Jesus vs Muhammad

[dolphinlove]

I do not quite understand why people should have :banghead: as an expression when talking to those of other faiths.

I think that they may have lost the plot as to their purpose in participating in this forum.

I would suggest that they view success and failure on these message boards in the following terms:

Has reading the various responses to your posts helped strengthened your own faith?

If you answer ‘YES’, that may indeed be considered a success.

On the other hand, if your answer is ‘NO’, that in turn could well be the start of the greatest success that you will ever achieve in life, only the Almighty would know for sure.

Oh pleeeeeaaaassssseeeeee hammy!!!
How many times have you derailed thread and tried to tell us how to pray???
:banghead:

 

[sedonaman]

…
Should have compared Muhammad to Joseph Smith.

There was once a man who was concerned about religion. He went into the wilderness and prayed to God for guidance on which religion was the correct one. He later said that God and Jesus appeared to him [un-witnessed of course], and Jesus told him none since all their doctrines were corrupt and an abomination. Three years later, he said an angel appeared to him [un-witnessed of course] telling him that God had chosen him for special work. The man would later claim that he was chosen as the last in the long line of Biblical prophets. The angel revealed [un-witnessed of course] that there was a special book and where it was buried. He allegedly unearthed the book, but he could not read it since he was illiterate in the language the book was written in.

He was instructed by the angel to translate it. This activity was to lead to the restoration of God’s true religion on earth. No one else saw the book, although the prophet got a revelation from God to get three witnesses [men of course]. Since he was a prophet of God, his choices for witnesses had to have been perfect. He took the three out to the woods where the angel allegedly showed them the book. They later denied that they had seen the book with their own eyes but with the “eyes” of faith. The three differed on what they had seen in the woods, quarreled with the prophet, and were condemned by him. [Why God would motivate the prophet to choose unreliable witnesses was not explained.] What happened to the book and its current whereabouts are unknown [in heaven, perhaps].

From time to time, as theological questions arose, the prophet would get revelations from God to answer them.

In case you haven’t guessed by now, this is how the Mormon Church got started, and its “prophet” is Joseph Smith. Smith later claimed his first vision was in 1820.

While differing in details, the stories of how Islam and Mormonism came about are strikingly similar, the salient similarity is that both had “prophets” who claimed to have had divine visions and to be the last in a long line of Biblical prophets.

Both Mormon and Islamic authorities reason backwards. They start with a conclusion already formed in their minds: that sometime after the death of the last Apostle John, the true religion lapsed into corruption and ceased to exist on this earth. Seeing this conclusion as absolutely essential to their own organization, they then proceed to examine the early history of Judaism and Christianity, trying to discover the slightest proof for their pre-conceived ideas. In doing so, they have unfortunately distorted and misinterpreted historical facts, as well as misinterpreted Bible passages and blinded themselves to the most obvious meaning of key Bible texts.

Anyone can stand up and claim he has a message from God. The problem the rest of us face is how to tell whether he is faking it, is delusional, or both. Now my question is, since they both claim essentially the same things, why accept Mohammed as the last prophet and not Joseph Smith who came 1,200 later?

 

[RockyRoad]

There was once a man who was concerned about religion. He went into the wilderness and prayed to God for guidance on which religion was the correct one. He later said that God and Jesus appeared to him [un-witnessed of course], and Jesus told him none since all their doctrines were corrupt and an abomination. Three years later, he said an angel appeared to him [un-witnessed of course] telling him that God had chosen him for special work. The man would later claim that he was chosen as the last in the long line of Biblical prophets. The angel revealed [un-witnessed of course] that there was a special book and where it was buried. He allegedly unearthed the book, but he could not read it since he was illiterate in the language the book was written in.

