"Jesus was a socialist" -- rebuttal

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laylow said:
Liberation theology that sees Jesus as a “Good deed doer” tends to over emphasize that aspect of his charity. The problem is many governments where parliamentary systems are in place, they tend to really see him that way and churches as social welfare addendums rather than places of spiritual enrichment. So many Christian churches have “food pantries/food lockers” whereby they hand out food to a large group of people that generally are unchurched. I saw this when I was a volunteer in a parish in DC where the same people kept on coming and we gave food to the needy and greedy alike- all supported by the people of God… Many parishes there spoke of Jesus doing “social Justice” when they were really saying “socialism”. The correct way to view Christian charity is the term you used- distributist.
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Distributism is not charity, Distributism, is an economic theory formulated by Hilaire Belloc and G.K. Chesterton largely in response to the principles of Social Justice laid down by Leo XIII in his encyclical Rerum Novarum. There have been proponents of Distributism that view this as a “3rd way”…between capitalism and socialism.
Man maintains his individualism and largely contributes to society by means of livelihood that supports himself in the process. A win~win situation.
Chesterton has a saying that the problem isn’t too much capitalism, it’s too few capitalists. And how has this problem manifested itself in the 21st century? Mammoth box stores that have all but obliterated the butcher, the baker and the candle-stick maker. These too are seeing “their day” with internet stores taking over/i.e. shopping on line.
And what did we get? We wanted it fast and hot and now. In the process of our consumerism that Saint Pope John P. II warned against, we have many persons working for conglomerates and monopolies…hence, Chesterton was right~
Distributism is based on the principle of ownership, even if that ownership of property consists of one’s own tools of his trade allowing him to foster his livelihood and support himself.
It does not foster and praise unfettered capitalism with a power to exploit the laborer in examples seen too many to number, nor does it exult pure socialism where the means of production is owned by the state.
It follows the principle of Rerum Novarum which views the dignity of man as something other than a cog in a wheel of production for an otherwise unknown entity that signs your paycheck.
However, it certainly is not charity.
 
I like “distributism”.

But I’m neither a butcher, nor a baker, nor a candlestick maker.

GOOD with numbers.

I can by using my savings buy the common stock of corporations.

Oil companies, hotel chains, gambling casinos.

Mutual funds like Ave Maria.

No gambling using options.

Investing “systems” like Lichello and Signal Point.

Not companies like Microsoft … some very sharp seven-year-old could put them out of business.

Diversified portfolio.

Jesus could not be a socialist because He never ran out of other peoples’ money, which is what socialists do.

Jesus did miracles and surrendered Himself, which socialist bureaucrats NEVER do; they all have guaranteed pensions for themselves and empty promises for everyone else.

Jesus would never produce a Venezuela or a Cuba.
 
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DENNYINMI said:
It does not foster and praise unfettered capitalism with a power to exploit the laborer in examples seen too many to number, nor does it exult pure socialism where the means of production is owned by the state.
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Hear! Hear! Capitalism, properly fettered, is a good start.
 
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upant said:
the state takes ownership not the community, a big difference.
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Why is that?
Steward, Abbot, Council, Episcopacy, Senate, Committee, Mayor, Congress, House of Commons, House of Lords, House of Representatives, Prime Minister, President, Chancellor, Royals…they are just different representative ways of governing the goods of a community with some being better than others in given circumstances i would have thought.

I have never seen a successful community where every individual had a say in every decision. Representation in a fallen world seems inevitable with the inevitable unavoidable weaknesses.
 
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“Jesus answered them and said, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were satisfied. Do not work for the food that is perishing, but for the food enduring unto eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you; for God the Father has sealed Him.’ Therefore they said to Him, ‘What must we do, that we may be doing the works of God?’ Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you should believe in Him whom He has sent.’ Therefore they said to Him, "Then what sign are You doing, that we may see and may believe You? What work do You perform? Our forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is the One coming out of heaven and giving life to the world. Therefore they said to Him, "Sir, always give to us this bread. Jesus answered, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst.’"
John 6:26-31
Where do socialists read Jesus Christ say, I’ve come to make an earthly Utopia
to usurp the powers that be; stay with Me for free earthly bread?
Some Caesars did. Poor Relief in Ancient Rome - Foundation for Economic Education
 
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Didn’t you read that bit in Mark? “‘One thing you lack,’ he said, ‘Go, vote for corporate tax cuts so that wealth will trickle down to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven’”
OH WAIT he didn’t say that did he
 
DaveBj said:
Jesus was a socialist,” and in the process of answering him, I came
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Jesus was not a socialist or a communist or a democrat, neither was he a republican or a monarchist or any other modern political label which man may be tempted to foolishly label the Master with.

Jesus was and is super-political (meaning he was and is above manmade political distinctions.)
 
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Sophie111 said:
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upant:
the state takes ownership not the community, a big difference.
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Why is that?
Steward, Abbot, Council, Episcopacy, Senate, Committee, Mayor, Congress, House of Commons, House of Lords, House of Representatives, Prime Minister, President, Chancellor, Royals…they are just different representative ways of governing the goods of a community with some being better than others in given circumstances i would have thought.

I have never seen a successful community where every individual had a say in every decision. Representation in a fallen world seems inevitable with the inevitable unavoidable weaknesses.
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Representation is one thing, usurpation is quite another.

Since when is representation defined as you work and I, as your representative, eat.

In more honest times that was considered slavery.

Today, all who work are considered the slaves of those who, speaking euphemistically, represent them.

By all means, let us universalize this “representation” to make it global.

You all work, and we, as your representatives, will decide if and when you eat.

But, of course, your faith in humanity far exceeds mine.
 
