Jesus' status in Islam and Judaism

[Sister_Amy]

By the way what do moslems beleive satan is. The Hebrew means accuser.

The Arabic word is “Shaytaan” and I’m not sure of the literal meaning/root. (Apologies.)

Muslims believe that there are three kinds of creation that we know about–the angels, the humans, and the jinn. While angels are creatures made of light, without free will, the humans are creatures made from clay, with free will. The jinn are creations made from fire, and they do have free will. There are some that believe in God and some that don’t. Muslims believe that Satan (Shaytaan) is one of the jinn, and his name was Iblis. After man was created, God told the angels and everyone to bow to Adam, but Iblis didn’t want to, because he said he was better than Adam. Because of his disobedience to God, Iblis was expelled from the Garden, and became an avowed enemy to mankind, swearing to guide them astray from God’s guidance.

Muslims believe he has servants who try to cause trouble in the affairs of men. (shayateen, plural of shaytaan)

 

[Angelos]

What did I misunderstand?

I am from the US. The only country with the strength to fight off Satan’s minions.

I did NOT claim that you were NOT a Christian. I am not your personal judge, so do not worry.

I only wanted to provoke you and make you think how it is possible to reach that conclusion with the help of your arguments. I, personally, would never waste my time and energy to prove Christians that Islam is a celestial religion, for I do not believe it that way and I do not think it is necessary to defend Islam.

Peace to you

 

[dolphinlove]

Also, I would like you to explain to me how God is so cruel to people of the Middle East. I understand that Islam is not restricted to the Middle East, yet living there means being immersed in Satans lies. Don’t you agree that if you are born to Muslim parents it greatly increases your chances of believing in Satan’s evil lies? Explain to me why God would be so cruel. Satan’s greatest lie (Islam) is very much a cultural, geographical, and historical phenomenon. Why would God do that to people?

Why does God let wars happen? Why does God let poverty happen? Why does God allow the nazi’s to happen? There are many why’s as to ‘why’ these things happen.
But Im not God, so i have no idea why he allows these things to happen. But the one thing i do know for sure, all these evils are created by man.
A majority of wars that have been started are in the name of God, not started by God himself. Take ww2 for example, this was created by man, one man in fact, and look at the atrocities he managed to do in a span of 20+ years. Mary did state in her message to Fatima a worse war would break out if we did not pray and give ourselves to the Lord. Well, we didnt listen, and look what happened. He gave us the warning, a BIG warning, we did not listen, and the war started.
Basically, if we ALL followed Jesus, followed his teachings, showed love to one another, I can guarantee there would be a lot less pain and suffering on this earth, but basically we bring it on ourselves, God does not. He loves us.
Although i will say, he does have a way of disciplining us and showing us the true path so we wont stray again.

In saying this, have you ever heard of this saying:
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.
Well he does exist, and he will do what it takes to upset God and lead people straight to hell, so what does he do, create a false religion and let the followers think they are doing the right thing by God.
There are elements in Islam that can mislead people into thinking they are really following a religion created by God, so, if your born into an Islamic family, raised into believing it, its hard to believe another religion could possibly be right.
But, once you start to question to quran, the hadiths, and ask yourself the big one, why in the bible does it say the devil can reveal himself as an angel?
Then you have Mohammed, a man who was illiterate, uneducated (so he claimed). So he isnt the brightest tool in the shed, the ‘devil/angel’ appears to this poor misguided man and starts telling him of this new prophecy. Of course he is going to feel special, of course he is not going to question the angel about the legitimacy of the quran. He then spreads this by the sword, which is either convert or die, but muslims dont see this as violence, they think its spreading their truth.
But as you can see from history, we have seen people like Hitler, who, as a person, was once a struggling artist. Then completely changed and became a relentless power hungry murderer, this was of course aided by the devil (imo).
So you see, the devil has the power to manipulate a mans thoughts. He is constantly attempting to corrupt us always, we just have to be faithful to Jesus and ask for his help in warding the devil off and not to be lured into false beliefs.
I could really go on and on, but i think i have made part of my point here. God is not cruel, he is loving, its us that are cruel. We are ourselves influenced by evil when we are not on our guard. So we have to be careful.
I feel sorry for many people in Islam, i know they think they are doing the right thing, they think they are living in peace and are loving, but on the other side of the coin, it doesnt take much to provoke them to start saying ‘kill this, kill that’ So that thought alone is an influence by the devil.
Anyway, thats my 2c worth, probably many wont agree with me, but thats my opinion…

 

[inJESUS]

Ed, when a Tsunami kills millions of people, does it necessarily mean it was God? no.

