Jesus vs Muhammad

[RockyRoad]

You say that Moses (pbuh) did not make war on polytheists??

Kindly refer back to Deuteronomy 7:1-5 and pay particular attention to the part at the end which I will highlight:

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations – the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you – and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire.

If they were not polytheists, then what faith were they practicing?

One of the things that I find amazing about muslims…hamba…is that you label the bible corrupt but use it when it comes to supporting what you believe. If you want to use the bible…then use it all. Jesus Christ is God. Moe was just a misguided man with an agenda.

 

[rikkk1958]

This whole discussion boils down to what is considered ‘good’ and what is considered ‘evil’ according to the moral guidelines which we believe in and follow.

This is a reminder both to myself and also to everyone here:

For Muslims, the Truth comes only from Allah and is therefore good and conversely falsehood is evil.

Whereas the Christian approach towards the Truth would be → “good” must be the Truth and “evil” must be falsehood.

Unfortunately, Christians determine what is ‘good’ and what is ‘evil’ by allowing the Church to decide for them.

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). … Al-Qur’an, 009.031

Always remember folks that ONLY the Master of the Day of Judgment can save us from the Hell-fire, NOT the Magisterium of the Church.

Therefore, when it comes to the enormously important matter of saving our own souls, shouldn’t we be listening to our Creator alone and no one else?

And how do we listen to Him alone?.. For Muslims, this is actually not difficult at all because we just need to read the ‘Message’ that he has sent down to all of humankind.

However for Christians, I would suggest that they first decide on matters of morality by referring to the teachings found in the Bible… and by doing this, God-willing, they will quickly realise that there is NOTHING that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did which can be considered immoral according to the teachings of the Bible.

Christians should NOT decide on matters of morality by referring only to what the Church is telling them and which is often completely at odds with the moral teachings taught in the Bible.

First of all, I think you want to stay away from the thread. What you have said is true, that no one can judge who gets into the Kigdom of God, only God himself. The point you miss is, Muhammed deceived you for listening to his own self revelation, the Quran.

Many times, arguments are basically the differences between the Quran and the Holy Bible, and you and I knows that the Quran was never written if not for Muhammed who got to learn the story of the Bible, invented the encounter with an angel who did not completely fit the description of Angel Gabriel, and forced himself to the minds of his followers.

I think this thread is not hate. Qwerk wants to know the truth about Muhammed because he deceived too many and it keeps growing everyday. Those who are misleads are going further from the truth. Quran may want Muslims to follow God but the thing is it has to change or amend its scriptures. The ambiguities in its text are meant to many interpretations that Muslims do not even know how to follow.

There is no question that the Holy Bible is the true story of God. This is the source of Muhammed’s Quran but obviously he was not fit to teach to his followers because, first of all he was illiterate. The pride of the Arabs made his teachings more adaptable because of their hatred to the Jews and Christians. Obviously the Arabs at that time did not fully know that humanity is not perfect. Only the Church and the Holy Bible is perfect.

 

[hamba2han]

One of the things that I find amazing about muslims…hamba…is that you label the bible corrupt but use it when it comes to supporting what you believe. If you want to use the bible…then use it all. Jesus Christ is God. Moe was just a misguided man with an agenda.

The point that I was making is that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did NOT do anything that can be considered “immoral” according to the teachings of the Bible.

Therefore, it is not Muslims but rather it is Christians who disparage against the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who are NOT following the teachings of the Bible on morality.

 

[RockyRoad]

The point that I was making is that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did NOT do anything that can be considered “immoral” according to the teachings of the Bible.

Therefore, it is not Muslims but rather it is Christians who disparage against the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who are NOT following the teachings of the Bible on morality.

We disparage against mohammad because he lied about Christ. Either through ignorance, deceipt, being mislead by the evil one. Jesus is God…the Word Made Flesh.

In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.

 

[algebra]

If they were not polytheists, then what faith were they practicing?

The Hebrew Bible does not explicitly deny the existence of “other” gods.

In fact, it implicitly supports the idea, by suggesting that the Hebrews should only worship “YHWH” and no other god, or the gods of other nations.

This is vastly different from islam that explicitly denies the existence of other gods.

In reality, the Hebrews were being told that they should worship their own tribal god, and if they worshipped any god of another tribe, then they were angering YHWH.