He was instructed by the angel to translate it. This activity was to lead to the restoration of God’s true religion on earth. No one else saw the book, although the prophet got a revelation from God to get three witnesses [men of course]. Since he was a prophet of God, his choices for witnesses had to have been perfect. He took the three out to the woods where the angel allegedly showed them the book. They later denied that they had seen the book with their own eyes but with the “eyes” of faith. The three differed on what they had seen in the woods, quarreled with the prophet, and were condemned by him. [Why God would motivate the prophet to choose unreliable witnesses was not explained.] What happened to the book and its current whereabouts are unknown [in heaven, perhaps].

From time to time, as theological questions arose, the prophet would get revelations from God to answer them.

In case you haven’t guessed by now, this is how the Mormon Church got started, and its “prophet” is Joseph Smith. Smith later claimed his first vision was in 1820.

While differing in details, the stories of how Islam and Mormonism came about are strikingly similar, the salient similarity is that both had “prophets” who claimed to have had divine visions and to be the last in a long line of Biblical prophets.

Both Mormon and Islamic authorities reason backwards. They start with a conclusion already formed in their minds: that sometime after the death of the last Apostle John, the true religion lapsed into corruption and ceased to exist on this earth. Seeing this conclusion as absolutely essential to their own organization, they then proceed to examine the early history of Judaism and Christianity, trying to discover the slightest proof for their pre-conceived ideas. In doing so, they have unfortunately distorted and misinterpreted historical facts, as well as misinterpreted Bible passages and blinded themselves to the most obvious meaning of key Bible texts.

Anyone can stand up and claim he has a message from God. The problem the rest of us face is how to tell whether he is faking it, is delusional, or both. Now my question is, since they both claim essentially the same things, why accept Mohammed as the last prophet and not Joseph Smith who came 1,200 later?

I had a message from God about your post!

Here it is…

ya ready?

ya sure?

okay

:clapping::clapping::clapping: :extrahappy::extrahappy::extrahappy:

 

[hamba2han]

There was once a man who was concerned about religion. He went into the wilderness and prayed to God for guidance on which religion was the correct one. He later said that God and Jesus appeared to him [un-witnessed of course], and Jesus told him none since all their doctrines were corrupt and an abomination. Three years later, he said an angel appeared to him [un-witnessed of course] telling him that God had chosen him for special work. The man would later claim that he was chosen as the last in the long line of Biblical prophets. The angel revealed [un-witnessed of course] that there was a special book and where it was buried. He allegedly unearthed the book, but he could not read it since he was illiterate in the language the book was written in.

He was instructed by the angel to translate it. This activity was to lead to the restoration of God’s true religion on earth. No one else saw the book, although the prophet got a revelation from God to get three witnesses [men of course]. Since he was a prophet of God, his choices for witnesses had to have been perfect. He took the three out to the woods where the angel allegedly showed them the book. They later denied that they had seen the book with their own eyes but with the “eyes” of faith. The three differed on what they had seen in the woods, quarreled with the prophet, and were condemned by him. [Why God would motivate the prophet to choose unreliable witnesses was not explained.] What happened to the book and its current whereabouts are unknown [in heaven, perhaps].

From time to time, as theological questions arose, the prophet would get revelations from God to answer them.

In case you haven’t guessed by now, this is how the Mormon Church got started, and its “prophet” is Joseph Smith. Smith later claimed his first vision was in 1820.

While differing in details, the stories of how Islam and Mormonism came about are strikingly similar, the salient similarity is that both had “prophets” who claimed to have had divine visions and to be the last in a long line of Biblical prophets.

Both Mormon and Islamic authorities reason backwards. They start with a conclusion already formed in their minds: that sometime after the death of the last Apostle John, the true religion lapsed into corruption and ceased to exist on this earth. Seeing this conclusion as absolutely essential to their own organization, they then proceed to examine the early history of Judaism and Christianity, trying to discover the slightest proof for their pre-conceived ideas. In doing so, they have unfortunately distorted and misinterpreted historical facts, as well as misinterpreted Bible passages and blinded themselves to the most obvious meaning of key Bible texts.