9 days ago…sorry, its one of those “you had to be there” moments and you werent.
Done and dusted, we’ve all moved on.
 
Ask him where Jesus supports ideas that are specifically socialist using the gospel. I’m so sick of people putting political labels on God. Do you remember the gospel reading Sunday? Jesus was talking about how great the woman’s charity was because she gave everything she had, not because the rich people didn’t give more. Nothing in that verse calls for redistribution of wealth or a completely government controlled economy. The lesson was (at least according to Fr.'s homily), that we are to give all we are to him. Does your friend really believe that, or is it an issue of projection, he’s putting his own ideologies on Jesus?
 
Sophie111 said:
9 days ago…sorry, its one of those “you had to be there” moments and you werent.
Done and dusted, we’ve all moved on.
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What can I say, I was unexpectedly impeded.

I never realized that discussions had a shelf life, but do “move on” if you wish.
 
Eric_Hyom said:
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steve-b:
Where on this planet is socialism working?
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It works better in places of poverty. In some poor areas they have what they call ‘neighbourhood watch’.

People look around to see who is eating, and then they go and sit with them. The food is shared as there is an understanding that those who have today, may have to go and share with those who have tomorrow.
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When I asked “where on this planet is socialism is working” I’m looking for the identity of a place. Do you have such a place in mind?
 
Sophie111 said:
Not sure what the point is - one might ask where on the planet there isn’t priestly sexual abuse or where is there an adult Catholic who has never sinned.

Anyways, in the monastic community in Provence I just presented - and no doubt many more sub communities of the Catholic Church.
But as usual, whether it is working well or poorly will likely depend on your personal definition of Socialism.
The same applies to Capitalism I would think.
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Do you have a place in mind, on this planet and can name, where socialism as the government and ruling system, is working?
 
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steve-b said:
Do you have a place in mind, on this planet and can name, where socialism as the government and ruling system, is working?
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Probably not - and the reason is this, socialism is very much a sacrificial way of living. It depends on supporting the disadvantaged people in life, like the refugees, widows, orphans, the disabled and the poor.

Just for arguments sake, if a sustainable wage for everyone in the world was $12 k per year. Very few people earning more than that; would be willing to come down to that sustainable $12 k; in order for everyone to have a fair share.

If you are lucky enough to take home twelve thousand US dollars a year, this puts you in the top 15 % of the richest people on earth according to…

http://www.globalrichlist.com/
 
Eric_Hyom said:
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steve-b:
Do you have a place in mind, on this planet and can name, where socialism as the government and ruling system, is working?
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Probably not - and the reason is this, socialism is very much a sacrificial way of living. It depends on supporting the disadvantaged people in life, like the refugees, widows, orphans, the disabled and the poor.
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Yet there are professed socialist countries on the planet.
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Eric_Hyom:
Just for arguments sake, if a sustainable wage for everyone in the world was $12 k per year. Very few people earning more than that; would be willing to come down to that sustainable $12 k; in order for everyone to have a fair share.

If you are lucky enough to take home twelve thousand US dollars a year, this puts you in the top 15 % of the richest people on earth according to…
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Why do we have problems of people Even breaking the law to break into the United States? Is anyone trying to break into a Socialist country that you know of?,
 
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steve-b said:
Why do we have problems of people Even breaking the law to break into the United States?
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People have been breaking into the United States for the last five hundred years, why break a tradition.
 
Yes, give all to God;
and voluntarily do all we are able in time, talent, and treasure
for The Gospel and the poor;
never compromising the dignity and value granted by God for
every human life from the moment of conception.
Yes, yes, yes.
The problem with socialism is that it is a proven failed ideology.
There are public figures who sanction even encourage child killing;
while crying ‘redistribution,’ and believe it or not one even blasphemed
by saying the Christians in Acts laid their possessions at the Apostle’s feet.
For one thing; this wasn’t mandatory; but out of need.
Another thing; they didn’t give all their possessions to a government
that has unjust laws like murdering the helpless children.
The Church did not go around starting communes in Evangelizing, either.
People supported their Church community; and gave to the poor voluntarily.
While they owned land, and worked.
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“Centisimus Annus” (1991) by John Paul ii is an excellent read on the subject.
But isn’t interesting that John Cardinal O’Connor in 1992, even though John Paul ii,
asserted that capitol & labor must recognize the dignity of the human person;
even made sure to include children from the moment of conception in the
document; asked for a specific Apostolic exhortation on the Sacredness of human life?
The result was “Evangelium Vitae.”
By the way the first document I noted was the 100th anniversary of “Rerum Novarum,”
an Encyclical of Leo xiii on capital & labor — written specifically because so many
were being seduced by the false philosophies of Carl Marx and others.
Carl Marx hated the Judaeo Christian Ethic.
It is no coincidence that today’s proponents of socialism try to reinvent Jesus Christ
as a socialist; while redefining the Judaeo Christian Ethic; which is primarily for the salvation of souls.
If someone truly wants to impact poverty; we must be true to ourselves;
let Jesus Christ Grace each of us with less poverty of virtue;
and care for the poor in light of sharing the authentic Gospel which helps inform
conscience to be open to be convicted by The Holy Spirit.
This is what Mother Teresa did; and she made sure to tell everyone;
that she wasn’t a social worker, but an instrument of Jesus Christ; and for His Name;
for others to be led to Him.
 
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And here I thought Jesus was a private business owner for 20 plus years prior to his ministry. Peter was a fisher.

I’m sure they paid their taxes too.
 
Eric_Hyom said:
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steve-b:
Why do we have problems of people Even breaking the law to break into the United States?
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People have been breaking into the United States for the last five hundred years, why break a tradition.
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The US wasn’t a country 500 yrs ago. It’s been a country for 239 yrs.
 
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