Jesus was an only son.. Mary did not have more children!!

[rbarcia]

Well, if “brother” means literally “brother” and there is no other meaning but biological sons of the same father and mother, I would like to call your attention to the extended family of Paul.

Paul’s parents had lots of sons and sisters, one was named Ananias, whom Paul apparently barely knew.

Acts 22:12-13, “There a certain Ananias came to me. He was a devout observer of the Law and well spoken of by all the Jews who were living there. As he stood by me, he said: ‘Brother Saul, recover your sight.’ At that moment I could see and I looked at him.”

Acts 9:17, “So Ananias left and went to the house. He laid his hands upon Saul and said, “Saul, my brother, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on your way here, has sent me to you so that you may receive your sight and be filled with Holy Spirit.””

Another son was Timothy…

Colossians 1:1, “Paul, apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God and Timothy our brother.”

Other was Tychicus…

Colossians 4,7, “Tychicus will give news of me. He is our dear brother and for me a faithful assistant and fellow worker for the Lord.”

Let’s not forget Onesimus…

Colossians 4,9, “With him I am sending Onesimus, our faithful and dear brother, who is one of yours. They will tell you about everything that is happening here.”

The High Priest and the whole Council were also Paul’s parents sons.

Acts 22:30 “The next day the commander wanted to know for certain the charges the Jews were making against Paul. So he released him from prison and called together the High Priest and the whole Council; and they brought Paul down and made him stand before them.”
Acts 23:1, “Paul looked directly at the Council and said, “Brothers, to this day I have lived my life with a clear conscience before God.””

Some of the sons of Paul’s parents were Saducees, some were Pharisees.

Acts 23:6, “Paul knew that part of the Council were Sadducees and others Pharisees; so he spoke out in the Council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, son of a Pharisee. It is for the hope in the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial here.””

The leaders of the Jews were also sons of Paul’s parents.

Acts 28:17, "After three days, Paul called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had gathered, he said to them: “Brothers, though I have not done anything against our people or against the traditions of our fathers, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans.”

Other sons and daughters of Paul’s parents had moved to Rome.

Romans 1:13, “You must know, brothers and sisters, that many times I have made plans to go to you, but till now I have been prevented.”

While others to Corinth…

1 Corinthians 1:10, “I beg of you, brothers, in the name of Christ Jesus, our Lord, to agree among yourselves and do away with divisions; please be perfectly united, with one mind and one judgment.”

And Galatia…

Galatians 1:11, “Let me remind you, brothers and sisters, that the Gospel we preached to you is not a human message,”

And Ephesus, where Tychicus went…

Ephesians 6:21, “I also want you to know how I am and what I am doing. Tychicus, our beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, will tell you everything.”

Still others were in Philippi…

Philippians 1:12, “I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that what has happened to me has served to advance the Gospel.”

Thessalonica…

1 Thessalonias 2:14, “Brothers and sisters, you followed the example of the churches of God in Judea, churches of Christ Jesus. For you suffered from your compatriots the same trials they suffered from the Jews,”

And Colossae, also visited by Tychicus…

Colossians 1,2, “to the saints in Colossae, our faithful brothers and sisters in Christ: Receive grace and peace from God our Father, and Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Just as you said, "in each instance, the specific Greek word for brother is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother".

God bless you

The context of the verses I quote is talking about physical brothers and sisters. The context of the ones you quotes are spiritual. But in none of the verses you quotes are we to think they are spiritual “cousins”. You are going around the argument.

So can I call my Christian Brother or Sister a Christian Cousin? Here is one part of Scripture that distinguishes Physical Brothers and Sisters from Spiritual ones. Which implies that the original brothers and sisters were physical.

Matthew 12

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers (Physical) are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers(Spiritual). 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Substitute cousin in one, and you have to do it to the other.

 

[Prieldedi]

The context of the verses I quote is talking about physical brothers and sisters. The context of the ones you quotes are spiritual. But in none of the verses you quotes are we to think they are spiritual “cousins”. You are going around the argument.

So can I call my Christian Brother or Sister a Christian Cousin? Here is one part of Scripture that distinguishes Physical Brothers and Sisters from Spiritual ones. Which implies that the original brothers and sisters were physical.

