Jesus vs Muhammad

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Not really true, they call us mushriks and jahils but we are not kafirs.

Kafir comes from kufr, which means literally to cover, its the covering of seeds that a farmer sows by dust.

kufr figuratively means to cover the Truth, which means one has to accept and acknowledge the truth in the first place.

Hindus, christians and jews - basically all non-muslims are either mushriks (polytheists) or jahils (ignorants), whilst these are not positive attibutes - they are not a negative as kaafir.

Kaafir is reserved for those who accept islam, and then reject it after accepting it.

The penalty for a kaafir is death.
 
One more thing about the Trinity. Even if it is a mystery to them, they have no right to tell others what to believe in because they are unable to grasp it.
In all honesty, we cannot grasp divine reality either, the Trinity is a divine mystery.

The point I am trying to make here is that the nature of Allah (in the 99 divine attributes) is as much a mystery to muslims as the Trinity is to us.

Al-Ghafoor=The All Forgiving vs Al-Adl=The Just

Al-Muntaqim=The Avenger vs Al-Afuw=The Pardoner

Az-Zaarr=The Distresser vs Al-Wali=The Protecting Friend

To Hamba, my freind, jews have no problem accepting a non-jew as a prophet.

In the past we have accepted many non-jews as prophets.

However, Mohammed is not one of them because he was a king who claimed to be a prophet.

In our history, we do not have kings who are prophets.

Kings lead the nations, prophets speak out against Kings who are corrupt - David and Nathan.
 
In all honesty, we cannot grasp divine reality either, the Trinity is a divine mystery.

The point I am trying to make here is that the nature of Allah (in the 99 divine attributes) is as much a mystery to muslims as the Trinity is to us.

Al-Ghafoor=The All Forgiving vs Al-Adl=The Just

Al-Muntaqim=The Avenger vs Al-Afuw=The Pardoner

Az-Zaarr=The Distresser vs Al-Wali=The Protecting Friend

To Hamba, my freind, jews have no problem accepting a non-jew as a prophet.

In the past we have accepted many non-jews as prophets.

However, Mohammed is not one of them because he was a king who claimed to be a prophet.

In our history, we do not have kings who are prophets.

Kings lead the nations, prophets speak out against Kings who are corrupt - David and Nathan.
It doesn’t matter who does or does not grasp the Trinity. It isn’t for Muslims to tell us that we are wrong. They can say it is wrong for them, but not for anyone else. That is what is in their laws and in their agenda towards us. Just like I can write and say that Islam is wrong for so many reasons, it still isn’t me to kill someone because they are not believing in the Trinity. Yes, the Jihadists who kill are just following the Quran and Sharia laws. I have written them on a thread called ‘Jihad and its real meaning’. What the striving in Allah’s way means for us is subjugation or death if we don’t want to be a Muslim. We allow others to be whatever they want, that is not so under Sharia laws.

As for the post about Kufir - sorry, but it is in their texts and especially in their Sharia laws. Yes, they call us many names and whether it is our name ‘polytheist’ or mushrikin - it is still the same. Name calling is a common thing when one wants to denigrate someone, to make them less and to make oneself feel superior to another. It makes waging Jihad against them easier, I suppose. Christians and the Jews are the apes and pigs - that is also in the Quran as I suppose you know.

As for the mystery of Allah it isn’t that much of a mystery to me or anyone that I know who has put some time into reading Islamic texts. Since they are not supposed to question, and they don’t read their own texts, I suppose that many things are a mystery to them.

Allah is Muhammad’s alter ego. There is a history behind Allah and his pagan religion but when it all comes down to what Allah is in the Quran and Islam, it was nothing more than a way for Muhammad to have his way. When the peaceful preaching didn’t work, Allah became angry and Muhammad used it to justify his bloodlust - and lusts for other things such as women, children, booty, food, etc.

Muhammad wasn’t a king, he was a warlord. A self-appointed leader yes, but not royalty in any sense of the word.
 
Not really true, they call us mushriks and jahils but we are not kafirs.

