Jesus' status in Islam and Judaism

[hamba2han]

How many times and how many ways do we have to continue to explain this. By kneeling down does not mean we are worshipping the statue nor praying to it. We are praying to GOD. We are also asking for saints to intercede for us, not to worship them!
By bowing down to a statue, we are NOT, i repeat not worshipping it, we are asking that saint to pray with us to GOD.
Is this simple to understand?

Be that as it may, it still does not explain why you need to set up statues and graven images in order to worship God.

After all, Jesus (pbuh) NEVER worshipped God by kneeling, bowing and praying towards statues and graven images, did he?

Why then do the so called “Jesus followers” of the Catholic faith choose to clearly NOT follow him in the way that he himself worshipped God?

 

[dolphinlove]

Be that as it may, it still does not explain why you need to set up statues and graven images in order to worship God.

After all, Jesus (pbuh) NEVER worshipped God by kneeling, bowing and praying towards statues and graven images, did he?

Why then do the so called “Jesus followers” of the Catholic faith choose to clearly NOT follow him in the way that he himself worshipped God?

The images are not set up to worship God, you got that wrong again!
Statues are set up for different purposes, as to remind us of the saints, what the saints did and how they followed Gods commandments. They are also used to show children or whoever they are, more of a teaching tool of who they are.
We also, as i explained before, bow down to pray WITH the saint to ask them to intercede and pray WITH us to God.
So as you can see, statues have their purposes other than what you think they are used for.

Maybe Jesus didnt bow down to pray to statues (as you claim we do) because there was no saint statues at the time?
And further more, and as we have explained to you goodness knows how many times, God ordered the making of statues in the bible also, but as we also explain to you, many times, these are NOT worshipped!!!
Ex25:
16 Inside the ark you will put the Testimony which I am about to give you.
17 'You will also make a mercy-seat of pure gold, two and a half cubits long and one and a half cubits wide,
18 and you will model two great winged creatures of beaten gold, you will make them at the two ends of the mercy-seat.
19 Model one of the winged creatures at one end and the other winged creature at the other end; you will model the winged creatures of a piece with the mercy-seat at either end.
20 The winged creatures must have their wings spread upwards, protecting the mercy-seat with their wings and facing each other, their faces being towards the mercy-seat.
21 You will put the mercy-seat on the top of the ark, and inside the ark you will put the Testimony which I am about to give you.

Now, can you tell us why you turn to pray to a big black rock in mecca? Isnt that worshipping a rock?

 

[swariffin]

Did Jesus (pbuh) ever knelt, bow and prayed towards such statues and graven images?

Sorry I missed your question. The answer is no. Because during Jesus time, there was no statue of Jesus, Mary or the Cross.

Now you answer my question. Why should Muhammad ever need to kiss a stone? and that should be followed by his follower? That means that Muhammad was treating the stone as God, and that is idolatry.

If Muhammad did not consider the stone as God, and yet kiss it. My question is why you should follow him? Is it true that if the Kissing of the stone is left, then your Hajj ritual is considered incomplete? You are silently put Muhammad to the level of God yourself, my friend.

If Muhammad was tired, lay down underneath a tree, had a good rest there, would you then venerated that tree and need to do the same in your Hajj ritual?

If one of the wife of Muhammad accidently put too much salt in the food, and Muhammad spit it. Would you call salt as haram?

 

[swariffin]

Well, Hamba2han,

It is funny that you can explain that the black stone is not God when you guys bother and spend time to “fight” the crowd in order to kiss it, and yet accusing other people of idolatry when we have statues. Puting the symbol of cresent moon and star on top of every mosque is idolatry by your own standard.

We are not required to kneel in front of the statue of Jesus or Mary of the Cross when we pray, and we can have and duplicate as many statue of Jesus as we want. Praying with or without any statue does not change the prayer. There is no single statue of Jesus that cannot be replaced. Why you call it worshipping?

On the other hand, the Black stone of Mecca MUST be kissed by all Hajj pilgrims and **CANNOT be duplicated **to be located elsewhere. That is an UNDECLARED HOLINESS STATUS in that Black stone, to make it so special and cannot be duplicated. That things is MORE IDOLATRY even to take your standard of logic. If you don’t see what I mean, that will show your double standard kind of thinking.

Now tell me, if the Black Stone is not Idolatry, may I take it, and spit on it? or let my kid urinated it? If you want to urinate my statue of Jesus, Go ahead and do so without any murder threat.

