Jesus' status in Islam and Judaism

[Valke2]

According to Judaism, Ishmael was the father of the Ishmaelites. I don’t think all arabs trace their ancestory to the Ishmaelites, do they? Did Mohammed?

 

[Sister_Amy]

correct so in this regard Ed is a muslim not a Muslim. He submits to God without believing in Muhammad as prophet.

 

[inJESUS]

Here’s what all this says to me:
1)God does not Lie, but also would not send Satan to spread a message that is so similar to His.

it is not God, but satan who masquearades to mislead many…these are not my words, rememer…satan is the father of lies but not stupid…satan misleads my making you think that you are on the right path…how? by telling you " hey am satan believe in me"?? of course not, but by twisting God’s words . Islam does not resemble God’s word…Islam opposes most of what is said and done by Jesus…hardly “so similar”…

He would not fulfill his promise to Ishmael by sending Satan to found a nation.

you are relying on your misunderstanding of God’s primses to Abraham’s descendant instead on relying on the clear and unequivocal warnings of Jesus about false prophets, about satan masquerading as angel of light to mislead, and about the fact that it is Jesus who will send prophets after Him, to preach His good news, and not to bring a different gospel that insults everything Jesus said and did.

God speaks to different people at different times in different ways for reasons we cannot fully understand. Such are the mysteries of His plan.

i NEED to explain to you the difference between LIE and different message. If God gives a covenant and fulfills it by an eternal one, hence some changes, then here you can rightefully talk about changes fron old to new…yet a deity saying that Jesus was crucified, and 600 years later saying you are DELUDED if you believe that Jesus was a crucified, this deity is a PSYCHO and is no deity but a LIAR. If you do not understand the difference, let me know so that i give a different example.

3)Muslims are once again a people enslaved to the law. The teachings of Christ as taught in the New Testament are His most sublime Revelations, yet He has taught Muslims, and commanded to Muslims, different things.

going back to our point, God is not a liar.

5)Because Christians are so often transgressors, because so many have shown so little faith in what they have been taught and promised, God has willed that Muslims remain in opposition to them in order that we all might be tested.

and Christians are a result of Jewish transgressions right? Jesus is a false messiah sent by God to punish Jews right? since when does God lie to teach anything?

Here’s the short answer to your question inJESUS:
The question of Jesus’ status and his death, crucifixion, etc. is of utmost importance because this determines whether you are a follower of Christianity or of Islam.

actually it answeres whether you follow the Word of God or heresy.

God leaves us free to choose.

where is freedom of choice in the fact that God says Jesus was crucified and later changes His mind according to your theory?

Once again:
“O followers of the Book! why do you dispute about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him; do you not then understand?”

am not disputing Abraham but someone who opposed everything taught and done by Jesus by claiming that a spirit talked to him whether it is Muhammad or any “prophet” visited by a spirit who gave him another gospel.

Do you not then understand inJESUS? that those who live by faith in what God has promised them will enter into life?

yes, but this does not mean that God lies.

 

[Sister_Amy]

isn’t this calling God a liar by telling Him that His Word is corrupt, regardless of His saying His words cannot be corrupt, in both NT and OT, before Muhammad?

 

[inJESUS]

Exactly, so this idea came to them either through the Old Testament or the Qur’an

OT no…this idea was invented by Muslims.

I’m confused now. Do you mean Muhammad? You are not disputing that Ishmael was the father of Muhammad’s people are you?

 

[inJESUS]

If he believes the Qur’an is the Word of God, how is it possible to not believe that Muhammad was a prophet (nabi) and messenger (rasool)?

because he believes that Jesus was crucified and resurrected and that He is the Judge of his soul…in order for Ed to believe that Muhammad is a prophet, he must disbelieve in these things at the same time. He might if he is insane, but so far i believe he is an intelligent person

 

[Sister_Amy]

True enough. Why should anyone outside of SA prefer Islam?

Why should anyone outside of the Vatican prefer Catholicism? I don’t even understand the question. Islam is a religion for all people, the last prophet (Muhammad) was sent to all of mankind. Anybody can be a Muslim.

Not all Christians ignore them. Most Christains follow the Commandments very well. Now, if you mean the food laws, God released us from them. If you mean the sacraficial laws, Jesus replaced them.

There are not just the 10 Commandments. There are books of laws in the Bible. Some have to do with food, some have to do with sacrifice. Most have to do with behavior. I suggest you read them. Leviticus and Deuteronomy would be a good place to start.