Kafir comes from kufr, which means literally to cover, its the covering of seeds that a farmer sows by dust.

kufr figuratively means to cover the Truth, which means one has to accept and acknowledge the truth in the first place.

Hindus, christians and jews - basically all non-muslims are either mushriks (polytheists) or jahils (ignorants), whilst these are not positive attibutes - they are not a negative as kaafir.

Kaafir is reserved for those who accept islam, and then reject it after accepting it.

The penalty for a kaafir is death.
Kufir is also unbelievers, the worst of sinners. Don’t whitewash it. The Quran divides us up into two categories - believers and unbelievers. I won’t go into hypocrites right now, since they are considered unbelievers and have the same considerations that the unbelievers have.

Unbelivers are kafir. It is more of a political term instead of a religious term. Polytheist and infidel are more religious terms. But everyone who is not a believer is a Kafir. Kafir is the worst of sinners and I already stated what can be done to them. This applies to anyone and if they accept subjugation then they have the protection of their Muslim masters unless they stop paying the Jizya. But they have few rights. One being that they can retain their religion with a great deal of restrictions. If a Muslim does something to them or their family the subjugated one has no recourse and if they do something to a Muslim then all the things I mentioned in the previous post about Kafir can be done to the subjugated one.

I think we need to look at Islam through their eyes and not with all the made up words that the West, or Kafir, define. No matter what you want to define Kafir to mean the end is still the same if we allow Islam to rule - death or subjugation.

The website politicalislam.com did some statistical study and if you remove the parts about Kafir, there would only be about 39% of the Quran left. It is mostly hateful and cruel stuff against us. I don’t know anyone who would be allowed to write such a book detailing how people should be treated so cruely and have the populations of the world not be outraged, but we allow it from the Quran.

By the way, that is why no zakat is to go to an unbeliever. They are considered the worst of sinners and it is no accident that is a part of Sharia laws.
 
For anyone who doubts the truth of the Qur’anic verse which I have quoted which states that Christians have made their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God Almighty, then the following is just one example of how they have followed their religious leaders in declaring something which is ‘bad’ in the eyes of the Lord into something which the Church has permitted i.e. something which is totally at odds with what was taught and practiced by Prophet Jesus (pbuh):

Pork

Blood
But there are Christians who don’t eat those…
 
Because sh’ma yisroel is talking about worshipping “ONLY” YHWH, it does not explicitly or implicitly deny the existence of other deities.

In essence what the Sh’ma is to be understood as follows, Everyone take note that I take upon myself the yoke of worshipping only YHWH alone with none other.

So the explicit portion is that for Israel, there is only one God.

The implicit portion is that we cannot worship YHWH and Baal, because in that case we would NOT be worshipping YHWH.

Get it?

So the sh’ma is not a statement on monotheism, but rather a statement of commitment to YHWH and no other.

As I stated the Torah does not deny the existence of other deities, it just explicitly forbids jews from worshipping other deities.

Jews ofcourse have pondered sh’ma for ages, and around the time of Ezra basically concluded that in fact there were no other Gods - other than YHWH.

This ofcourse is the same position as islam, however, bear in mind that that was not the case in the Torah, just a development from the scholarship of the sages.
Monotheism is the worship of only One Deity.

Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad - Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is One

Just like the Muslim kalimah i.e. statement of belief, the above Jewish ‘kalimah’ is as CLEAR a statement of monotheism as it can get.

It is the bedrock of anyone’s faith and so it absolutely CANNOT be the subject of dispute or doubt.
 
Monotheism is the worship of only One Deity.

Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad - Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is One

Just like the Muslim kalimah i.e. statement of belief, the above Jewish ‘kalimah’ is as CLEAR a statement of monotheism as it can get.

It is the bedrock of anyone’s faith and so it absolutely CANNOT be the subject of dispute or doubt.
Samaritans were also “Monotheists”, but Jesus told them in John 4:22:
“You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.”

So not anyone who claims to be a monotheist is truly worshipping the true God.
 
Monotheism is the worship of only One Deity.
You are ignoring an important point.

Judaism does not deny the existence of other gods.

Islam explicitly denies other gods.

Judaism focuses on the worship of 1 god - YHWH.