Matthew 12

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers (Physical) are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers(Spiritual). 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Substitute cousin in one, and you have to do it to the other.

Who is to decide in which passages the Bible talks about spiritual brothers, blood brothers, cousins, uncles, etc.? You? Me? Someone who was born 1700 years after the facts? Or those who lived in the same era and gave us these facts, those who had Authority and knowledge, both given to them by Jesus Himself so they could guide His flock? Precisely those Early Christians are the ones that taught us that Mary, by the Grace of God, was kept from sin as She was to receive God in Her womb, and remained a Virgin forever. If your read the previous posts in this thread you’ll find all the biblical passages that confirm what the Church Fathers taught us.

Show us then the passages from Scripture that irrefutable state that Mary gave birth to the “brothers and sisters”, give us the passages that show us they were born from no other woman but Mary.

In the meantime, I’ll give this genealogy of the Brethren prepared by Bob Stanley:

GENEALOGY:

        ---Zebedee------Mt 4:21, Mk 1:19, Mk 3:17----------------

        + >------begat--------James and John-------------------------

        ---Salome------------Mt 27:56, Mk 15:40--------------------


        ---Cleophas-(Alphaeus)--Mt 10:2-3, Jn 19:25, Acts 1:13------

        + >------begat------James (the less), Joseph (Joses), and Jude---------

        ---Mary----the other Mary, Mt 27:56,61, 28:1, Jn 19:25------


        ---THE HOLY SPIRIT------Lk 1:35-38----------------------

        + >------begat------JESUS THE CHRIST--------------------

        ---Mary---------------------Lk 1:30-38-----------------------

This ‘Genealogy’ shows who the real parents of the ‘brothers’ in Mark 6:3, and Matthew 13:55, are, and makes the word ‘brother’ a non-argument.

“Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . ‘brothers’ really means ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”
Martin Luther, (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39).

The question I ask Protestants is: why did it take 1700-1800 years to start to question Mary’s Perpetual Virginity? Don’t use the argument that Catholics were “forced” to believe in Mary’s Virginity because it’s not true. Between the Resurrection and Luther, how many Christians lived? Millions! Do you really believe all of them were brain washed? Be careful in using this argument, because it might explode in front of you too. Atheist use it against all believers. They say we all have been brain washed to believe in God.

So give us the Bible passage that states that Mary gave birth to those kids. Go ahead, pick up your Bible and prove it. I’ll wait…

Have you noticed that the “brothers and sisters” of Jesus are missing too when Jesus was lost in the temple? At least Jesus was found, the others are still lost. They are missing again at the wedding in Cana, a family event. They were not a the Cross when their brother was dying, they were not there when He was buried (with brothers like this who needs cousins!), they were missing when Jesus resurrected. Even more, the sisters are nameless! We know about Mary Magdalene, the other Mary, Salome, we even know the name of the High Priest servant, Malchus, whose ear was cut by Peter… and we don’t have the slightest idea of the names of the Lord’s sisters? Please!

In the end, when Jesus is dying at the cross, He asks John to take care of his mother. Couldn’t He have said “ask my brother (fill in the name) or my sister (fill in the name) to take care of my Mother?” He didn’t because there were none (John 19:27 “… And from that moment the disciple took Her to his own home.”)

The truth is that these brief passages can’t prove that Mary was their biological mother. Therefore the biological “brothers and sisters” of the Lord are nonexistent. Cousins is the logical relationship. There is also a tradition between many Catholics that if in fact they were half brothers, the children of Joseph from a previous marriage. We can’t prove it to be true, and you can’t denied it either.

Go to the Early Christians, to those who lived closer in time than any of us to Jesus. Read what they say about it in particular and about Christianity in general, you’ll be surprised to find that it’s the same message then as today… 2000 years! The protestant message has changed so much in the last 100~150 years to prove it wrong. In the 1850’s there were less than 400 Protestant churches, today there are more than 39,000.