 

[Glaucon]

Be that as it may, it still does not explain why you need to set up statues and graven images in order to worship God.

After all, Jesus (pbuh) NEVER worshipped God by kneeling, bowing and praying towards statues and graven images, did he?

Why then do the so called “Jesus followers” of the Catholic faith choose to clearly NOT follow him in the way that he himself worshipped God?

Feigning perpetual ignorance. Niiiiiice…

Obvious troll is obvious.

 

[Angelos]

Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

I would think that “any” means exactly that i.e. any image.

NOPE. “Any image” does not include the supposed physical representation of God because God is invisible! The verse you quoted forbids Israelites from worshipping idols: physical representation of strange gods.

 

[Angelos]

Be that as it may, it still does not explain why you need to set up statues and graven images in order to worship God.

Your word choice is deliberately wrong and misleading. In order to make your arguments sound true, you play with words. We Christians do NOT need to make statues to worship God.

 

[dolphinlove]

Your word choice is deliberately wrong and misleading. In order to make your arguments sound true, you play with words. We Christians do NOT need to make statues to worship God.

I think a thing called lack of not wanting to understand has a big part to play in this as well.
He knows Islam is wrong, he is trying to convince himself its right.

 

[Glaucon]

I think a thing called lack of not wanting to understand has a big part to play in this as well.
He knows Islam is wrong, he is trying to convince himself its right.

Exactly.

 

[Angelos]

I definitely agree with both of you

 

[sambos671]

NOPE. “Any image” does not include the supposed physical representation of God because God is invisible! The verse you quoted forbids Israelites from worshipping idols: physical representation of strange gods.

To be fair. There are many lay Catholics who don’t understand their faith and do pray to statues of saints. They look for tears or blood on the statue. Much like the Greeks did they their gods. If the statue is not being prayed to then why put a crown of flowers on it and adorn it like it is a special thing? Also the serpent argument is kind of bad because the Isrealites began worshiping it as God. It had to be done away with. I think there are many catholics that believe in the power of their statues though the church doesn’t teach that. I’ve known catholics to pray more often to saints then to their lord and savior. It can easily lead many into thinking that the church is full of idoliters.

 

[Glaucon]

To be fair. There are many lay Catholics who don’t understand their faith and do pray to statues of saints. They look for tears or blood on the statue. Much like the Greeks did they their gods. If the statue is not being prayed to then why put a crown of flowers on it and adorn it like it is a special thing? Also the serpent argument is kind of bad because the Isrealites began worshiping it as God. It had to be done away with. I think there are many catholics that believe in the power of their statues though the church doesn’t teach that. I’ve known catholics to pray more often to saints then to their lord and savior. It can easily lead many into thinking that the church is full of idoliters.

How dare you question Catholic doctrine that way! An albino assassin-monk shall now be dispatched to your location.

(Just kidding, really. )

Ah, we pray to saints, true. But we don’t worship them now, do we?

Anyways, this is a discussion about Jesus in Islam and Judaism, and I suggest you raise that question elsewhere.

 

[Sepharad]

To be fair. There are many lay Catholics who don’t understand their faith and do pray to statues of saints. They look for tears or blood on the statue. Much like the Greeks did they their gods. If the statue is not being prayed to then why put a crown of flowers on it and adorn it like it is a special thing? Also the serpent argument is kind of bad because the Isrealites began worshiping it as God. It had to be done away with. I think there are many catholics that believe in the power of their statues though the church doesn’t teach that. I’ve known catholics to pray more often to saints then to their lord and savior. It can easily lead many into thinking that the church is full of idoliters.

I agree. I grew up in a very ethnic community made up of immigrant Eastern European Jews, as well as immigrant Italian Catholics and Polish Catholics.

I remember, many times, seeing Italian and Polish saint processions through the streets…people would rush up and pin dollar bills to the clothing that had been placed on the statues. Those of us who were Jewish used to see this, and it certainly seemed to us as if it were pagan revelries.

 

[Angelos]

To be fair. There are many lay Catholics who don’t understand their faith and do pray to statues of saints. They look for tears or blood on the statue. Much like the Greeks did they their gods. If the statue is not being prayed to then why put a crown of flowers on it and adorn it like it is a special thing? Also the serpent argument is kind of bad because the Isrealites began worshiping it as God. It had to be done away with. I think there are many catholics that believe in the power of their statues though the church doesn’t teach that. I’ve known catholics to pray more often to saints then to their lord and savior. It can easily lead many into thinking that the church is full of idoliters.