Islam says there IS only 1 god - Allah.

So what is the point of this anyway.

Well if you are a jew - you are unconcerned with people who worship BAAL, and if they do not bother you and dont turn you from YHWH, then they are not your problem.

This is very true for the Torah.

However, if you are muslim, you believe that the worship of Baal is an affront to the only God in existence - your God, and therefore his creations (non-muslims) are offending him, and therefore you are obligated to fight against them to correct their error - either verbally or physically.

Therefore your entire comparison of the “jihads” of Moses and Mohammed are completely spurious.

Moses never fought polytheists - because YHWH was not concerned with what non hebrews did.

Mohammed fought polytheists because he believed he was doing god a favour.

Do you see the difference?
 
For anyone who doubts the truth of the Qur’anic verse which I have quoted which states that Christians have made their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God Almighty, then the following is just one example of how they have followed their religious leaders in declaring something which is ‘bad’ in the eyes of the Lord into something which the Church has permitted i.e. something which is totally at odds with what was taught and practiced by Prophet Jesus (pbuh):

Pork

Jesus did not eat pork
. He followed the laws of Moses and he did not eat pork. In Leviticus 11:7-8, “7 And the swine, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8Of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch; they are unclean to you.” Jesus’ only dealing with pigs was his permission to the unclean spirits which were possessing a man to enter them. When they entered the herd of pigs, they ran into the water and drowned. However, most people who call themselves Christians today not only eat pork, they love it so much that they have made pigs the subject of nursery rhymes [e.g. This little piggy went to market…] and children’s stories [e.g. The Three Little Pigs]. Porky Pig is a very popular cartoon character and recently a full-length feature movie was made about a pig called “Babe”. Thus, it may be said that those who call themselves followers of Christ are not in fact following the way of Christ.
Code:
        In Islamic law, the prohibition of pork and its products has been strictly maintained from the time of Prophet Muhammad (e) until today. In the Qur’aan, Chapter al-Baqarah (2):173, God says:
}إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَيْتَةَ وَالدَّمَ وَلَحْمَ الْخِنْزِيرِ وَمَا أُهِلَّ بِهِ لِغَيْرِ اللهِ فَمَنِ اضْطُرَّ غَيْرَ بَاغٍ وَلاَ عَادٍ فَلاَ إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ إِنَّ اللهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ {

“He has only forbidden you animals which die of themselves, blood, swine and animals sacrificed for others besides Allaah. But if one is forced by necessity and not wilful disobedience nor transgression, then there is no sin on him. Truly, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

Blood


Jesus also did not eat anything containing blood, nor did he eat blood. God is recorded as having instructed Prophet Moses in the Torah, Deuteronomy 12:16, “Only you shall not eat the blood; you shall pour it upon the earth like water,” and in Leviticus 19:26, “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not practice augury or witchcraft.” This prohibition has been preserved in the final revelation in Chapter al-An‘aam (6):145 until today:

} قُلْ لاَّ أَجِدُ فِي مَا أُحِيَ إِلَىَّ مُحَرَّمًا عَلَى طَاعِمٍ يَطْعَمُهُ إِلاَّ أَنْ يَكُونَ مَيْتَةً أَوْ دَمًا مَسْفُوحًا أَوْ لَحْمَ خِنْزِيرٍ فَإِنَّهُ رِجْسٌ {

“Say (O Muhammad): I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat, except for animals which die of themselves, flowing blood and swine flesh, for they are indeed impure.”

Consequently, particular rites of slaughter were prescribed by God for all the nations to whom prophets were sent, in order to ensure that most of the blood was effectively removed from the slaughtered animals and to remind human beings of God’s bounties. The Qur’aan refers to these instructions in chapter al-Hajj (22):34 as follows:

} وَ لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ جَعَلْنَا مَنْسَكًا لِيَذْكُرُواْ اسْمَ اللهِ عَلَى مَا رَزَقَهُمْ مِنْ بَهِيمَةِ اْلأَنْعَامِ {

“For every nation I have appointed rites of slaughter in order that they may mention Allaah’s name over the cattle He has provided them.”