As well, when the Hebrews were being assured that they would win the war against the stronger nations, they were actually being assured that their god was the most powerful of all the gods.

As you can see, polytheism and monotheism is a later invention of the Hebrews, possibly around the time Ezra reconstructed the texts of the Tanakh.

I am a jew, so I know these things.

 

[RockyRoad]

The Hebrew Bible does not explicitly deny the existence of “other” gods.

In fact, it implicitly supports the idea, by suggesting that the Hebrews should only worship “YHWH” and no other god, or the gods of other nations.

This is vastly different from islam that explicitly denies the existence of other gods.

In reality, the Hebrews were being told that they should worship their own tribal god, and if they worshipped any god of another tribe, then they were angering YHWH.

As well, when the Hebrews were being assured that they would win the war against the stronger nations, they were actually being assured that their god was the most powerful of all the gods.

As you can see, polytheism and monotheism is a later invention of the Hebrews, possibly around the time Ezra reconstructed the texts of the Tanakh.

I am a jew, so I know these things.

Very good point!

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

 

[hamba2han]

The Hebrew Bible does not explicitly deny the existence of “other” gods.

In fact, it implicitly supports the idea, by suggesting that the Hebrews should only worship “YHWH” and no other god, or the gods of other nations.

This is vastly different from islam that explicitly denies the existence of other gods.

In reality, the Hebrews were being told that they should worship their own tribal god, and if they worshipped any god of another tribe, then they were angering YHWH.

As well, when the Hebrews were being assured that they would win the war against the stronger nations, they were actually being assured that their god was the most powerful of all the gods.

As you can see, polytheism and monotheism is a later invention of the Hebrews, possibly around the time Ezra reconstructed the texts of the Tanakh.

I am a jew, so I know these things.

Reading your post reminded me of a talk by Ahmad Deedat in which he related how some Jews would respond whenever he asked them what is the Jewish ‘kalimah’ i.e. declaration of faith.

And their answer → I am not sure but my wife would know.

I am curious, would you know what is the Jewish ‘kalimah’?

 

[algebra]

I am curious, would you know what is the Jewish ‘kalimah’?

shema yisrael adonai eloheinu adonai echad baruch shem kavod malchuto le’olam vaed

 

[qwerk]

Prophet Moses (pbuh) waged Jihad to punish people who were guilty of deliberately denying the Truth. A study of the Old Testament shows that the Jihad he waged was of two forms. One form of Jihad was that nations who subscribed to polytheism were to be put to death in all cases, while another form was that some nations were spared in case they agreed to remain subservient.

The following verses depict the first form of Jihad:

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations – the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you – and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. … (Deuteronomy 7:1-5)

The following verses depict the second form of Jihad:

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labour and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, and children, the livestock and everything else in the city you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. … (Deuteronomy, 20:10-15)

A Prophet Like Unto Moses
Also, in the Bible, in Deutoronomny, we have the words of Moses who reports that God told him that He would raise up a prophet from AMONG THE BROTHERS OF THE ISRAELITES, like Moses.

"And the Lord said onto me, they have well spoken that which they have spoken, I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." … (Deuteronomy 18:17-18)

And so then dear Christian friends → Did Jesus (pbuh) condemn and disassociated himself from the concept of Jihad which was practiced by Moses (pbuh)?

If you say ‘YES’, then this alone would disqualify him from being the promised “Prophet like unto Moses”, don’t you agree?

On the other hand, if your answer is ‘NO’, then is there a rational reason why you should be disparaging against the Jihad waged by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?

If you want to talk about Moses then you need to refer to the Bible. I don’t recognize the Quran as a source for the Old Testament prophets since all the stories are really screwed up. I am sure if you have a valid point you can find it from the Old Testament. And conversely if your point is not valid then you won’t find it in the Old Testament.

All Muhammad did here was to use Moses as an excuse to kill people because they were not Muslims or believed in his idea of a God, Allah. And I am surprised you will admit that Jihad is indeed about that - killing people for that reason.

 

[qwerk]

The point that I was making is that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did NOT do anything that can be considered “immoral” according to the teachings of the Bible.

Therefore, it is not Muslims but rather it is Christians who disparage against the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who are NOT following the teachings of the Bible on morality.

Well, yeah he did. He did a whole host of things that went directly against the teachings of the 10 Commandments and Jesus who followed.