God bless you

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi: Thank you for that wonderful post, and I know that people leave churches, and/or religions(denominations) for many reasons! I have been called many things, some good, some not so nice, but since I am acceted by God I can be rejected by man; as my worth does not lie in man, but in Christ! Leaving churches, is somewhat like leaving a job, or even a marriage; they are looking for a place where everything fits together, when we know that Jesus told us"In this world, you will have ials and tribulations." And rules, and regulations ae a part of life, you are rigt; but we must guard against overregulating, or (name removed by moderator)utting our own interpretations in order to control people. In prison, there are regulations mandated by law, but some people come in, and feel that because they have that badge on, they can exert their own punishment! I have changed churches, usually because of moving, when it is not feasible to commute to the former church! Iam currently attending one, which is externally focused, doing the Mark 10:45, Matthew 25:31-40, Mathew 28:19-20 thing. And then twice a month, we hit the streets, and homeless center, giving love, and food, but more importantly, the Word:thumbsup:And even though I have a “home” church, I will go where the Holy Spirit leads me, participating in outreaches for Christ, street ministry, prayer circles, and the like. God has called us to be the hands and feet of Christ, to take the message of His love to the lost! Thank you again! God bless you. I may leave a church, but I will never leave my Saviour!

 

[1beleevr]

abucs: Arrogance, thy name is abucs! And I never knew that Peter had a son; I knew that he married, because Jesus healed Peter’s mother-in-law! And Jesus founded Christianity, on Himself, hence the nameCHRISTian! What if someone dared to say,“What if, when Christ said, upon this Rock, I will build MY church; He meant Himself?” And no where in the Bible, does Christ compel His followers(you and I) to visit a priest for contession. And can’t find the word transsubstantiation in the Bible either. So, when we take communion, and we are using unleavened bread, and fruit of the vine, as Christ did at the Last Supper(each disciple got to hold his own piece of bread, and drink from the cup) we are doing it in remembrance of Him:thumbsup:And hold your hats, but Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with the Living God, through His Son, Jesus Christ! Religion is man’s attempt to get back to God, started in the Garden, after the fall. God gave us the way to return to Him, His name s Jesus:thumbsup: We know that it is nearly impossible to keep the Ten Commandments, but we also know that we are no longer under the penalty of the Law. And I guess you could say, that we all have Judaic roots, in one way or another. Peter was a Jew, and Jesus, in His earthly form was raised a Jew, so whoever the church was founded on, was a Jew FAITH DOES NOT DWELL IN THE HOUSE OF CERTAINTY!!

 

[rbarcia]

Who is to decide in which passages the Bible talks about spiritual brothers, blood brothers, cousins, uncles, etc.? You? Me? Someone who was born 1700 years after the facts? Or those who lived in the same era and gave us these facts, those who had Authority and knowledge, both given to them by Jesus Himself so they could guide His flock? Precisely those Early Christians are the ones that taught us that Mary, by the Grace of God, was kept from sin as She was to receive God in Her womb, and remained a Virgin forever. If your read the previous posts in this thread you’ll find all the biblical passages that confirm what the Church Fathers taught us.

What? You know someone who lived back then? You talked to someone who lived in the same era? So early Christians taught you directly. How old are you? 2000 years old? Or do you try to interpret ecf as clear and the Bible as confusing

Show us then the passages from Scripture that irrefutable state that Mary gave birth to the “brothers and sisters”, give us the passages that show us they were born from no other woman but Mary.

Psalm 69: 7-8
7 Because for Your sake I have borne reproach;
Shame has covered my face.
8 I have become a stranger to my brothers,
And an alien to my mother’s children;

 

[Prieldedi]

The debate going on in this thread is not that new to Christianity as I previously thought. I was looking for historical facts regarding when did the Protestants started to denied Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. I came upon a web page in which St. Jerome, a Doctor of the Church, confronts Helvidius, who [from the web page] “maintained that the mention in the Gospels of the ‘sisters’ and ‘brethren’ of our Lord was proof that the Blessed Virgin had subsequent issue, and he supported his opinion by the writings of Tertullian and Victorinus.”