Jesus and his early followers observed the proper method of slaughter by mentioning God’s name and cutting the jugular veins of the animals while they were living to allow the heart to pump out the blood. However, Christians today do NOT attach much importance to proper slaughter methods, as prescribed by God i.e. they have indeed made the rulings of the Church superior to the teachings of the Bible with regard to the ‘evil’ in the eyes of God Almighty, of consuming pork and blood.

Muslims follow Jesus (pbuh) by neither eating pork nor blood.
Muslims do not follow Jesus. Jesus is God and you blaspheme against Jesus by saying that he is not God.

As far as pork is concerned…Jesus also said there is NOTHING that goes into your body that makes you dirty. It is what comes out of your mouth.

Muslims pay lip service to itsy bitsy teeny weeny parts of what Jesus said and taught. You have no right to say you follow Jesus.
 
Muslims do not follow Jesus. Jesus is God and you blaspheme against Jesus by saying that he is not God.

As far as pork is concerned…Jesus also said there is NOTHING that goes into your body that makes you dirty. It is what comes out of your mouth.

Muslims pay lip service to itsy bitsy teeny weeny parts of what Jesus said and taught. You have no right to say you follow Jesus.
Don’t be silly they have everyright to claim what they wish, and we have every right to disagree with them.

In Truth muslims do not follow Jesus, they follow Mohammed and the reason they do not eat pork is because Mohammed did not eat pork.

Jesus drank wine, yet they refuse wine.

Jesus kept the sabbath, yet they do not keep the sabbath.

Jesus did not allow divorce except in the case of adultery - yet they allow divorce.

Jesus prayed in the temple, yet they pray to the kaaba.

So, all things considered - muslims follow Mohammed, and only in the “few” things that Mohammed agreed with Jesus, do they also follow Jesus.
 
Don’t be silly they have everyright to claim what they wish, and we have every right to disagree with them.

In Truth muslims do not follow Jesus, they follow Mohammed and the reason they do not eat pork is because Mohammed did not eat pork.

Jesus drank wine, yet they refuse wine.

Jesus kept the sabbath, yet they do not keep the sabbath.

Jesus did not allow divorce except in the case of adultery - yet they allow divorce.

Jesus prayed in the temple, yet they pray to the kaaba.

So, all things considered - muslims follow Mohammed, and only in the “few” things that Mohammed agreed with Jesus, do they also follow Jesus.
🙂 Yep…only the itsy bitsy teeny weeny bits that agreed with Moe. 👍
 
You are ignoring an important point.

Judaism does not deny the existence of other gods.

Islam explicitly denies other gods.

Judaism focuses on the worship of 1 god - YHWH.

Islam says there IS only 1 god - Allah.

So what is the point of this anyway.

Well if you are a jew - you are unconcerned with people who worship BAAL, and if they do not bother you and dont turn you from YHWH, then they are not your problem.

This is very true for the Torah.

However, if you are muslim, you believe that the worship of Baal is an affront to the only God in existence - your God, and therefore his creations (non-muslims) are offending him, and therefore you are obligated to fight against them to correct their error - either verbally or physically.

Therefore your entire comparison of the “jihads” of Moses and Mohammed are completely spurious.

Moses never fought polytheists - because YHWH was not concerned with what non hebrews did.

Mohammed fought polytheists because he believed he was doing god a favour.

Do you see the difference?
“Moses never fought polytheists” :confused:

The passage of the Old Testament which I have quoted most definitely disagrees with your assertion.

A Muslim who does not believe in the truth of the Qur’an should no longer consider himself to be a true Muslim.

Should a Jew who does not believe in the truth of the Old Testament still consider himself to be a true Jew?

This goes back to the question of the Jewish ‘kalimah’.

If a Jew believes that the G_d that he worships is only one of a number of gods in existence, then what makes the G-d of the Jews to be so special that they do not worship the other gods?
 
“Moses never fought polytheists” :confused:

The passage of the Old Testament which I have quoted most definitely disagrees with your assertion.

A Muslim who does not believe in the truth of the Qur’an should no longer consider himself to be a true Muslim.