-He tried to replace YHWH with Allah, his alter ego. He used to preach among all the gods and goddesses at the kabaa. Then he destroyed all the statues and kept Allah. He almost kept his three daughters which are also in the Quran, but he ended out deleting them. Basically, Allah is nothing more than whatever Muhammad needed at the time to help him get what he wanted. Whether it be getting people killed, stealing their booty and taking their women and children as slaves, or whatever his need at the time was.
-He took wives killed their husbands and sons and brothers and fathers, and raped them that same day. He took his son’s wife. He took a child (and who knows how many other children as slaves).
-He stole people’s belongings and would even torture people if he got hint that they didn’t hand all their belongings over to him. He tortured a man for stealing camels that he himself stole.
-He lied and told his followers to lie if it guaranteed they would win.

Matt 5: 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (and it doesn’t say it is ok to lie to advance islam)
1 John 2:22 Who is the Liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Messiah. Such a man is the Antichrist—he denies the Father (God) and the Son (Jesus). Luke 16:16 The Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptist.

 

[hamba2han]

shema yisrael adonai eloheinu adonai echad baruch shem kavod malchuto le’olam vaed

Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad - Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is One

Since this is indeed the Jewish ‘kalimah’, then how on earth can you say that “polytheism and monotheism is a later invention of the Hebrews, possibly around the time Ezra reconstructed the texts of the Tanakh”?

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

Any fatwa issued MUST be in accordance with the Qur’an and the Sunnah in order for it to stand a chance of being accepted.

A “fatwa” which does not meet this requirement will immediately be rejected by knowledgeable Muslims.

“But because you have no central authority or magisterium those of weaker minds can be misled by Satan and follow a Fatwa which leads them to killing innocents”

“If you had a Caliph or some other High Mullah then you could prevent a bad Fatwa and prevent these otherwise good, albeit ignorant, Muslims from blowing themselves and others up in the name of Allah.”

 

[algebra]

“But because you have no central authority or magisterium those of weaker minds can be misled by Satan and follow a Fatwa which leads them to killing innocents”

“If you had a Caliph or some other High Mullah then you could prevent a bad Fatwa and prevent these otherwise good, albeit ignorant, Muslims from blowing themselves and others up in the name of Allah.”

Nonsense, since the message is inherently flawed no True interpretation can be garnered from it.

 

[algebra]

Since this is indeed the Jewish ‘kalimah’, then how on earth can you say that “polytheism and monotheism is a later invention of the Hebrews, possibly around the time Ezra reconstructed the texts of the Tanakh”?

Because sh’ma yisroel is talking about worshipping “ONLY” YHWH, it does not explicitly or implicitly deny the existence of other deities.

In essence what the Sh’ma is to be understood as follows, Everyone take note that I take upon myself the yoke of worshipping only YHWH alone with none other.

So the explicit portion is that for Israel, there is only one God.

The implicit portion is that we cannot worship YHWH and Baal, because in that case we would NOT be worshipping YHWH.

Get it?

So the sh’ma is not a statement on monotheism, but rather a statement of commitment to YHWH and no other.

As I stated the Torah does not deny the existence of other deities, it just explicitly forbids jews from worshipping other deities.

Jews ofcourse have pondered sh’ma for ages, and around the time of Ezra basically concluded that in fact there were no other Gods - other than YHWH.

This ofcourse is the same position as islam, however, bear in mind that that was not the case in the Torah, just a development from the scholarship of the sages.

 

[qwerk]

“But because you have no central authority or magisterium those of weaker minds can be misled by Satan and follow a Fatwa which leads them to killing innocents”

“If you had a Caliph or some other High Mullah then you could prevent a bad Fatwa and prevent these otherwise good, albeit ignorant, Muslims from blowing themselves and others up in the name of Allah.”

Oops, not so fast in assuming that a caliph is a good thing. And your definition of a good fatwa is in accordance with their laws based on the Quran and Sunnah.

Here are some quotes from the Reliance of the Traveller, the book of Sharia laws. I will post the number of the law if you or someone else doesn’t have this book they can just look at the law in a different book,

o8.4 There is no expiation (no act of atonement, or punishment) for killing someone who has left islam, a highwayman or a convicted married adulterer, even when somone besides the caliph kills him.