It’s obvious that Helvidius had no effect on the Christian fold of then nor on the Christians of the following 13 centuries. It seems to me that Protestants in the 1600~1700’s picked up where Helvidius left of, but by that time the Protestant camp had grown into many different churches with different teachings. Helvidius position was used then in the ongoing confrontation between Protestants and the Catholic Church. Lutherans, Calvinists and Anglicans, who started Protestantism, although also in confrontation with the Catholic Church, did not support this new position. They felt the same way Catholics felt.

Jerome’s The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary was written ca. 383 AD. I invite all posters and readers of this thread to read it. Just click on the link.

God bless you

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Nice try but that psalm in no way states that Mary had other children than Jesus biologically.

And why is it that people who lived much, much closer to the time frame of Christ’s earthly life weren’t correcting the people who referred to Mary as ‘ever Virgin’? She was spoken of as being ever Virgin (I mean in WRITING) as early as around AD 230, about 200 years or less from the time of Jesus’ resurrection.

Let’s put that in perspective. When I married, my husband’s grandmother was alive at age 93. She, as a child, had visited HER great-grandmother, at the time close to 100 years old herself but hale and hearty. My husband’s grandmother was born in 1887; her great grandmother was born in 1799.

So in the 1980s, when I spoke with Emmy (grandmother), I was speaking with a woman who had spoken herself with a woman born nearly 200 years ago.

It was entirely possible for there to have been people who likewise knew people who had spoken with ‘witnesses’ to Christ’s life and death, and certainly to the later apostolic years.

So, where are the witnesses saying, “That’s a crock --Mary had several other children and we knew it!”

 

[1beleevr]

Mary Magdelene was not married to Jesus, but she was the first to see the risen Christ! And she couldn’t have been the woman caught in adultery, this woman was never named

 

[Prieldedi]

What? You know someone who lived back then? You talked to someone who lived in the same era? So early Christians taught you directly. How old are you? 2000 years old? Or do you try to interpret ecf as clear and the Bible as confusing

Psalm 69: 7-8
7 Because for Your sake I have borne reproach;
Shame has covered my face.
8 I have become a stranger to my brothers,
And an alien to my mother’s children;

I know someone who knew someone, who knew someone, who knew someone… who knew someone who lived back then.

We have Apostolic Succession. Just a you have your father, who had his father, who had his father… If in the course of centuries you can’t go farther than say, 10 generations in your family, we in the Catholic Family can go back to Adam. It’s not needed for me to personally know someone who lived back then. I’m not 2000 years old, but my Church is.

Ezekiel 44:2, "Yahweh said to me, “This gate will be kept shut. No one will open it or go through it, since Yahweh the God of Israel has been through it. And so it must be kept shut".”

This is a prophesy about Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. Who was in Mary’s womb and was born from Mary? GOD! “The God of Israel has been through Her. And so it must be kept shut.”

God bless you

 

[Prieldedi]

Psalm 69: 7-8
7 Because for Your sake I have borne reproach;
Shame has covered my face.
8 I have become a stranger to my brothers,
And an alien to my mother’s children;

“Brothers” here are many of the disciples that turned around on Him and never came back. (John 6:66)
“My mother’s children” are the Jews.
What was Jesus “mother land”? Judea. (Matthew 2:1)

God bless you

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi: W-O-W! I am learning so much; first of all that Peter had a son(according to abucs) that catholics could trace their heritage back to Adam, and that Ezekiel 44:2, refers to Mary I have gained a whole new perspective on the entire Bible after doing a historical Bible study 3 years ago! I heard a reference made to the east gate, but not in the context of it being about Mary, but because God entered the Temple through that gate! I also have never heard of Mary being referred to as the new Ark of the Covenant, but in order to venerate, praise and worship her, I suppose one would have to elevate her to a lofty position! For a reference to Christ Jesus, read 2 Samuel 14:14!

 

[Prieldedi]

prieldedi: W-O-W! I am learning so much; first of all that Peter had a son(according to abucs) that catholics could trace their heritage back to Adam, and that Ezekiel 44:2, refers to Mary I have gained a whole new perspective on the entire Bible after doing a historical Bible study 3 years ago! I heard a reference made to the east gate, but not in the context of it being about Mary, but because God entered the Temple through that gate! I also have never heard of Mary being referred to as the new Ark of the Covenant, but in order to venerate, praise and worship her, I suppose one would have to elevate her to a lofty position! For a reference to Christ Jesus, read 2 Samuel 14:14!

