the Trinity!

And Mary who is human just like the rest of us ALSO has a glorified body in Heaven!

She shows what all of us will have one day! The GLORIFIED body is REAL! Thanks be to God!

 

[Kliska]

If we tell you of earthly things and you don’t believe, why would you believe us on Heavenly things? Where is your heart, 'Lad? Do you even believe Jesus existed on this earth? Do you believe He was crucified for your sins? That He resurrected?

If not, why do you quibble with Heavenly matters with believers of something that you deny? Are you willing to change your mind and heart about God?

I wasn’t there so I wouldn’t know if it was empty. An empty tomb is not the point of this thread.

The empty tomb is the point of everything. You keep saying that we are on an apologetics forum. Apologetics is defending the Fatih. Arguing about the particulars of Jesus’ Heavenly body isn’t exactly an apologetics topic. Now, if you are asking why we have hope, yes, that is a part of it, for He raised bodily proving He is God, and fulfilling all requirements of the sacrificial system that He fulfilled with His life, death, resurrection, and ascension. We believe that very soon we will be meeting Him face-to-face and we will share in His knowledge.

If you truly wanted knowledge you’d love the Lord, for He is Wisdom incarnate. Trust Him and find out for yourself.

It’s only a false dilemma if there’s another option. I say either his human body is functioning, as in lungs breathing, heart beating, veins circulating blood, or it’s not. What’s the third option?

That wasn’t the two choices you put forth; you said superfluous or facade. I’ve given plenty of biblical answers that show it is neither. There are far more than two or even three possibilities, as I’ve already demonstrated.

I’m familiar with the gospels, thank you.

Perhaps, but that’s neither here nor there. I gave you a straightforward example of how and when and where and why Jesus used His functioning physical body post-resurrection, pre-second coming.

First, not quite sure what you mean by our “plane of existence”. Do you mean the physical universe?

We only live and operate in so many dimensions, yes? Heaven is neither bound nor contained by those severely limited dimensions.

Second, since he uses it when he’s in our “plane of existence”, what does he do with it when it’s not in or “plane of existence”?

I imagine He does whatever He wants with it.

Actually I haven’t given any specific definitions of a human body

You most certainly did.

but any one gave would pretty much have to include functioning lungs, heart, etc. Do you know of any human bodies that don’t require the intake of oxygen and water? I don’t think I’m exactly out on a limb here.

Dogs require intake of O2 and H2O, that doesn’t make them human. You seem to be trying to form a deductive argument, but your premises are all out of whack. For example, a dead body is a human body, yes? You are now possessed of a regular ol’ human body, luckily it isn’t a dead human body, someday your body will be dead. Your present functioning is as different from your dead body’s functioning as a glorified body’s functioning compared to your regular body currently. All 3 are still human bodies.

I’m thrilled to imagine my glorified body, I can’t wait.

I’m familiar with Christian theology thanks.

It doesn’t seem so.

So tell me, does Jesus breath? What do you think?

He does if He wants to.

 

[Usagi]

Yeah, you’ll notice, though, that I’m not talking about our resurrected bodies but only Jesus and the use of his body

Jesus’ resurrected body is the sign of what ours will be like, so the two aren’t unconnected.

I will attempt to answer your questions. Please understand, though, that the reason many of us have demurred or disagreed with each other on the details is that we don’t actually know the details for sure – no one has had the opportunity to x-ray a glorified body, given that we know of only one that has physically walked the earth and that was long ago. This is largely speculation on our part, so it’s hardly fair of you to call us to account for what “our colleagues” have speculated.

First, Jesus since the Incarnation is both God and human. That means He has both a human soul and (except for the period when He was dead after the Crucifixion) a human body. Since the Resurrection He has possessed what we call a resurrection body or a glorified body, which is still His human body but seems to lack many of the limitations of our current bodies.