The Bible warns against satan, that he will even masquerade as an angel of truth to mislead not only too many, but even the elect.

I will give my observation and please read it carefully:

in the Middle East and among Muslims, invoking jinn(or whatever name you might give them) is unimaginably widespread. We call these people who invoke jinn as sheikh. …they cast spells and “remove” them as well.

every sunday, we have an exorcism episode on our Catholic channel. People give witness as to what lead them to be possessed and it always the same thing : going to these sheikh to remove a spell, or to know what is going on in their life, and these sheikh give them things to drink and hide all over their house and other peoples’ house by the help of these jinn…step by step these people end up either possessed or under sever demonic influence and end up eventually in the church to get an exorcism and we actually do see the exorcism on tv .These people are going live on tv to give their testimonies and how much they were tormented.

The church is emphasizing that these things are evil and lead to disasters…it is a great sin and needs repentance.

Muslims believe some of these jinn are muslims and good jinn. Invoking them is not wrong. Muhammad had personal encounters with jinn, he even had a jinn as his companion (yea a Muslim one) telling him to do things…This is all false. There is nothing called a muslim or believer jinn, it was a tactic to say that these are not evil spirits, and the sheikh tell you the same…that’s how much they understand.

now you will tell me how come a man who invokes jinn will preachabout God. Ed, satan is very ruse, not stupid. He makes you believe he is good spirit telling the truth, and you might not know all your life that this is a lie. There are endless people who invoke jinn and pray and preach about God! this is a fact that is why some think “there is nothing wrong if these people talk about God!”, and they end up demon-possessed because it is a trick, and God warns agaist invoking them.

i do not expect you to grasp what am saying, it is something hard to understand if you are not aware of many things related to this " unseen world". Neither i am telling you you must believe Muhammad used to invoke Jinn. I am explaining to you that first, it is not always “God’s fault”, there are too many false religions, not created by God, neither does preaching about God mean you have no relation with jinn or whatever name you want to give them. Even Muhammad is said to have been under “magic” for over a year when he was preaching. We had a man who used to pray, ask people to pray, do prayer gathering and he even built his own church! but then he used to ask for money for castiing and removing spells and for “praying” for you and after being watched carefully by people he was exposed and his “church” destroyed…see, he was leading prayers and giving “nice teachings” and preaching about God yet it was his trick to get money from people by invoking spirits to make people come to him and pay him without knowing why and he even lead a polygamous life.

So be careful not to lump everything under “God did it”. Invoking jinn and spirits is a mortal sin in the Bible and if you do it, you are calling these inferiors demons, not God and you will end up needing exorcism in the name of Jesus.

 

[swariffin]

It has never been easy for me to believe that God would totally mislead (through Satan, of course!) so many people. Just doesn’t seem fair. I believe Satan’s greatest lies will be more…(can’t find the right word)…international? I believe one of the main aspects of his lies will be materialism, consumerism, love for THIS world and all you can get from it. I believe this is backed up by the passages about Babylon in Revelation. Satan also tempts Jesus by offering him the whole world. Islam is all about God. The reason they don’t think He was a man is because they hold Him in such high esteem. And Islam is much more clear than Christianity about not loving the things of THIS world. These seem like odd lies for Satan to spread.