Anyone can stand up and claim he has a message from God. The problem the rest of us face is how to tell whether he is faking it, is delusional, or both. Now my question is, since they both claim essentially the same things, why accept Mohammed as the last prophet and not Joseph Smith who came 1,200 later?

For starters, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), through the Grace of Almighty God, performed many miracles which was witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of both his followers and also his enemies.

What miracles did Joseph Smith performed?

 

[RockyRoad]

For starters, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), through the Grace of Almighty God, performed many miracles which was witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of both his followers and also his enemies.

What miracles did Joseph Smith performed?

Just like Mohammad…he talked to the evil one. That’s some kind of miracle. Not everyone has a one on one conversation with the evil one.

 

[jakasaki]

For starters, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), through the Grace of Almighty God, performed many miracles which was witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of both his followers and also his enemies.

Leaving the hadiths out of this and using only the koran,

Koran 13 - 7
And the Unbelievers say: **“Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?” But thou art truly a warner, and to every people a guide. **

Koran 10 - 20
They say: “**Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?” **Say: “The Unseen is only for Allah (to know), then wait ye: I too will wait with you.”

Koran 13 - 27
The Unbelievers say: “Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?” Say: "Truly Allah leaveth, to stray, whom He will; But He guideth to Himself those who turn to Him in penitence,-

There is nothing in the koran that states mohamad performed any miracles.

It clearly states he is nothing but a “warner”.

 

[hamba2han]

Leaving the hadiths out of this and using only the koran,

Koran 13 - 7
And the Unbelievers say: **“Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?” But thou art truly a warner, and to every people a guide. **

Koran 10 - 20
They say: “**Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?” **Say: “The Unseen is only for Allah (to know), then wait ye: I too will wait with you.”

Koran 13 - 27
The Unbelievers say: “Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?” Say: "Truly Allah leaveth, to stray, whom He will; But He guideth to Himself those who turn to Him in penitence,-

There is nothing in the koran that states mohamad performed any miracles.

It clearly states he is nothing but a “warner”.

I am baffled.

Since what is recorded in the Qur’an and the ahadith both came from the lips of the same man, why then should a disbeliever make a differentiation between the two?

A believer will certainly have reason to differentiate between the Qur’an and the ahadith… but a disbeliever??.. Why?

 

[RockyRoad]

I am baffled.

Since what is recorded in the Qur’an and the ahadith both came from the lips of the same man, why then should a disbeliever make a differentiation between the two?

A believer will certainly have reason to differentiate between the Qur’an and the ahadith… but a disbeliever??.. Why?

A disbeliever in the koran…who is a believer in the Bible…really doesn’t care. We must just show the man made koran to be what it is. MAN MADE. Just like Moby Dick or any other work of fiction. Poetic or not.

 

[sedonaman]

For starters, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), through the Grace of Almighty God, performed many miracles which was witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of both his followers and also his enemies. …

Where is your evidence? The fact that he did not perform any miracles was enough of a problem that he had to address it, and that is documented in the Qur’an. If he “performed many miracles which was witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of both his followers and also his enemies,” then why the passages in the Qur’an that explain why he didn’t?

 

[jakasaki]

I am baffled.

Since what is recorded in the Qur’an and the ahadith both came from the lips of the same man, why then should a disbeliever make a differentiation between the two?

A believer will certainly have reason to differentiate between the Qur’an and the ahadith… but a disbeliever??.. Why?

What???

Since your koran is the word of allah, where is it written in the koran that mohamad did any miracles? And what were mohamads miracles?

The koran was written way before any of the hadiths, so if mohamad performed any miracles by the will of allah, it would be written in there.

What are the miracles you posted up above:

Quote “”“performed many miracles which was witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of both his followers and also his enemies.”""

 

[RockyRoad]

What???

Since your koran is the word of allah, where is it written in the koran that mohamad did any miracles? And what were mohamads miracles?

The koran was written way before any of the hadiths, so if mohamad performed any miracles by the will of allah, it would be written in there.