As I said, there were no x-ray machines available during Jesus’ time on earth between the Resurrection and the Ascension, so we don’t know what His insides were like. We’re told that He ate food, breathed, and spoke during that time, which would suggest the presence of lungs and a digestive system at least. However, since we believe that resurrection bodies cannot again die, it must be that whatever organs He had were useful for the purposes of eating and speaking but no longer necessary for life. Hence the answers you’ve been getting, that the resurrected Jesus can breathe and eat but does not need to.

The question of the resurrected life in Heaven is even more mysterious. We know that the primary joy of Heaven is simply to exist in God’s presence, which we believe the blessed dead are doing now even without bodies. However, as you note, it is a key tenet of Christianity (and Judaism before it) that someday the bodies of the dead will be raised up and reunited to their souls. At that point, they will be glorified bodies such as Jesus now has. That suggests that there will be some kind of physical, time-and-space reality to the resurrected existence, and therefore that the mentions of amazing sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and textures in Heaven are not entirely metaphorical. Presumably Jesus’ human body, along with that of His mother Mary and possibly those of the 2-3 Old Testament saints who are implied to have undergone bodily assumption, is already able to experience those pleasures.

Now, does having a human body (and soul) add anything to God? Of course not. As others have stated, God freely chose to take on human nature, not for Himself, but as part of His plan to bring us back into the family. As Jesus, He was able to show us both what God is really like in human terms and what a perfect human being was like. His life of perfect obedience and willing, innocent death somehow balanced the scales of God’s justice for the sin of Adam as well as all of our personal sins… (Exactly how the atonement “worked” has prompted numerous competing theories among Christians and is beyond the scope of this thread.) Even now Jesus is both God and man – not, importantly, a man who was deified or a god who merely took on human appearance temporarily – and therefore serves as the unique intercessor between us and the Father. (“Yahweh” is one possible rendition of the Name that belongs to the entire Trinity. We call the First Person “the Father.” As with the atonement, we can tackle the mechanics of the Trinity in another thread if you like.)

Does any of that absolutely require that Jesus have lungs or veins? It doesn’t seem so directly. What it does require is that He be a true human being, both during His earthly life and for all eternity to come. A human is a body-soul composite, and therefore Jesus has both a human soul and a human body inextricably united to His divinity. And thus we come full circle to the connection between Jesus’ resurrected body and ours. If we will have lungs and veins in Heaven, then so does He now. If our resurrected bodies will just be awesome-looking replicas without functioning organs, then that’s what He has too – but we cannot thereby classify His body as nonhuman since, in that case, our very human bodies would be like that after the resurrection, too.

Usagi

 

[vicwestlad]

TheHolyGhost:

IMO I would think Jesus has his veins, yes.

Are they carrying blood?

TheHolyGhost:

Jesus’ human and divine nature aside, the resurrected Christ has a glorified body that isn’t anything like our bodies that we have here on earth now. It seems weird to fathom and probably doesn’t seem very human-like, but Jesus doesn’t live on earth He lives in Heaven, a spiritual state and/or place.

Yes it really doesn’t seem very human like. If it isn’t anything like the body he had on earth and he doesn’t breath or have a heart beat, I’m not sure what the point of the empty tomb would be since basically he has a very different body anyway.

TheHolyGhost:

At the resurrection of the dead, all humans will be reunited with their corporal bodies and the humans’ bodies who are saved, will be made perfect (glorified).

Bodies of people who died thousands of years ago wouldn’t exist anywhere. And how about someone whose body was vaporized at Hiroshima?

TheHolyGhost:

I don’t think anyone is certain that the organs serve no purpose if they exist and aren’t being used,

But lungs take in oxygen and through a very complicated and very, very specific process, add oxygen to the bloodstream for distribution to the cells. What else could lungs possibly be used for? That’s a little difficult to make sense out of.

 

[vicwestlad]

Jerry-Jet:

Now did Jesus’ glorified body require food? I’d say no. People would ask: how could this be? It would BE because glorified bodies are different than physical bodies.

So Jesus doesn’t require food, doesn’t breath, his heart doesn’t beat, and the cells of the body perform no function. Yet he has the appearance of a human being. See, Jerry, that sounds like just the appearance of a human body to me, in other words a facade. He has a tongue that doesn’t taste, a throat that takes in neither food nor air, lungs that don’t function and veins that carry no blood. Seems like just the appearance of a human body. Right?