If you mean no Christian follows God’s laws, that is as offensive ot me as saying all Muslims are going to hell for being terrorists would be to you.

Please forgive me for the offense, as I’m not trying to be rude here.

The laws I am talking about are the practical day to day legal system prescribed in the Bible. There are crimes, with prescribed punishments. Leviticus 20 is pretty severe with the punishments. Do Christians adhere to these laws?

 

[Sister_Amy]

because he believes that Jesus was crucified and resurrected and that He is the Judge of his soul…in order for Ed to believe that Muhammad is a prophet, he must disbelieve in these things at the same time. He might if he is insane, but so far i believe he is an intelligent person

Well it looks like he’s still trying to work out all the differences.

 

[Sister_Amy]

can u prove that abraham or jesus was muslim?&who gave ur islam the authority to decide that who would be true christian?

Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah’s (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.

God has that authority.

The world Islam comes from a 3-letter root S-L-M. It means to submit. The word “salaam” means peace, but “islaam” means submitting to God, surrendering to God, obeying God, all to obtain peace (wholeness.)

A person who submits to God’s will is therefore a Muslim. The world Muslim is also from the same S-L-M root. The “mu” indicates that it’s a person who does the action, in this case “islam.” In English we use “er” at the end of a word (i.e., runner, speaker, submitter) for the same purpose. So a person who submits to God is a Muslim.

 

[ralphinal]

Why should anyone outside of the Vatican prefer Catholicism? I don’t even understand the question. Islam is a religion for all people, the last prophet (Muhammad) was sent to all of mankind. Anybody can be a Muslim.

Yes, but from what I can tell, there is a lot of Arab thought and understanding in the Koran that may or amy not translate into non-Arabic cultures. Part of this conclusion is based on Muslims telling me that you have to read Arabic to understand and think like an Arab to comprehend it.

There are not just the 10 Commandments. There are books of laws in the Bible. Some have to do with food, some have to do with sacrifice. Most have to do with behavior. I suggest you read them. Leviticus and Deuteronomy would be a good place to start.

I have read them. The vast majority of laws had to do with animal sacrafices. There are other laws, too. The Food laws were removed for us by God, so they no longer matter. I’ll get to the others later.

Please forgive me for the offense, as I’m not trying to be rude here.

I know. I long since forgave you.

The laws I am talking about are the practical day to day legal system prescribed in the Bible. There are crimes, with prescribed punishments. Leviticus 20 is pretty severe with the punishments. Do Christians adhere to these laws?

What do you get with an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth? A bunch of blind, toothless bitter people. The reason that forgiveness is a better way is that it proves the victim to be a better person AND it shows the attacker that violence is beneth them. Honestly, and I doubt that you would beleive it, it would eventually end violence, as people would see it for what it was. It is the same as the early Christians not fighting their persecuters and as a result, more people converted because the message was so strong. Now, society has to protect its members, so you get prisons and such, and that is tied to a Christian understanding as well. Hate does more damage to the carrier than the target and revenge never helps healing. Besides, God Himself reserves vengence. Now justice is not the same as revenge, but eye for an eye is not justice.

Pope John Paul II, after being shot, forgave his attacker. The state put him in prison, but John Paul actually asked for his release. Now, was there Justice? FOr the state, yes, he was convicted and served time. For John Paul? Yes. To him, asking God to fogive the man as well as forgiving him himself healed the damage done spiritually. WHat a beautiful thing.

There are places that cut the hands of theves off. Are there now no more theves because of it? No. Violence in return is not and never has been an effective deterant to crime. Period.

Not everyone has the level of faith needed to do this. No doubt about it. I am not sure that I do. I pray for it.

 

[inJESUS]

But you are missing the concept of the law.

am not…the law progresses…revenge, though instinctive, must not be the higher standard. God’s highter standard is in the OT and NT. To believe in Jesus and to belong to His body (the church) and to live in the graces of His covenant, you must live by the higher standards because only the higher standards fulfill you…so you must follow Jesus’ example, to strive for perfection and sainthood since our kingdom, Christ followers, is not in this world.