Great!

1 Peter 5:13, “Greetings from the community in Babylon, gathered by God, and from my son, Mark.”

Mary is the human being (created by God) that has a closer relation with the Holy Trinity than anyone else.

She is the daughter of the Father, the first person of the Holy Trinity.
She is the mother of Jesus, the second person of the Holy Trinity.
She is the wife of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Holy Trinity.
Jesus is the only person that chose His own mother.
Jesus taught His disciples for 3 years only. Just lmagine that He taught His mother for many more.

Luke 1: 46-49, “And Mary said: ‘My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit exults in God my savior! He has looked upon his servant in her lowliness, and people forever will call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, Holy is his Name!’”
Holy Scripture was inspired by God. He commands us through Mary’s words to venerate Her… people forever will call me blessed.

Finally, do you know what happened to Uzzah?

2 Samuel 6:6-9, “When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, the oxen stumbled and Uzzah stretched his hand to the ark of God to hold it. Yahweh’s anger burnt against Uzzah and God struck him there; Uzzah died there beside the ark of God. David was angry because Yahweh had struck Uzzah, and that place is called Perez-Uzzah to the present day.”

Being Mary the New Ark of the Covenant, who would dare to “touch” Her?

“The New Testament lies hidden in the Old. The Old Testament is revealed in the New.”
Saint Augustine (354-430 A.D.)

God bless you

 

[w_stewart]

w_stewart: At least you read it right this time Did you find trinity, purgatory or rapture in the Bible yet? It may not be the sole source of faith, but it is God’s inerrant Word! So the catholics took the Old Testament from the Jews, the New Testament from the early believers, put them together, and called it the Bible? And the catholic church was started by a Jew, right?

Yes. By Christ himself.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Um, the early believers WERE Catholics. As early as AD 110 St. Ignatius spoke of them as such. . .“where the bishop is, there is the catholic church. .”

 

[abucs]

abucs: Arrogance, thy name is abucs! And I never knew that Peter had a son; I knew that he married, because Jesus healed Peter’s mother-in-law! And Jesus founded Christianity, on Himself, hence the nameCHRISTian! What if someone dared to say,“What if, when Christ said, upon this Rock, I will build MY church; He meant Himself?” And no where in the Bible, does Christ compel His followers(you and I) to visit a priest for contession. And can’t find the word transsubstantiation in the Bible either. So, when we take communion, and we are using unleavened bread, and fruit of the vine, as Christ did at the Last Supper(each disciple got to hold his own piece of bread, and drink from the cup) we are doing it in remembrance of Him:thumbsup:And hold your hats, but Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with the Living God, through His Son, Jesus Christ! Religion is man’s attempt to get back to God, started in the Garden, after the fall. God gave us the way to return to Him, His name s Jesus:thumbsup: We know that it is nearly impossible to keep the Ten Commandments, but we also know that we are no longer under the penalty of the Law. And I guess you could say, that we all have Judaic roots, in one way or another. Peter was a Jew, and Jesus, in His earthly form was raised a Jew, so whoever the church was founded on, was a Jew FAITH DOES NOT DWELL IN THE HOUSE OF CERTAINTY!!

1 Peter 5:13 - The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark.

Now this may be a spirtual son. I have no problem with that. economicexpert.com/a/Mark:the:Evangelist.html
But it kind of further weakens the already weak case for Jesus’ brothers being Mary’s sons.

Catholics are not compelled to go to confession. No one knocks down the door and forces you into the back of a car ! When Jesus was ressurrected he told the apostles to go out and preach to all the world and the sins you forgive, are forgiven, and the sins you retain are retained. He thought that after his ressurrection these were important enough words to speak them and John thought the words were important enough to write them in his Gospel. Nobody is compelled to go to confession but it’s kind of Christianity 101 for the church to continue this practice.

In English for the Lords supper we read - do this in memory of me. The Greek word used for the English memory is ‘memorial’ and the word has ceremonial overtones. It is mentioned in all 4 gospels as well as in Pauls epistles and so is obviously very important. Jesus specifically asks us to do this as a memorial to him in all of the main writings at a crucial time of his ministry to the Apostles. This widely reported practice of early Christians cannot simply be ignored or played down as not very important. Christianity 101 again.