 

[vicwestlad]

Kliska:

That wasn’t the two choices you put forth; you said superfluous or facade. I’ve given plenty of biblical answers that show it is neither. There are far more than two or even three possibilities, as I’ve already demonstrated.

No, you’ve got this muddled up. You specifically quoted me as saying Jesus’ body is either functioning of a facade. That’s two choices! That’s the two you quoted me as saying and that would be my position on the functioning or facade part of the OP. That’s how you were able to call it a false dilemma. I explained that this can only be a false dilemma if there is a third choice.

So, I say his body is either functioning or a facade. That means I say it’s either one or the other. Now, if this is a “false dilemma” as you claim, what would be the third option?

Kliska:

We only live and operate in so many dimensions, yes? Heaven is neither bound nor contained by those severely limited dimensions.

Yeah, so the question was, when you use the term “plane of existence” do you mean the physical universe? That was my question. Can you answer that?

Kliska:

I imagine He does whatever He wants with it.

So when Jesus is in our “plane of existence” he uses his body but when not you have no idea what he does with it? Well, Kliska, if you say he uses it when he’s in our “plane of existence” that implies that when he’s not in our “plane of existence” he doesn’t use it. Right?

Kliska:

Dogs require intake of O2 and H2O, that doesn’t make them human.

Good point. However, if you took your dog to the vet and the vet did an X-ray and found no functioning internal organs, and the vet said, by the way, do you realize your dog isn’t breathing? And you remembered your dog hadn’t eaten anything in 3 years, and yet the dog was running around the office, barking, you’d have to think if you really had a dog or if it was just a vision of a dog, a hallucination. Wouldn’t be a real dog now would it?

Kliska:

He does if He wants to.

Ok, so Jesus has lungs but doesn’t use them, unless, once in a while he feels like taking in oxygen? What for? Why would he want to do that? I’m not sure I follow this logic.

 

[vicwestlad]

Usagi:

Hence the answers you’ve been getting, that the resurrected Jesus can breathe and eat but does not need to.

So the question I’ve been following up with is, why even have them if they’re of no use?

Usagi:

A human is a body-soul composite, and therefore Jesus has both a human soul and a human body inextricably united to His divinity

And yet his human body doesn’t even function. It has the appearance of a human body but doesn’t operate like one, or operate at all. That does seem awfully like a facade to me.

Usagi:

If our resurrected bodies will just be awesome-looking replicas without functioning organs, then that’s what He has too – but we cannot thereby classify His body as nonhuman since, in that case, our very human bodies would be like that after the resurrection, too.

I do appreciate your honesty, Usagi. So Jesus’ body “looks” like a human body. It just doesn’t function like a human body. Does the brain function at all, or does it just sit there doing nothing?

 

[gmanlq]

Well you could ask him in faith and, once he let’s you know, you can tell us both the answers to the questions posed in the OP. Start by asking Jesus in faith if he breathes and has lungs. Keep my posted.

Nicer response to someone who is trying to help you out. Best of luck to you.

 

[Kliska]

Do you notice you intentionally skip over anything that robs your rhetorical objection of any type of validity? I’ve asked you many questions having to do with this discussion and apologetics and you offer no respect to answer said questions. I’ve answered all of your originals and more. What is it that you are really asking? What is the point you are trying to make. The real point, the real question, not the game you are playing?

No, you’ve got this muddled up. You specifically quoted me as saying Jesus’ body is either functioning of a facade. That’s two choices! That’s the two you quoted me as saying and that would be my position on the functioning or facade part of the OP. That’s how you were able to call it a false dilemma. I explained that this can only be a false dilemma if there is a third choice.

So, I say his body is either functioning or a facade. That means I say it’s either one or the other. Now, if this is a “false dilemma” as you claim, what would be the third option?

If that is your two choices, then I’ve already shown how it functions. What you are trying to say is that you are demanding, for some unknown reason, that His body must function in some way that you are demanding apart from all the posts telling you clearly how it functions, and how the glorified body is to your present body as your present body is to a dead body.