O8.8 & O8.9 reveal the truth: The caliph makes war on Jews…fights all other peoples until they become Muslim. War in Islam is automatic and continuous until the last day or total world conquest, which ever comes first.

O9.8
What does the caliph do as a regular and constant agenda item? He makes war on Jews & Christians and fights all other people until they become Muslim. Umdat as-Salik O9.8 it says here:

The caliph (o25) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4) -which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral religions) (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High, “Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled” (Koran 9.29)

O9.9
The caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim (O: because they are not a people with a Book,…

There are more quotes but you get the idea. Here is a caliph following the law from the Hadith:

Caliph Umar’s general told the Persians:
…Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:– “Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master.”… Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386

 

[MOCatholic]

Based on the OT versus quoted, wouldn’t someone “like Moses” then have mighty miracles supporting his ministry? Wouldn’t also that person have prophetic utterances given by God that promised future events (such as the specific victories of the Jews against specific peoples in a specific area promised by God)?

Someone who disclaims miracles and only attributes God’s actions in battle after the fact (God with them in a win and God punishing them in a loss) is certainly nothing like Moses, and thus fails the test given so far in this thread.

 

[algebra]

There are certain prophecys in the Quran which might actually be considered valid by the standards of the Bible.

However, let us not put too much stock in prophecy, after all, even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day.

To be honest the quran as a document, can be interpretted in so many ways as to justify any position depending on what you wish to justify.

It is because of this that and the explicit and compelling ease of Tawheed that muslims will never convert to christianity.

Inherently it teaches the “logical” flaws of christianity (the Trinity being a Truth that cannot be explained logically - is seen as a flaw within islam), so muslims are better prepared for interreligious discussions with christians than christians themselves are.

As a result christians usually focus on ad hominem attacks against Mohammed.

Whilst the attacks against Mohammed are simply stating what is true, it does not address according to muslims the inherent flaws that they point out in christianity.

To do that one must focus on what they see as a flaw, and address that issue.

For example, the Trinity is seen as a huge flaw, along with that the other point that hamba pointed out, christians doing away with the law.

All these are answered well in the Bible, and the Traditions of the church.

The Trinity is a divine mystery, in much the same way that Allah remains a divine mystery for muslims.

Ask them what Allah is and they will give you 99 attributes of Allah.

However this tells you nothing about Allah per se other than the superlatives (which are also contradictory)

In reality Allah is as much a mystery to them, as the Trinity is to us.

The law - well that one is really simple - Jesus said he came to pay for the sins of man - therefore my sins are paid for, and yes not observing the law is sinful - but its been paid for already.

Besides no one can really follow all the laws - and hence the institution of sacrifice.

 

[seraphime2008]

You said it better Algebra, all the things I wanted to point out.

 

[qwerk]

There are certain prophecys in the Quran which might actually be considered valid by the standards of the Bible.

What are they, please provide sources.

However, let us not put too much stock in prophecy, after all, even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day.

To be honest the quran as a document, can be interpretted in so many ways as to justify any position depending on what you wish to justify.

They have a term for this, it is called Duality. The Meccan verses were abrogated by one of 4 ways to degrees by the Medina, violent verses.

It is because of this that and the explicit and compelling ease of Tawheed that muslims will never convert to christianity.

The number of people converting to Christianity are on the rise. The problem is that Muslim countries are in denial so they don’t count them. The other problem of the ones who leave Islam has to do with how apostates are treated under Sharia laws. They can be killed or exiled. They are more often than not shunned by their family. Walid Shoebat, and Moujab Hasan, have admitted they are shunned and had to leave family and friends behind and were disinherited.

Inherently it teaches the “logical” flaws of christianity (the Trinity being a Truth that cannot be explained logically - is seen as a flaw within islam), so muslims are better prepared for interreligious discussions with christians than christians themselves are.

As a result christians usually focus on ad hominem attacks against Mohammed.

I have no problem tacking the problems with explaining the Trinity. I brought up the Jesus vs Muhammad because too many of our own don’t know the differences. They have stated even on this thread that Muhammad was an ok guy. I have asked them to provide their source and am still waiting. A Muslim has tried to provide some sources, but that is just the usual stuff from Muslims. They tell us about the early years of Muhammad but those were abrogated by the violent years like I stated above. And I expect that from them. I don’t expect statements like that from our own if they have done any reading at all.