Why do people kiss the pictures of their beloved although they know the pictures are not alive?

Mistakes of some people cannot prevent others from venerating the saints represented by icons or statues.

 

[hamba2han]

Now you answer my question. Why should Muhammad ever need to kiss a stone? and that should be followed by his follower? That means that Muhammad was treating the stone as God, and that is idolatry.

When a mother kisses her baby, does it mean that she is treating the infant as God???

When the captain of a victorious football team kisses the trophy that has just been presented to him, does this mean that he considers it to be an object of worship??

Muslims believe that the Black Stone to have come from Paradise and the reason Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) kissed it is because he considered it to be a precious object… just as say an Olympic medal would be considered a precious object by just about every athlete who is competing for it.

And since Muslims are continually competing for a place in Paradise in the Hereafter, should it come as any surprise then that we too would want to kiss the Black Stone while we are still in this world?

 

[inJESUS]

When a mother kisses her baby, does it mean that she is treating the infant as God???

what if she is kissing his photo?

Muslims believe that the Black Stone to have come from Paradise and the reason Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) kissed it is because he considered it to be a precious object

 

[Valke2]

Love your neighbor.

 

[dolphinlove]

When a mother kisses her baby, does it mean that she is treating the infant as God???

When the captain of a victorious football team kisses the trophy that has just been presented to him, does this mean that he considers it to be an object of worship??

Muslims believe that the Black Stone to have come from Paradise and the reason Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) kissed it is because he considered it to be a precious object… just as say an Olympic medal would be considered a precious object by just about every athlete who is competing for it.

And since Muslims are continually competing for a place in Paradise in the Hereafter, should it come as any surprise then that we too would want to kiss the Black Stone while we are still in this world?

Ok, thats all good and fine, but you have stated when we pray ‘to’ statues, we are worshipping that statue. Now, you pray 5 times a day towards a black stone, is that not considered worshipping a stone?
As we have tried to explain to you, when we pray ‘with’ the statues present in front of us, we are praying to God, but for some reason, you find it hard to accept this and continue to call us worshippers of idols.
Now to kneel before a statue, you cant seem to get your head around the fact we are only praying with this statue, so, i would like to hear your explanation for praying to a big black rock and accepting that your praying to God, after all, you ARE praying to a rock, are you worshipping this rock? What has the rock done for you? After all, the saints remind us of what they did in the service of God, to remind us they gave up everything for God and did things according to his wishes.
But a big black rock, what did this big black rock do for God? Did it create water for the thirsty? Did it build a house for the homeless? Come on, it must have done something??!!??

 

[swariffin]

Ok, thats all good and fine, but you have stated when we pray ‘to’ statues, we are worshipping that statue. Now, you pray 5 times a day towards a black stone, is that not considered worshipping a stone?
As we have tried to explain to you, when we pray ‘with’ the statues present in front of us, we are praying to God, but for some reason, you find it hard to accept this and continue to call us worshippers of idols.
Now to kneel before a statue, you cant seem to get your head around the fact we are only praying with this statue, so, i would like to hear your explanation for praying to a big black rock and accepting that your praying to God, after all, you ARE praying to a rock, are you worshipping this rock? What has the rock done for you? After all, the saints remind us of what they did in the service of God, to remind us they gave up everything for God and did things according to his wishes.
But a big black rock, what did this big black rock do for God? Did it create water for the thirsty? Did it build a house for the homeless? Come on, it must have done something??!!??

Dear Dolph,

This is the discussion I want to bring Hamba2han into. Thanks for stepping earlier. You know, it is always be much easier to accuse others rather then oneself, eventhough talking about the same issue.

A Black stone from Heaven??? If that is true, then at least we can conclude that the geologically heaven is about the same as the earth. Hamba2han told us that Muhammad believed that the black stone is from heaven. Did he mentioned it in the Quran?
Why did God throw the stone to the earth? Did it come from an angel was upset playing with another, pick a stone, throw it to the other angel, miss him, and the stone fall into the earth? Very interesting story indeed.

 

[Glaucon]

Let’s show some charity this time. Our Muslim friend here (hamba2han) has been asking good questions as of late.