Should a Jew who does not believe in the truth of the Old Testament still consider himself to be a true Jew?

This goes back to the question of the Jewish ‘kalimah’.

If a Jew believes that the G_d that he worships is only one of a number of gods in existence, then what makes the G-d of the Jews to be so special that they do not worship the other gods?
Because God commanded it!
 
If a Jew believes that the G_d that he worships is only one of a number of gods in existence, then what makes the G-d of the Jews to be so special that they do not worship the other gods?
Firstly let me clarify, Judaism is silent on the existence of other gods.

It neither explicitly denies or confirms the existence of other gods.

Implicitly however one may conclude that since YHWH forbids jews from worshipping other gods they may actually exist.

However, this is us surmising.

What is so special about YHWH?

The relationship He shares with jews.

That is the crux of the issue here, judaism is about the relationship between G-d and man.

Mind you, today a jew will probably say there are no other Gods than YHWH.

However, this position is a later development of sages.

The Torah itself does not claim that YHWH is the only G-d out there.
 
The passage of the Old Testament which I have quoted most definitely disagrees with your assertion.
It does not, as I explained the wars being fought were fought for land grabs.

It was not because the people in those lands were polytheists.

They may well have been monotheists - worshipping BAAL alone.

Irrespective - YHWH asked the jews to declare war on them.

As you see, this has NOTHING to do with polytheism.

You cannot compare the wars of Mohammed with those of Moses.

The premises were extremely different, the motives different.
 
Samaritans were also “Monotheists”, but Jesus told them in John 4:22:
“You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.”

So not anyone who claims to be a monotheist is truly worshipping the true God.
Not everyone who claims to be monotheistic will worship the One God in the way that the Almighty Himself wants to be worshiped.

That is why the Lord has sent Prophets (peace be upon them all) throughout the history of humankind i.e. to teach them the correct and proper way to worship their One Lord.

And people who lack faith in the truth of their own scriptures have not even gotten to first base in this regard.
 
Not everyone who claims to be monotheistic will worship the One God in the way that the Almighty Himself wants to be worshiped.

That is why the Lord has sent Prophets (peace be upon them all) throughout the history of humankind i.e. to teach them the correct and proper way to worship their One Lord.

And people who lack faith in the truth of their own scriptures have not even gotten to first base in this regard.
And Mo was a prophet of himself only. Not of God. A man who denies the Divinity of Christ is not a prophet…but an anti-Christ.
 
Not everyone who claims to be monotheistic will worship the One God in the way that the Almighty Himself wants to be worshiped.
That, my friend, is an islamic statement.

It is true for christianity and judaism too, however, the basis on which we say this is very different from the basis on which muslims say the same thing.

All I am trying to get you to realize is that whatever Mohammed was, he was not a prophet of YHWH, as Moses was.
That is why the Lord has sent Prophets (peace be upon them all) throughout the history of humankind i.e. to teach them the correct and proper way to worship their One Lord.
This too is an islamic statement, that has no basis in judaism or christianity.

I dismiss this assertion completely - Nathan did not come to teach David how to worship!
And people who lack faith in the truth of their own scriptures have not even gotten to first base in this regard.
Just because my interpretation of the Torah is not your interpretation of what the Torah is saying does not mean I do not have faith in it.

The Torah is true enough, just not the truth you want it to be.
 
But there are Christians who don’t eat those…
Exceptions do not prove the rule and the majority of Christians have no qualms at all about consuming pork and blood.

Am I right… or… am I right?

Followers need to actually follow the one who they profess to follow… and by this definition, Muslims are the true followers of Prophet Jesus (pbuh), not Christians.
 
Exceptions do not prove the rule and the majority of Christians have no qualms at all about consuming pork and blood.

Am I right… or… am I right?

Followers need to actually follow the one who they profess to follow… and by this definition, Muslims are the true followers of Prophet Jesus (pbuh), not Christians.
Ummm…you’ve ignored my earlier post. Perhaps because it cuts short your fallacious argument. BTW…Jesus also said that you must eat my body and drink my blood.

It’s amazing how muslims ignore posts that clearly show they are in serious error. Oh well… your loss in the after life.
 
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