What are the miracles you posted up above:

Quote “”“performed many miracles which was witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of both his followers and also his enemies.”""

Well…he didn’t part the Red Sea like Moses did…but he did part many heads from their bodies.

 

[jakasaki]

to Hamba

Koran chapter 17: 89 - 96

89 And We have explained to man, in this Qur’an, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude!

90 **They say: "We shall not believe in thee, until thou cause a spring to gush forth for us from the earth, **

91 **"Or (until) thou have a garden of date trees and vines, and cause rivers to gush forth in their midst, carrying abundant water; **

92 **"Or thou cause the sky to fall in pieces, as thou sayest (will happen), against us; or thou bring Allah and the angels before (us) face to face: **

93 **“Or thou have a house adorned with gold, or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we could read.” Say: “Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man,- an apostle?” **

94 What kept men back from belief when Guidance came to them, was nothing but this: they said, “Has Allah sent a man (like us) to be (His) Messenger.”

95 Say, “If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for an apostle.”

96 Say: "Enough is Allah for a witness between me and you: for He is well acquainted with His servants, and He sees (all things).

searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=17&translator=2&mac=

 

[hamba2han]

What???

Since your koran is the word of allah, where is it written in the koran that mohamad did any miracles? And what were mohamads miracles?

The koran was written way before any of the hadiths, so if mohamad performed any miracles by the will of allah, it would be written in there.

What are the miracles you posted up above:

Quote “”“performed many miracles which was witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of both his followers and also his enemies.”""

I have posted before regarding the miracles of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). but most of these miracles are recorded in the ahadith.

BTW, both the Qur’an and much of the ahadith were indeed recorded at the same period in time i.e. during the prophet-hood of Muhammad (pbuh).

Only thing is that the Qur’an was compiled into a book-form much earlier than the ahadith.

 

[RockyRoad]

Or better yet…BBQ spare ribs. I’m having those on the grill tomorrow. Today…we’re having pork fed swordfish!

 

[KS_On_The_Rock]

Very well KS, Catholic woman married to a muslim man, living in Dearborn Michigan ~

I know by asking this question I am “derailing” Qwerks thread, ~ I’m sorry Qwerk ~ but out of curiosity KS, is your muslim husband now a Catholic or is he still a follower of islam?

Also, how many Dearborn muslims have you converted to Christianity?

Jakasaki, we’re not quite living in Dearborn, but yes close enough

To answer your question that is indeed off topic, but I feel it could be beneficial to other readers who may have given up hope on any conversion of Muslims; yes my husband is indeed on the road to becoming a Catholic. Praise God! I am certain that this is due to my witness and the Holy Spirit working through me. That my friend is a HUGE victory.

When I met him we had no idea it would lead to marriage. 7 years ago I was a 17 year old girl trying to justify to my family, and friends how I could in fact want to date someone with such different views and beliefs, knowing in fact it wouldn’t lead to anything serious. I found it hard to even justify to myself, but something kept drawing me closer to this man. He was a good person. A better person than many Christians I know. He didn’t have to be called a Christian to see that. There are indeed many many good people from other faiths out there.

He had never been told anything about Christianity from any other standpoint than what Islam teaches of it. Was that his fault? Of course not. That was his culture, he was from Lebanon, and yes there are many Christians there. I think it’s pretty safe to say it is one of the most mixed religious countries in the Middle East, and a very beautiful place indeed. Being that though, he still had never actually seen Christians being true witnesses to the Lord. And I know now that he has, it has had a huge impact on his life.

We dated 6 years and married this past June. I would have never dreamed in a million years that he would agree to marry in a Catholic Church and yet he did. And his Muslim family had no issue with this, amazingly enough. Earlier in our courtship you see they had a very big problem with us being together, as did my own family, but lo and behold, love prevails! I know it was a miracle indeed when his family and mine could come together and celebrate our vows in the Catholic Church and have no issues with it at all. We’re talking straight up full blown Catholic ceremony, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and nobody had any animosity towards the other, everyone was very comfortable, and yes that was a very joyous day and a miracle in itself.