Let’s look at an example. Suppose a person starts a fight, and punches someone else. Gives him a black eye. The second wants justice due to him. Will you tell him that he should just turn the other cheek?

as hard as it seems, yes…this is not “impractical”…it might look as such on the spot, but when you assess it later, you will realize that not only you feel better emotionally since you overcome your anger (virtue), but you fell better physically as well, in addition to teaching the other a lesson…remember, we are supposed to be a community of saints striving for sainthood …if you retaliate, a fight will break and nobody knows the consequences…only by your attitude will the other learn to be as such, and we are supposed to be the salt of earth, salt that gives meaning…

According to what you just said, the victim has no recourse. What if his faith isn’t that strong? Don’t you think that unless you have a body of believers with rock-solid faith, you’re going to have people abusing the law?

Jesus was not againt civil law…and yes, i am talking about Christ’s community, about believers…i do not judge, but surely i will not judge someone who believes in Jesus like someone who doesnt…i know saints, and wish all Jesus’ body were as such…to reach this level, we must stick to this spirituality…if we open room to anger and hatred, the results are never fulfilling…and we must follow Jesus’ example…the “unpractical” example of not retaliating even to those hitting Him, which is victory, not loss to those who understand the true meaning of power.

that There must be punishment in this life as a deterrence for those people who don’t believe in the next. But your system doesn’t allow for justice. The assailant wins. He can beat people up and is never punished–they all have to turn the other cheek.

this is adressed in the civil law to those who have problem with God or teachings …give what to Caesar unto Caesar and what to God unto God…again, we are talking about our spiritual journey as humans and must ask ourselves what is the best in light of what Jesus taught and showed for our personal jouney and the journey of the community as one body.

This is also in Islam. A person can pay a sum of money for the damages of his crime instead of suffering reciprocal violence. But only if the victim is okay with that.

correct, but a person can literally ask for you eye in retaliation, something not taught neither in OT nor NT…Islam gives you all kind of choices, many of them lead to disasters…Jesus gave us the best choice to our emotional and physical well being as people whose kingdom is not of this world and who must strive for sainthood…hard indeed, but no peace matches it…

But not everybody is at that level.

we are taught to reach that level through the power of the Holy Spirit…

But revenge does not imply hatred. What we are talking about is justice.

revenge is surely not the epitomy of peace and love…revenge might lead to disasters and further hatred…love is free…hard? you bet but who said following Jesus is easy? who said that linving in this world yet not for this world is easy? but this is how the world will know that we are the people of the Eternal Word.

 

[inJESUS]

Woe to those who write the book with their own hands, and then say “This is from Allah.”

the Talmud is written by men, without an angel dictating it…yet Muhammad quoted it as God’s words…do not forget that Jesus said it before Muhammad, but not about the corruption of God’s Word but corruption of its meaning by legalists…Jesus never ever questionned God’s words but REPEATED that not word will be deleted or changes unless everything is accomplished…why should i believe someone who oppses both OT and NT which repeat many times that God’s Word is pure gold standing forever?

It isn’t God’s words which are corrupt. It is men who have forgotten, lost, misinterpreted, and distorted God’s word, and then added their own.

which means men corrupted God’s Word hence God’s word is corrupt, something denied by God on the tongue of many of his prophets…God, it is God, Amy, not a kid. We are talking about the Supreme Sovereign, the all-powerful and Just, the Creator who overthrows the plans of the wicked…not about a moody kid…God will not allow humans to corrupt His words yet leave the teachings that His words are pure gold that stand forver…we are not talking about a psycho…

You believe that Jesus “fulfilled” the law, and so you don’t have to follow all the Laws of Moses. The Laws of Moses predate “Pharisee legalism,” so you can’t say that’s all you abandoned.

i said we abandonned legalism, and the Mosaic law fulfilled by Jesus, so we follow it in light of the fulfillment, not in light of what were shadow of what is to come…we observe all the rest. Why follow in the light of what was followed before Jesus when Jesus came? shouldn’t we follow it in light of the filfillment otherwise we’d be denying its fulfilment.