I find that the Christians are very bothered by discussing Muhammad. They believe they are under the rule of Sharia laws and should not discuss him. Sharia laws tell us that non-Muslims should not criticize Muhammad. There are no laws to protect them if they do so. Why do you think Muslims had riots, killed people and destroyed churches after the cartoons, or when Geert Wilders or Theo Van Gogh or Hirsi Ali, and a whole host of others have to have body guards? Because they think that even in our lands we should be following Sharia laws.

I refuse to follow their laws. I am not a Muslim, but some behave as if they are already subjugated by Islam and a dhimmi.

Whilst the attacks against Mohammed are simply stating what is true, it does not address according to muslims the inherent flaws that they point out in christianity.

To do that one must focus on what they see as a flaw, and address that issue.

For example, the Trinity is seen as a huge flaw, along with that the other point that hamba pointed out, christians doing away with the law.

So what? They think everything is flawed except for Islam.

All these are answered well in the Bible, and the Traditions of the church.

The Trinity is a divine mystery, in much the same way that Allah remains a divine mystery for muslims.

Ask them what Allah is and they will give you 99 attributes of Allah.

However this tells you nothing about Allah per se other than the superlatives (which are also contradictory)

In reality Allah is as much a mystery to them, as the Trinity is to us.

The law - well that one is really simple - Jesus said he came to pay for the sins of man - therefore my sins are paid for, and yes not observing the law is sinful - but its been paid for already.

Besides no one can really follow all the laws - and hence the institution of sacrifice.

Good point. Most Muslims don’t read their Quran let alone any of their Hadith or the Sira. They got out of Islam what their Imam or cleric tell them.

All they have to do is read and they are not supposed to because they are not to question.

But like I said above, the biggest reason why I wrote what I did is for our own, not the Muslims. I am an American so anyone can respond and say what they want. But I hope that more people would find out for themselves what Muhammad was and ‘a good guy’ is not one of those things. Not even close.

 

[qwerk]

One more thing about the Trinity. Even if it is a mystery to them, they have no right to tell others what to believe in because they are unable to grasp it. They call us names (one of many) such as polytheists and polytheists are the ones that they are told are kafir who are the greatest of sinners, and the enemies of Islam. They also consider Hindus polytheists.

The Quran defines the kafir and says that the kafir is:
Hated- 40:35 They who dispute the signs of Allah [kafirs] without authority having reached them are greatly hated by Allah and the believers. So Allah seals up every arrogant, disdainful heart. and despised by Allah.

Mocked- 83:34 On that day the faithful will mock the kafirs, while they sit on bridal couches and watch them. Should not the kafirs be paid back for what they did?

Punished- 25:77 Say to the kafirs: My Lord does not care for you or your prayers. You have rejected the truth, so sooner or later, a punishment will come.

Beheaded- 47:4 When you encounter the kafirs on the battlefield, cut off their heads until you have thor-oughly defeated them and then take the prisoners and tie them up firmly.

Confused- 6:25 Some among them listen to you [Mohammed], but We have cast veils over their [kafirs] hearts and a heaviness to their ears so that they cannot understand our signs [the Koran].

Plotted against- 86:15 They plot and scheme against you [Mohammed], and I plot and scheme against them. Therefore, deal calmly with the kafirs and leave them alone for a while.

Terrorized- 8:12 Then your Lord spoke to His angels and said, “I will be with you. Give strength to the believers. I will send terror into the kafirs’ hearts, cut off their heads and even the tips of their fin-gers!”

Annihilated- 6:45 So the kafirs were annihilated. All praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

Killed- 4:91 If they do not keep away from you or offer you peace or withdraw their hostilities, then seize them and kill them wherever they are. We give you complete authority over them.

Crucified- 5:33 The only reward for those who war against Allah and His messengers and strive to com-mit mischief on the earth is that they will be slain or crucified, have their alternate hands and feet cut off, or be banished from the land. This will be their disgrace in this world, and a great torment shall be theirs in the next except those who repent before you overpower them. Know that Allah is forgiving and merciful.

Made war on- 9:29 Make war on those who have received the Scriptures [Jews and Christians] but do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day. They do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden. The Christians and Jews do not follow the religion of truth until they submit and pay the poll tax [jizya], and they are humiliated.