You’re just arguing in circles because you don’t want us to be right or some reason.

Yeah, so the question was, when you use the term “plane of existence” do you mean the physical universe? That was my question. Can you answer that?

No, that is too limiting. Other dimensions don’t discount the current dimensions that we can observe and experience.

So when Jesus is in our “plane of existence” he uses his body but when not you have no idea what he does with it?

I’ve answered this again and again, as have others. You just keep asking the same questions when you don’t like the answers.

Well, Kliska, if you say he uses it when he’s in our “plane of existence” that implies that when he’s not in our “plane of existence” he doesn’t use it. Right?

Not at all. You are again having a problem with deductive logic.

Good point. However, if you took your dog to the vet and the vet did an X-ray and found no functioning internal organs, and the vet said, by the way, do you realize your dog isn’t breathing? And you remembered your dog hadn’t eaten anything in 3 years, and yet the dog was running around the office, barking, you’d have to think if you really had a dog or if it was just a vision of a dog, a hallucination. Wouldn’t be a real dog now would it?

Of course it would be. The dog wouldn’t be like ordinary dogs, and we say that Jesus isn’t inhabiting an ordinary body but rather a glorified body. Again, why do you think we’d expect you to understand heavenly things, when you won’t understand earthly things? This isn’t meant to be insulting, but you are like an infant demanding meat and refusing milk. When the meat is given, the infant can’t eat it. If the infant won’t drink its milk, and is too young to eat meat, it isn’t going to turn out well for the infant.

Ok, so Jesus has lungs but doesn’t use them, unless, once in a while he feels like taking in oxygen? What for? Why would he want to do that? I’m not sure I follow this logic.

Again, just because you don’t like an answer doesn’t mean you haven’t been given one.

 

[Usagi]

So the question I’ve been following up with is, why even have them if they’re of no use?

If those in Heaven have occasion to speak or eat or otherwise use their bodies, then the bodies are of use even if those functions aren’t strictly needed any longer. If not, then I must say I don’t know; I’ll add it to my list of questions for God when I see Him.

And yet his human body doesn’t even function. It has the appearance of a human body but doesn’t operate like one, or operate at all. That does seem awfully like a facade to me.

Your use of the word “facade” is tilting the discussion emotionally. You may know that there was a Christian heresy, Docetism, which claimed that Jesus’ human body was indeed just an appearance (though they seemed most concerned with the crucifixion rather than with the post-resurrection body). Catholics reject that notion, and so we are never going to say that Jesus’ body was an appearance or facade (or hallucination as you have elsewhere suggested about a dog with no internal functions). Yet we are not thereby constrained to believe that a resurrection body (including Jesus’ body now) functions exactly like a mortal human body. It is possible to have a real body, and a real human body, that is neither a limited mortal body nor a mere facade. If it’s different enough, I suppose you could call it a posthuman body if you want; the important bit is not its similarity to current human bodies but the fact that it’s the body all (blessed) humans will end up with.

I do appreciate your honesty, Usagi. So Jesus’ body “looks” like a human body. It just doesn’t function like a human body. Does the brain function at all, or does it just sit there doing nothing?

Careful. I said that IF a glorified human body turns out to be a shell that functions outwardly but doesn’t have any of the innards we presently require for biological life, then it’s fine if Jesus’ body is that way as well. I made no declaration one way or the other. Again, the important thing is that Jesus has the same kind of resurrected body that we will and therefore has a real human body (final version, which may differ considerably from the current clunky prototype), not merely the appearance of one.

As for brain function, I would presume that the glorified body’s brain-analogue does brain-analogous things, but that is entirely speculation. That is an empirical question that is impossible to answer unless we can put a resurrected person in a PET scanner or fMRI I don’t think we have any to hand, though.

Usagi

 

[TimothyH]

Seven pages of posts about Jesus’ lungs…

LOL

 

[Blue_Horizon]

One thing that distinguishes Christianity from other ideas of the afterlife is that Jesus didn’t just become a god when he died, like Roman Emperors. He came back to life in the flesh, in a human body, the same one that was lying in the tomb (transformed but still human).