Dear Ed,

Who said that. Take a look of all those Oil Jet Set from the Far East, with their Mercedeses, Feraris and Private Jets. Dear Ed. Materialism is materialism, no matter what a religion that one has. You are overgeneralizing for saying that Islam in not loving the things of THIS world. If that so, why would they not turn their cheek when being offensed? What the Palestian care right now. It is their eartly land, correct. I must admit that it is their right. But, is it not THIS world?

 

[swariffin]

not one of you corrected Angelo for telling me that I am not of your faith. it passed without comment, as a given. and I never mixed those two groups, smarty pants.

Dear Ed,

I am sorry. Perhaps you are correct. But it is to you that I am communicating. And, by doing so, I tend to overlook what other people is posting, including Angelos.

 

[swariffin]

Also, I would like you to explain to me how God is so cruel to people of the Middle East. I understand that Islam is not restricted to the Middle East, yet living there means being immersed in Satans lies. Don’t you agree that if you are born to Muslim parents it greatly increases your chances of believing in Satan’s evil lies? Explain to me why God would be so cruel. Satan’s greatest lie (Islam) is very much a cultural, geographical, and historical phenomenon. Why would God do that to people?

Why do you think that God is so cruel to the Middle Eastern coutries? God bless them with Oil reserve. I personally does not think that Islam is Satan’s inspired. But, I do not think that it is from God either. My view is that Muhammad tried to find good teaching for his fellow people, which is reflected by the Meccan part of the teaching. But, either Muhammad made a mistake or his successor diluted the good Meccan part of the teaching by the violent Medina part which included the loosely interpreted Jihadist verses.

 

[ralphinal]

You’re right. This is a difficult question. I often wonder how succesful Christianity would have been if it wasn’t spread with the sword just like Islam. The Europeans came with the sword but also the Bible. a blessing and a curse. Strange how it works. Thank you for at least attempting to answer this.
It has never been easy for me to believe that God would totally mislead (through Satan, of course!) so many people. Just doesn’t seem fair. I believe Satan’s greatest lies will be more…(can’t find the right word)…international? I believe one of the main aspects of his lies will be materialism, consumerism, love for THIS world and all you can get from it. I believe this is backed up by the passages about Babylon in Revelation. Satan also tempts Jesus by offering him the whole world. Islam is all about God. The reason they don’t think He was a man is because they hold Him in such high esteem. And Islam is much more clear than Christianity about not loving the things of THIS world. These seem like odd lies for Satan to spread.

Honestly, had people not resorted to spreading Christianity by the sword, it would ahve spread anyway. And the converts would have been better converts, more devout. Yes, it might have taken longer, but it would have been better.

Islam is not more clear about not loving the things of this world, as they are promised in heaven. What it is more clear about is the rituals needed and how things get in the way. It is a how to religion, not a what is religion. Christ was very clear about not loving the things of this world. Very clear. And we are not promised ONE SINGLE ITEM OR PERSON in heaven other thabn God. Think about it. Is there sex in heaven? Wine? Anything in the Bible that makes heaven sound like a place that we get waht we did not have here?

 

[hamba2han]

Then why do you have to kiss the Black Stone (Hajr Aswat?? forgive me if i made a spelling mistake) in Hajj ritual. I heard that it is believed as a mark where Muhammad step in his foot. If it is correct, why do you have to kiss Muhammad remnant? That is idolatry. You are worshipping Muhammad, my friend.

The current ritual of the Hajj involves pilgrims attempting to kiss the stone seven times (once for each circumambulation of the Kaaba), emulating the actions of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

When Umar ibn al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him), the second Caliph, came to kiss the Stone, he said in front of all assembled: "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah’s Messenger [Muhammad] kissing you, I would not have kissed you."

Many Muslims follow Umar in that they pay their respects to the Black Stone in a spirit of trust in Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), not with any belief in the Black Stone itself. This, however does not indicate their disrespect to the stone, but their belief that harm and benefit are in the hands of God, and nothing else.

And so you see, the ONLY reason why Muslims kiss the stone is because the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was seen kissing it.

By comparison, why do Catholics kneel, bow and pray to the statues of Mary?

Did Jesus (pbuh) ever knelt, bow and prayed towards such statues and graven images?