With the - ‘You are Cephas and on this Cephas i build my Church’ I don’t know if you’ve been to Northern Israel and Philippi but there is a huge rock there that used to (and still does) dominate the landscape. It was the centre of pagan worship. It is no co-incidence that Matthew has Jesus and the disciples going all the way to Philippi to stand in front of the huge rock temple of pagan worship to make the statement -

'Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father Which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm
nicenetruth.com/home/2008/07/less-frequently.html
defendingthebride.com/church.html

Near this huge temple is a chasm which goes down hundreds of feet and it is called - ‘the gates of Hell’ by the locals so we know Jesus was making a huge point there, and Matthew has the disciples going all the way to Philippi for no other reason but for this statement in front of a Pagan rock temple which was a centre of pagan worship.

With transtubstantiation not being in the bible. The Bible was translated from Greek to Latin by Saint Jerome. The ‘Our Father’ prayer that Jesus is reported to have given when asked how we should pray is given in Matthew and Luke. When today we say ‘our DAILY bread’ in the original Greek the word we use for daily was ’ epiousion’. This Greek word appears to have been a Christian invention because it does not appear in any other Greek writing context. Usually this happens when a new thing is being described for which there is no existing word to cover it. So where do we get ‘daily’ from ? When Saint Jerome translated the word ‘epiousion’ into Latin he first translated it as '“panis supersubstantialem” for the Gospel of Matthew and then secondly into the Latin word for ‘daily’ in the following gospel of Luke.

We say ‘daily’ in our Lords prayer today because of the tradition. Back in the original church it was considered both daily and supersubstantial. It is only the habit of Christians choosing the second ‘daily’ use, probably because it flows better when saying the Lord’s prayer in languages such as English.

The fact remains that the original Greek word is ‘epiousion’ which was a new word and not simply the Greek equivalent of the English ‘daily’. And this new word was first translated as ‘panis supersubstantialem’.

Call me arrogant if you want, but i think it is arrogant to read the Church’s bible in English and then try and tell the church they don’t know what they are doing because it doesn’t fit in with your own interpretations 2000 years later !!!

This is the downside of being outside of the continuous tradition of the church. You may be a Christian and you may be a much better Christian than me. Good luck to you if you are. But unless you have a firm foundation in a continuous Christian tradition that goes back to Jesus, you are in danger of making things up as you go. Especially when the only guide you have is the bible separated by 2000 years and you try and use your own interpretations of that bible against the church that it comes from.

adoremus.org/0707SupersubstantialBread.html

 

[Don_Hepler]

I know someone who knew someone, who knew someone, who knew someone… who knew someone who lived back then.

We have Apostolic Succession. Just a you have your father, who had his father, who had his father… If in the course of centuries you can’t go farther than say, 10 generations in your family, we in the Catholic Family can go back to Adam. It’s not needed for me to personally know someone who lived back then. I’m not 2000 years old, but my Church is.

Ezekiel 44:2, “Yahweh said to me, “This gate will be kept shut. No one will open it or go through it, since Yahweh the God of Israel has been through it. And so it must be kept shut”.”

This is a prophesy about Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. Who was in Mary’s womb and was born from Mary? GOD! “The God of Israel has been through Her. And so it must be kept shut.”

God bless you

You’ve got to be kidding me…I have seen deception before, but you top them all. You have no concept of the Gate, You can’t trace your history, If you could, you would’t be saying what your saying. There is no Prophesy of Mary’s perpetual Virginity. There is about her Virginity but then it ended when the Highest over shadow her. You expect to say the sky is green and everyone believes you… This is what I am talking about you steal our scriptures (Israel) and you apply your interpretation to it. Her is referred to the church as well, You shame the God of Israel… by putting your thoughts to his thinking. You cannot interpret scripture, YOU are a embarrassment to those who know the writings of Israel.