Thats an unsual way of framing the question which probably makes a Christian answer illogical for you (and difficult for Christians). Its a bit like asking “have you stopped beating your wife yet.”

Whether you agree or not, Christians do not themselves really premise their Faith on an intellectual idea. Its the experience of an inexplicable reality/event (Jesus met his friends again after his death) that we try to communicate in words and sometimes concepts of prevailing philosophy. This endeavour will always be somewhat inadequate because the original event is…inexplicable and there is no way of ever really getting away from that.

So if you find the concepts “illogical” that can be due to a number of things:
(a) the prevailing definitions/concepts used to explain this primary event are notbigenough to do so.
(b) the Christians you speak to have not been well trained in philosophy or are not trying to communicate in a philosophical manner or simply do not have the horsepower to handle the depth and subtility of yourinsights/questions.
(c) you are not well trained in philosophy or do not really understand Christian concepts/jargon or do not have the horsepower to understand the original event or its past explanations formulated by Christian thinkers smarter than you.
(d) because an alleged singular past event flies in the face of universal human experience before and since - that by itself does not mean it cannot be true. If that is the case then we can expectour concepts about it will appear illogical or very unlikely. But it is very hard to logically/philosophically prove that such a thing we ourselves did not experience is so self-contradictory that it could not have possibly happened. Chances are you may be right about the limited concepts that Christians use to explain that event-but whether that negates the actual event…who the heck would know?
(e) The Resurrection event is itself just a fabrication, that is why the “concepts” used to communicate/“explain” it are self-contradictory. It was just a pure religio/conceptual hegemony to start with. Obviously Christians do notbelievethis - but you apparantly do.

That’s why the tomb was empty.

Not exactly. The empty tomb does not mean that Jesus returned in some sort of cleaned up resussitated body just like before. But you are correct that the empty tomb, when coupled with the Resurrection incidents does indicate common identity between the person in the two sets of events.

What would a god need with a physical human body? When you pray to Jesus, does he hear you with his human ears? Could he hear you without his human ears? Obviously he could. So why does he need them? When you pray for Jesus to intervene in your life, such as keep your family safe on vacation, does he use his human arms or strength? Obviously not.
What can Jesus do with a human body that he can’t do without it?

If Jesus has a physical body then does that mean he breaths? If not, then it’s not a human body. It’s just a shell, a facade. If he breaths, then he has lungs. If he doesn’t have lungs, it’s just a facade. If he has lungs, then does he have all his internal organs. This, to me, seems problematic if taken to it’s logical conclusion.

I really don’t understand how a guy as smart as you can seriously go down an intellectually “logical” but obviously vacuuous path like this.

Obviously if Jesus was physically present he would appear to our senses in the usual ways. He did after all eat fish in some of his resurrection events. That fish didn’t just get masticated and hang in mid air within a semi transparent jellyfish see through man who could n’t be touched. You need to think more deeply about what it means to be material and whether it can have modes different from what “normal” human experience dictates. Even Aristotle, for example, concluded that matter does not intrinsically have to have extension or mass. Scientists are just now beginning to realise he may have had it right 3000 odd years ago.

Some things you need to do serious Catholic research on for yourself would be:

• the fact that Jesus is more than a “god with a body.” He has a human soul as well.
• The consequences of glorification of the body, wherebythe soul has stronger powers over the body than we have now enabling the new exercise of inherent “praeternatural capabilities” including incorruption and “subtlety”. (Yes the damned have some of these qualities released by glorification also).

Of course I am speaking in concepts (borrowed from ancient secular philosophy) developed by the greatest minds of Catholicism over the 1300 yrs since to explain the singular event we call the Resurrection. Perhaps it is time for a different way/system to communicate that primary reality . Yet it still serves well enough if one takes the trouble to actually understand it (admittedly most Catholics have never been trained in the philosophy underpinning the usual Catholic jargon/words. Its far deeper than most realise)

Have a look at the old Catholic Encyclopedia online (“New advent” google search).
Look up a few things like “glorification” or “glorified body”. That rabbit hole goes very deep.