Christians do not follow the Laws of Moses. They believe that the coming of Jesus makes it unnecessary for them to do that. This is exactly what abrogation is.

nop, Jewish Christians can still follow the Law, but in light and meaning of Jesus’ fulfillment, not according to how it was followed before Jesus…no abrogation but fulfillment of a promise that joins both Jews (who can follow the Law in light of Jesus) and getiles who do not have to since they never were Jews nor did they ever follow the Mosaic Law…

The Qur’an abrogates what came before it, in the sense of law. Some laws still apply, but some do not.

the Quran abrogates itself…it is the orders in the Quran that changed and people accused Muhammad of changing his mind in a fortnight about his own words…God never said that the Messianic covenat will be abrogated, but that it will last for ever. So God already gave a covenant and already said the Messianic Covenant is the one to be followed forver for all humankind… He did not say what you wrote and you are opposing, again, both OT and NT…

Do you? And isn’t it you who pick and choose without theological basis?

nop, the theological argument is all over the Bible. Old Covenant, New Covenant, fulfillment of a promise to the chosen ones and extending it to humanking with universal laws . But following the law by choosing camel and not pork, choosing circumcision but not on the 8th day, returning a woman to her first husband only after sleeping with another man are breaking the law without any theological argument…in fact, the third example is called a sin in the Bible and the first one is not only breaking the law, but renders its meaning ridiculous by choosing an animal over another one…and the first one is simply dismissing a law for no reason as if Allah suddenly had a problem with the 8thday…

Because for Muslims, the theological basis is God’s Revelation, the Qur’an. Doesn’t the Creator know what He created?

circular reasoning not backed up by God’s words…our theological reasons are backed up in light of God who declared the Messianic covenant to be followed forever in the OT, which joins both Jews and gentile and which fulfills many of the old laws that is why it is a new one.

 

[morning_star777]

actually i am totally confusued with this thread. because how is it possible that in the same time JESUS is GOD&also NOT GOD!.because if bible is GOD’S word then JESUS is GOD(of course jesus is GOD ).and if Quran is also GOD’S word then JESUS is not GOD!so if i will claim that i am a man and in the same time i am a CAT(i gave cat’s example because cat is my pet animal )won’t it be a funny thing?

 

[inJESUS]

There are not just the 10 Commandments. There are books of laws in the Bible. Some have to do with food, some have to do with sacrifice. Most have to do with behavior. I suggest you read them. Leviticus and Deuteronomy would be a good place to start

some of these laws are what makes a Jew, a Jew.

Amy, does your book teach that in order to follow Jesus, you must be a Jew? if no, why are you asking us to be Jews? if yes, why aren’t you following them?

 

[inJESUS]

if i will think that i am a man and in the same time i am a CAT won’t it be a funny thing?

if it is you, indeed it would be funny…but if it God who says one thing and much later on condemns you for believing in it, then here is the tragedy for those who really think the second teaching’s source is God…

 

[morning_star777]

if it is you, indeed it would be funny…but if it God who says one thing and much later on condemns you for believing in it, then here is the tragedy for those who really think the second teaching’s source is God…

yes my brother,i agree with you.who will believe that at 1st god taught us that jesus is his son&later condemn us for believing in his own teaching then truely it is a tragedy

 

[hamba2han]

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation." (Genesis 17:20)

**“What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?” **(Deuteronomy 4:7-8)

How does God measure the "greatness’’ of a nation?

Do Christians even have a clue?

Muslims certainly have little doubt as to what the above Biblical verses mean since the definition of a “great nation” according to what God Himself says in Deuteronomy 4:7-8 above is just so very clear.

Do Christians honestly believe that God will refer to a nation that will go against His Commands as a “great nation”?

 

[morning_star777]

yes my brother,i agree with you.who will believe that at 1st god taught us that jesus is his son&later condemn us for believing in his own teaching then truely it is a tragedy

so either bible or quran is the word of god.so if bible is the word of god then quran can’t be the word of god.both can’t be true in the same time.if any1 believe that both bible&quran is god’s word then its a terrible mistake.

 

[inJESUS]

Hamba2han, Angelos already answered your post. Add to it that God will never mislead a nation by giving them twisted teachings…we do not believe Ishmael was a prophet, but at least we do not believe God mislead his nation by a book He sent…not to add that Arabs existed before Ishmael…too many points you have to deal with theologically and historically before misinterpreting some passages…

 

[Sister_Amy]

some of these laws are what makes a Jew, a Jew.

Amy, does your book teach that in order to follow Jesus, you must be a Jew? if no, why are you asking us to be Jews? if yes, why aren’t you following them?

Jesus was sent to the Jews. He said so himself, according to your Bible. He said he was sent to the lost sheep of the children of Israel, or something to that effect. And he said that he did not come to abolish the law.

You can’t follow Jesus without also following his religion. He was Jewish by race, and he called people to the same as the prophets who came before him.

But while Jesus was sent to the Jews, Muhammad was sent to ALL of mankind. I’m asking you to be Muslims.