 

[Prieldedi]

You’ve got to be kidding me…I have seen deception before, but you top them all. You have no concept of the Gate, You can’t trace your history, If you could, you would’t be saying what your saying. There is no Prophesy of Mary’s perpetual Virginity. There is about her Virginity but then it ended when the Highest over shadow her. You expect to say the sky is green and everyone believes you… This is what I am talking about you steal our scriptures (Israel) and you apply your interpretation to it. Her is referred to the church as well, You shame the God of Israel… by putting your thoughts to his thinking. You cannot interpret scripture, YOU are a embarrassment to those who know the writings of Israel.

What I say are not my own words, neither my personal interpretation of the Scriptures. They are what our Church teaches.

If you knew the Truth about our Church you are the one who wouldn’t be saying what you are saying.

Apostolic Succession: Every priest is ordained by the laying on of hands by a Bishop. The new priest is usually younger than the Bishop, who before being a Bishop was a young priest that was ordained by an older Bishop… who in turn was ordained by another Bishop, who in turn was ordained by another Bishop, who in turn was ordained by another Bishop… all the way back to one of the Apostles. That’s why it’s called Apostolic Succession. I know my Bishop. That’s why I said what I said.

The Apostles knew they would not live forever, so they made provision to perpetuate the clergy by the ‘laying on of hands’ for new Priests, Deacons, and Bishops. This is known also as the Sacrament of Holy Orders. It’s in John 15:15-16, Acts 13:3,14:22,19:6, 1 Cor 3:10-11, 1 Tim 3:8-13,4:14,5:22, 2 Tim 1:6, Titus 1:5.

I believe in my Church because they received their Authority from Jesus Himself. My Church will never teach us that the sky is green! What the eyes can see everybody can see. But when your soul is the one that needs to see, you might be looking in the wrong places, so the Church is there to guide us. That’s why, knowing that Jesus is the Messiah, that He is God, that He left us a Teaching Church, that all the prophesies about the Messiah are fulfilled in Him, is that I believe in my Church.

Jesus, the Apostles, and many Early Christians were Jews. They took what was theirs, the Scriptures, and the Apostles were told by God Himself that there was a New Covenant, this time for the whole world. Most of the Jews living then did not recognized the Son of God. They were expecting something different, a warrior, a general to defeat the Romans in war. But God had different plans, plans that most Jews then didn’t understand or accept. They Had Him in front of their very eyes and rejected Him. The rest is history. These Apostles and other disciples took Jesus message to all the corners of the world. There has been no other undertaking like this in the history of mankind.

All this is not the work of man, it’s the work of God thorough the men He chose.

I stand by the prophesies about Mary’s Perpetual Virginity because my Church teaches them.

God bless you

 

[Janet1983]

Hebrews 13:17, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are concerned for your souls and are accountable for them. Let this be a joy for them rather than a burden, which would be of no advantage for you.”

There are no conditions, it’s an order. “Obey”. For 1500 years people were obedient. Then rebellion appeared. With our 21st Century understanding of the world many people believe that “democracy” should invade Christianity. Our 21st Century culture is so imbeded in our minds that when we read Hebrews 13:17 we usually think that “it was meant for past times, not for our time.” We are modern, free, we believe and have achieved democracy, etc. These are the times of “human rights”, not the times of “human duties”.

Apart from the fact that the word “obey” in this context might as well be translated as “agree”, “assure”, “believe”, “have confidence”, “be confident”, “trust and yield” and others there is another thing:
The problem is that many (like me) do not regard the pope as their “leader”. We are to obey the law of the land, but that does not include unconditional obedience to an authority as the pope.
Our true ruler however is Jesus Christ and Him we will obey unconditionally, led and comforted by the Holy Spirit through the grace of our Father who is in heaven.

Romans 12:2
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[Don_Hepler]

What I say are not my own words, neither my personal interpretation of the Scriptures. They are what our Church teaches.

If you knew the Truth about our Church you are the one who wouldn’t be saying what you are saying.

Apostolic Succession: Every priest is ordained by the laying on of hands by a Bishop. The new priest is usually younger than the Bishop, who before being a Bishop was a young priest that was ordained by an older Bishop… who in turn was ordained by another Bishop, who in turn was ordained by another Bishop, who in turn was ordained by another Bishop… all the way back to one of the Apostles. That’s why it’s called Apostolic Succession. I know my Bishop. That’s why I said what I said.