As for your question on how many Dearborn Muslims have I converted, the answer is none! I can’t convert anyone…as for the Holy Spirit; I guess I will never be sure how many Dearborn Muslims He has converted. I do believe however, this isn’t the right question to be asking. You see Muslims in general probably won’t come out and say it when they feel they have changed beliefs. There is much more Muslim conversion going on than people believe but due to the Islamic culture, many don’t come out and say “well I’m Christian now, and no longer a Muslim.” because that will probably draw a lot of animosity and confusion among their family and friends and could even lead to their death in some countries. That could be a very hard thing to deal with especially when you are freshly believing in Christ as Lord. MBBs (Muslim background believers) have a very hard time coming out and saying “I am Christian now,” but don’t think it isn’t happening. The Holy Spirit is always at work.

I can say however, that I have generated many many questions about the faith, and in turn the answers that I try and give have allowed many people to begin questioning their own Muslim faith. That is all I need to know to sleep peacefully enough at night. For there is no contest here on how many converts I can win or not. That’s so beyond the point, what I am working for is helping any Muslim come to Jesus. And if in my lifetime I only really help one, well I still consider that a victory for Christ. If you allow it the Holy Spirit will work through you in ways that you don’t even recognize. Several times I have been at work or around Muslims, and haven’t said a word to them about my faith, but I have been questioned on the crucifix around my neck, and that indeed opens up a whole new conversation… Now if there was no possibility of ever convincing Muslims of Christianity, then the whole idea of Christianity would be a fraud in and of itself, but there IS hope, and Christianity is certainly NOT a fraud.

Hopefully this answered your questions, forgive me, I know I wrote a lot but that seems to happen to me often when trying to explain things. Thanks for reading.

May God Bless you, and keep you in the palm of His hand. :hug3:

KS

 

[jakasaki]

I saw those posts from him but ignored them. Hamba gets his information from Deedat and he was the biggest anti-Christian hater that I’ve known.

The koran cannot stand on it’s own
Islam cannot stand on it’s own
Mohamad cannot stand on it’s own

 

[qwerk]

(Here is part 2 of my last post thanks for reading it all!

   I agree with you on the point that if you say something about their prophet Mohammad and Islam they get upset. I understand that they are not to criticize Islam, and that yes they may in fact only be here to spread their beliefs and the message of Islam…but regardless they are here!  They must have been brought here for a reason, now it is up to us to help that reason turn positive and help them along the way to the real truth. 

 Certainly Muslims get defensive when you start bashing their religion...to them it is correct. The same way we as Christians, or Jews, or any religion for that matter would feel if someone started telling us what we believe, and what many have grown up to believe was wrong. I know this because I have found myself in that position many times. I know from personal experience when a Muslim tells me that Jesus Christ is not the Lord, that I get upset...as most Christians would. So in that same regard by coming right out and stating that their most important prophet is wrong, of course that upsets them. They need to be shown in the most sincere and peaceful way that what Mohammad brought to the table is not right. We need to stop saying all the negative things, although I personally do agree with some of those things, they might even come to agree with you on those points later on but for now we need to prove to them in a way that doesn't immediately put them on a defensive and close off the possibility of changing their lives for the better. By doing that we arent intimidating them. I’m sure we all have been intimidated in our lives and who doesn’t get defensive when this occurs, it’s only natural. 

 We have no way of knowing what each Muslim knows or does not know. You’re right we can’t assume that they are not practicing religiously sanctioned deception as you have stated. Understanding that they may indeed feel victimized though is something different. Regardless if they feel that it is for their life or the fact that they are not advancing their religion. It is very difficult to deal with the fact that someone is telling you that what you believe is not correct. It's VERY personal and affects us in a very personal way. That is also only natural. 