 

[vicwestlad]

Kliska:

Do you notice you intentionally skip over anything that robs your rhetorical objection of any type of validity?

Can’t possibly respond to everything every person is saying. I’m responding to about 12 people here, while you, just one. I pick out what I see as most germane to the points being discussed.

Kliska:

I’ve asked you many questions having to do with this discussion and apologetics and you offer no respect to answer said questions

I don’t want the thread to go on too many tangents but if you tell me the questions I missed that you want answered, I’ll answer them.

Kliska:

If that is your two choices, then I’ve already shown how it functions.

You’ve told me how his body functions? I’ve just gone back over your posts and I don’t see it. Can you state it succinctly for me?

Kliska:

What you are trying to say is that you are demanding, for some unknown reason, that His body must function in some way that you are demanding apart from all the posts telling you clearly how it functions, and how the glorified body is to your present body as your present body is to a dead body.

No, you’re demonstrably wrong. I’ve asked simple, straight-forward questions and actually got a variety of contradictory responses so don’t tell me it’s been clearly pointed out how it functions. Some have said he has lungs but they don’t function. Some have said they do function. Some have said they function only when he wants them to. Some have said we can’t know. Don’t tell me it’s been “clearly explained” how it functions when it hasn’t. Sheesh!

Kliska:

No, that is too limiting. Other dimensions don’t discount the current dimensions that we can observe and experience.

You seem to be quite certain of things you can’t possibly know. Other than the 4 dimensions of our universe, what other dimension(s) would be involved in our “plane of existence?” What specifically are you referring to?

Kliska:

I’ve answered this again and again, as have others. You just keep asking the same questions when you don’t like the answers.

No you didn’t. My you’re just not paying attention. All you said was you IMAGINE that he does whatever he wants. But, as I pointed out, if you say he uses his body when he’s in our “plane of existence” (whatever that means) then, by implication, he doesn’t use it when he’s not in our “plane of existence”. You have not answered this at all. Nice try.

Kliska:

Not at all. You are again having a problem with deductive logic.

Lol. If I ask my friend why he has a car because I never see him using it and he says he uses it when his motorcycle is in the shop, that mean, by implication, when the bike isn’t in the shop he doesn’t use it.

Kliska:

Of course it would be.

What would make it a dog then, if it doesn’t eat, breath, sleep, or have any internal organs? The appearance?

Kliska:

Again, why do you think we’d expect you to understand heavenly things, when you won’t understand earthly things?

Lol. I don’t “understand earthly things.” No false condescension there.

Kliska:

Again, just because you don’t like an answer doesn’t mean you haven’t been given one.

No, I asked you a follow up which you haven’t answered. Here it is again:

me:

Ok, so Jesus has lungs but doesn’t use them, unless, once in a while he feels like taking in oxygen? What for? Why would he want to do that?

So what’s your answer?

 

[vicwestlad]

Usagi:

If those in Heaven have occasion to speak or eat or otherwise use their bodies, then the bodies are of use even if those functions aren’t strictly needed any longer. If not, then I must say I don’t know; I’ll add it to my list of questions for God when I see Him.

Sorry, Usagi, but I’m not talking about what humans do. I’m talking here, specifically about Jesus. And the question was, why have lungs, if he doesn’t need them or even use them. What reason would Jesus have to suddenly want to use his lungs in heaven if he never needs to? That’s what I’m finding a little perplexing.

Usagi:

It is possible to have a real body, and a real human body, that is neither a limited mortal body nor a mere facade.

The question before you, though, is if he has a real human body, is it functioning. You seem to be leaning towards no and I’m trying to get at the question, if it’s not functioning, then, of what use is it?

Usagi:

Careful. I said that IF a glorified human body turns out to be a shell that functions outwardly but doesn’t have any of the innards we presently require for biological life, then it’s fine if Jesus’ body is that way as well

But if Jesus’ body has nothing inside, then it’s a shell. And the veins that you see are merely an illusion. There’s nothing behind the eyes, ears, mouth. I wonder, at what point his throat would disappear. This doesn’t really make sense.