 

[swariffin]

Many Muslims follow Umar in that they pay their respects to the Black Stone in a spirit of trust in Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), not with any belief in the Black Stone itself. This, however does not indicate their disrespect to the stone, but their belief that harm and benefit are in the hands of God, and nothing else.

And so you see, the ONLY reason why Muslims kiss the stone is because the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was seen kissing it.

By comparison, why do Catholics kneel, bow and pray to the statues of Mary?

Did Jesus (pbuh) ever knelt, bow and prayed towards such statues and graven images?

Ho…ho… my dear friend,

That is exactly the same reason about our statue. The same reason is for us just as a remembrance that Jesus is with us. If i accidently caused the statue of Jesus in my church (actually it happened, anyway), all I need to do is buy a new one to replace the damaged one. The priest will never condemn me sinning by breaking the statue of Jesus. There is never been any believe to the statue it self. When I clean the statue of Jesus in my room, I used the same cloth used to clean my TV set or furniture. No special holy cloth or holy water to clean it.

About Mary, We believe that Mary will bring us to Jesus. My Protestant friend argues that we can go directly to Jesus, ourselves. Well, that is correct anyway. But imagine as we read in John 2, about the story of the wedding in Caana. It was Mary who act on behalf of the groom and the party leader to Jesus. That is what Mary is doing for the believer. She will act on our behalf bringing us to Jesus, especially when we don’t even know that we are in trouble.

Why Jesus never knelt toward anything? Because Jesus is the one that we need to kneel down toward.

Thanks anyway for your info.

 

[hamba2han]

Why Jesus never knelt toward anything?

This is NOT what I asked.

My question was:

Did Jesus (pbuh) ever kneel, bow and pray towards such statues and graven images?

Since the answer is most definitely ‘NO’, then why do Popes do it?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[ralphinal]

This is NOT what I asked.

My question was:

Did Jesus (pbuh) ever kneel, bow and pray towards such statues and graven images?

Since the answer is most definitely ‘NO’, then why do Popes do it?

http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/assets/images/Pope-Mary-3.jpg

Likewise, he never knelt, bowed, or prayed toward Mecca.

It is about acknowledging what that person means to us in the life of faith. The statues are those who are the greatest examples of what it is to be Christian. The statue cannot do anything, but we can learn from the person that it represents.

 

[Angelos]

This is NOT what I asked.

My question was:

Did Jesus (pbuh) ever kneel, bow and pray towards such statues and graven images?

Since the answer is most definitely ‘NO’, then why do Popes do it?

http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/assets/images/Pope-Mary-3.jpg

Your reasoning makes no sense to me. We Christians never assert that Christ restricted our mode of worship to His acts. Actually, Christ only taught us to call God “Father” and recite the prayer known as the Lord’s prayer. However, it is wrong for Christians to presume that Jesus Himself used the phrase “our Father” in His personal prayers.

Likewise, Jesus did NOT want us to fast in the same way as Jews did:

Mark 2:18-20
And the disciples of John and the Pharisees used to fast. And they come and say to him: Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast; but thy disciples do not fast? And Jesus saith to them: Can the children of the marriage fast, as long as the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. But** the days will come when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them: and then they shall fast in those days. **

We Christians are supposed to emulate Christ, our role model, in spiritual things and virtues, for in Christianity, unlike in Islam, internal precedes and overrides the external:

John 4:21-24
Jesus saith to her: Woman, believe me that the hour cometh, when you shall neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, adore the Father. You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know. For salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. God is a spirit: and **they that adore him must adore him in spirit and in truth. **

 

[hamba2han]

In the Bible, the second commandment forbids both the making of any physical representation of God (“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image…”), and the worshipping of God by the means of any such image (“Thou shalt not bow down to them nor worship them…”).

Moses (pbuh) reminded the children of Israel, lest they be tempted to transgress this command and make any image of God:

Deuteronomy 4:14-24
**14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth…

23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.**

Since the God that Moses (pbuh) worshipped sternly warned his followers against making any graven images “the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female”, then does it make any sense at all that the God that Jesus (pbuh) worshipped should have a change of heart regarding this matter?