 I agree that when trying to prove Islam wrong that the very best place to go is to their own sources. I fully understand that these sources are highly contradictory as you obviously do to, but do they? No, they have no way of knowing this because they have been taught no such thing. They are taught to not question the divine revelation of the Qur’an. So again we have to be even more careful in the tactics that we use when sharing Christianity with them. Do not bash their book instead show a respect for what they believe and then prove it wrong by showing them the real truth; the truth in the Bible, but even more importantly, the truth in the Divine message of Jesus Christ. I also agree 100% that many Muslims are ignorant to their own texts, this is where we come into play and I like the way you have such a passion for doing this, but understand that they will in turn, turn around and point out to you what they feel is contradictory in the Bible. And let me remind you, many Christians my friend, are also ignorant to the teachings of our own book, and this could be considered a failing of Christianity to many Muslims, that is where the importance of our actions comes even more into play. I do want to point out as I have mentioned above I understand your passion and zeal for this topic because I myself also feel it. I feel the need to help Muslims learn the truth and want them to know God the way we as Christians know him. We are all His creation, and we all have a right to know Him the way He intended us to know Him.

One last side note: I do not want to be the one that you all do not want around on this thread, so if you would like I can go my own ways and find somewhere else to converse. I sincerely hope that is not the case because I find comfort in the fact that I am not the only one who wants to show Muslims the Truth, but out of respect for your thread and what you are trying to do here I will leave if you want me to.

Thanks for taking the time to read what I have to say I do appreciate it! And please consider joining my group on CAF, Praying for Muslims. Thank you!

May God Bless you and keep you in the palm of His hand. :hug3:
KS

I think it is best not to keep pointing out other’s problems just because they don’t say it like you do.

I never want anyone to leave. That is exactly what Islam is about - censorship. I want you to give your opinion. Some that I have come across on CAF do get all entangled with their weird ideas of love and get angry and want people to follow whatever they are saying. I do not. I want you to feel free (within forum rules of course!!) but I have no problem with you writing what you do. We waste more time pointing out each others problems though when the real problem is Islam and please read the article in the next paragraph. We were dupped about Islam. It is not about peace, nor is it benign and good for us to just sit back and let steam roll over us while we think that we should be emersing ourselves in some sort of a ‘love fest’. (more like political correctness gone astray)

Sometimes I think that God works in strange ways because when I am not saying something correctly, He sends me someone who does. Here.

 

[jakasaki]

I have posted before regarding the miracles of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). but most of these miracles are recorded in the ahadith.

BTW, both the Qur’an and much of the ahadith were indeed recorded at the same period in time i.e. during the prophet-hood of Muhammad (pbuh).

Only thing is that the Qur’an was compiled into a book-form much earlier than the ahadith.

Answer SedonaMan’s inquiry please:

**

Where is your evidence? The fact that he did not perform any miracles was enough of a problem that he had to address it, and that

is documented in the Qur’an. If he “performed many miracles which was witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of both his followers and also his enemies,” then why the passages in the Qur’an that explain why he didn’t?**

 

[jakasaki]

Noticed how Hamba didn’t answer my “camel” statement…

Muslims take pride that they don’t eat pork like the Jews don’t eat pork because it is God’s command from the 5 Books of Moses.

The Jews are following the dietary laws of Leviticus. Leviticus also states that camel meat is also forbidden.

Jews don’t eat camel, but muslims do.

Jews also don’t eat lizard or hare, but muslims do.

So, if Hamba is going to go on and on about Christians and pork, then I will go on and on about camel, lizard and hare.

 

[hamba2han]

Where is your evidence? The fact that he did not perform any miracles was enough of a problem that he had to address it, and that is documented in the Qur’an. If he “performed many miracles which was witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of both his followers and also his enemies,” then why the passages in the Qur’an that explain why he didn’t?

Kindly point out where in the Qur’an does it state this “fact” that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) does not perform miracles.