Usagi:

Again, the important thing is that Jesus has the same kind of resurrected body that we will and therefore has a real human body (final version, which may differ considerably from the current clunky prototype), not merely the appearance of one.

But if, and I said if, there are no internal organs, it doesn’t eat, drink liquids, or even breath, then how is it a “real human body” other than appearance?

Usagi:

As for brain function, I would presume that the glorified body’s brain-analogue does brain-analogous things, but that is entirely speculation.

But the brain is an internal organ. So if it functions why wouldn’t other internal organs function? Not sure you’re being consistent here.

 

[Kliska]

Oh, 'lad I think you are lost and hurting, and I wish you’d speak of your real questions or intentions. I want to leave you with this; If you seek God with all your heart, with sincerity and with a love of the truth, you will find Him. We here can only answer you, we can’t understand for you. You have been given answer after answer, and provided with food to eat and you throw it on the ground claiming it is dirt. That’s a problem with your reception of it, not what is being given. If you are honest, you will admit that is a possibility even if you don’t agree with it.

I’m sorry you are mad, afraid, and hurting. I’ll pray for you. I truly mean it, and I know you’ll just huff and puff against this reply and swear up and down that it is an avoidance. That’s ok. I hope you have a good day.

 

[Usagi]

Sorry, Usagi, but I’m not talking about what humans do. I’m talking here, specifically about Jesus. And the question was, why have lungs, if he doesn’t need them or even use them. What reason would Jesus have to suddenly want to use his lungs in heaven if he never needs to? That’s what I’m finding a little perplexing.

Jesus is included in the class “those in heaven” (as well as in the class “humans”), so my answer applies just as well to him. If there are physical and sensory pleasures in Heaven that call for lungs (perhaps sweet smells or conversation), He might choose to employ His body to sample those. He does have friends and family who knew Him as a man and might want to interact with Him on that basis sometimes. I’m sure Mary is perfectly blissful just being in the Presence, but if other saintly mothers in heaven get to physically interact with their kids, she might also want to from time to time.

The question before you, though, is if he has a real human body, is it functioning. You seem to be leaning towards no and I’m trying to get at the question, if it’s not functioning, then, of what use is it?

I am actually neutral or leaning towards yes. You seem to have trouble with the distinction between “needed” and “useful.” You consider it nothing short of comical that a being might not need to breathe but might still enjoy the secondary uses of that faculty, like smelling and speaking. I’m taking a risk by bringing in fiction here, but have you never seen, say, a vampire movie with characters who don’t need to breathe but still do so to talk? This is not a combination that no mind has ever conceived.

But if Jesus’ body has nothing inside, then it’s a shell. And the veins that you see are merely an illusion. There’s nothing behind the eyes, ears, mouth. I wonder, at what point his throat would disappear. This doesn’t really make sense.

Okay, the “throat disappearing” thing is weird, which is why I’m inclined to think that the organs or some analogue are present even if not always in use, but even if it’s true that glorified bodies are just shells without innards, so what? As long as my resurrected body feels like mine, can outwardly function as a body, and is the same sort as His, why should I care if it has actual lungs and other biological systems?

But if, and I said if, there are no internal organs, it doesn’t eat, drink liquids, or even breath, then how is it a “real human body” other than appearance?

It is a real human body in that it has continuity with the original body (especially for Jesus, who was dead briefly enough that there was no issue of His particles being scattered about or incorporated into other organisms) and in that it is the sort of body God intends humans to have for all eternity.

But the brain is an internal organ. So if it functions why wouldn’t other internal organs function? Not sure you’re being consistent here.

I can more easily imagine a person who functions despite not needing to eat or breathe than one who functions despite not having any analogue of the brain. Still, I should have said IF there is an analogue to the brain, I imagine it operates in brain-analogous ways. If I don’t need to breathe, I might only call upon my lungs when I want to speak, but my brain will still be running all the time.

Usagi