BTW, followers really do need to play the part i.e. it is absolutely essential that they actually follow the actions and example set by the one they profess to follow, not merely sit back and pontificate on the “true meaning” of the things that he taught.

 

[ralphinal]

In the Bible, the second commandment forbids both the making of any physical representation of God (“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image…”), and the worshipping of God by the means of any such image (“Thou shalt not bow down to them nor worship them…”).

Moses (pbuh) reminded the children of Israel, lest they be tempted to transgress this command and make any image of God:

Deuteronomy 4:14-24
**14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth…

23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.**

Since the God that Moses (pbuh) worshipped sternly warned his followers against making any graven images “the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female”, then does it make any sense at all that the God that Jesus (pbuh) worshipped should have a change of heart regarding this matter?

BTW, followers really do need to play the part i.e. it is absolutely essential that they actually follow the actions and example set by the one they profess to follow, not merely sit back and pontificate on the “true meaning” of the things that he taught.

Next time you are in the mood, please look up the directions that God gave for the Ark of the Conenant. He told them to make graven angels as part of it. Did God change his mind right after telling them not to?

 

[Angelos]

In the Bible, the second commandment forbids both the making of any physical representation of God (“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image…”), and the worshipping of God by the means of any such image (“Thou shalt not bow down to them nor worship them…”).

Since the God that Moses (pbuh) worshipped sternly warned his followers against making any graven images “the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female”, then does it make any sense at all that the God that Jesus (pbuh) worshipped should have a change of heart regarding this matter?

Could you please cite the Bible verse where God commands Israelites NOT to make His physical representation? The second commandment forbids people from carving idols (of strange gods) and worshipping those images instead of God himself!

Exodus 20:2-5
I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

BTW, followers really do need to play the part i.e. it is absolutely essential that they actually follow the actions and example set by the one they profess to follow, not merely sit back and pontificate on the “true meaning” of the things that he taught.

We are not supposed to imitate every certain act of Christ, our role model. Why do you Muslims drive cars instead of riding camels as Mohammad did? Why don’t you keep Jesus and Mary’s pictures (icons, frescoes, and mosaics) in churches you turn into mosques after your conquests? Why don’t you imitate Mohammad, who did not let people destroy Jesus and Mary’s icon in the Cube, the holiest shrine of Islam???

Jesus was born under the Mosaic Law and lived like a Jew, whose only scripture was the Torah. Do you really want us to do the same and read only the Old Testament in our communal worship? Look and see to what absurd conclusions your reasoning leads us!

 

[Sepharad]

Next time you are in the mood, please look up the directions that God gave for the Ark of the Conenant. He told them to make graven angels as part of it. Did God change his mind right after telling them not to?

Doesn’t it say in the Ten Commandments not to “make unto YOURSELF graven images”? I take that to mean people are not to make for their own personal worship use, graven images, because they can be misused by people (as many feel Catholicism does.)

 

[Angelos]

Doesn’t it say in the Ten Commandments not to “make unto YOURSELF graven images”? I take that to mean people are not to make for their own personal worship use, graven images, because they can be misused by people (as many feel Catholicism does.)

What does this mean? Does God allow people to worship graven images made by others and for others?

God also asked Moses to make for the Israelites a bronze serpent in the desert!

 

[hamba2han]

Could you please cite the Bible verse where God commands Israelites NOT to make His physical representation? The second commandment forbids people from carving idols (of strange gods) and worshipping those images instead of God himself!

Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

I would think that “any” means exactly that i.e. any image.

 

[dolphinlove]

Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

I would think that “any” means exactly that i.e. any image.

How many times and how many ways do we have to continue to explain this. By kneeling down does not mean we are worshipping the statue nor praying to it. We are praying to GOD. We are also asking for saints to intercede for us, not to worship them!
By bowing down to a statue, we are NOT, i repeat not worshipping it, we are asking that saint to pray with us to GOD.
Is this simple to understand?