The Apostles knew they would not live forever, so they made provision to perpetuate the clergy by the ‘laying on of hands’ for new Priests, Deacons, and Bishops. This is known also as the Sacrament of Holy Orders. It’s in John 15:15-16, Acts 13:3,14:22,19:6, 1 Cor 3:10-11, 1 Tim 3:8-13,4:14,5:22, 2 Tim 1:6, Titus 1:5.

I believe in my Church because they received their Authority from Jesus Himself. My Church will never teach us that the sky is green! What the eyes can see everybody can see. But when your soul is the one that needs to see, you might be looking in the wrong places, so the Church is there to guide us. That’s why, knowing that Jesus is the Messiah, that He is God, that He left us a Teaching Church, that all the prophesies about the Messiah are fulfilled in Him, is that I believe in my Church.

Jesus, the Apostles, and many Early Christians were Jews. They took what was theirs, the Scriptures, and the Apostles were told by God Himself that there was a New Covenant, this time for the whole world. Most of the Jews living then did not recognized the Son of God. They were expecting something different, a warrior, a general to defeat the Romans in war. But God had different plans, plans that most Jews then didn’t understand or accept. They Had Him in front of their very eyes and rejected Him. The rest is history. These Apostles and other disciples took Jesus message to all the corners of the world. There has been no other undertaking like this in the history of mankind.

All this is not the work of man, it’s the work of God thorough the men He chose.

I stand by the prophesies about Mary’s Perpetual Virginity because my Church teaches them.

God bless you

Thank you You should believe what you are taught, if that is what your church teaches, I am familier with your teachings that is why I find it hard to understand what, and why you believe what you do. Have you ever done research for the sake of learning on your own, rather than just except, not trying to be disrespectful but Blind faith. Suppose your church is wrong in your authority line, That Peter wasn’t what you thought he was, that there is a broken line of authority. Suppose all that you believed was true, wasn’t. Like the world is flat, People believed that, and would preach it and die for their belief. then one day they were proven wrong. That is where I stand. What if.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Who is to decide in which passages the Bible talks about spiritual brothers, blood brothers, cousins, uncles, etc.? You? Me? Someone who was born 1700 years after the facts? Or those who lived in the same era and gave us these facts, those who had Authority and knowledge, both given to them by Jesus Himself so they could guide His flock? Precisely those Early Christians are the ones that taught us that Mary, by the Grace of God, was kept from sin as She was to receive God in Her womb, and remained a Virgin forever. If your read the previous posts in this thread you’ll find all the biblical passages that confirm what the Church Fathers taught us.

Show us then the passages from Scripture that irrefutable state that Mary gave birth to the “brothers and sisters”, give us the passages that show us they were born from no other woman but Mary.

In the meantime, I’ll give this genealogy of the Brethren prepared by Bob Stanley:

GENEALOGY:

        ---Zebedee------Mt 4:21, Mk 1:19, Mk 3:17----------------

        + >------begat--------James and John-------------------------

        ---Salome------------Mt 27:56, Mk 15:40--------------------


        ---Cleophas-(Alphaeus)--Mt 10:2-3, Jn 19:25, Acts 1:13------

        + >------begat------James (the less), Joseph (Joses), and Jude---------

        ---Mary----the other Mary, Mt 27:56,61, 28:1, Jn 19:25------


        ---THE HOLY SPIRIT------Lk 1:35-38----------------------

        + >------begat------JESUS THE CHRIST--------------------

        ---Mary---------------------Lk 1:30-38-----------------------

This ‘Genealogy’ shows who the real parents of the ‘brothers’ in Mark 6:3, and Matthew 13:55, are, and makes the word ‘brother’ a non-argument.

“Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . ‘brothers’ really means ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”
Martin Luther, (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39).

The question I ask Protestants is: why did it take 1700-1800 years to start to question Mary’s Perpetual Virginity? Don’t use the argument that Catholics were “forced” to believe in Mary’s Virginity because it’s not true. Between the Resurrection and Luther, how many Christians lived? Millions! Do you really believe all of them were brain washed? Be careful in using this argument, because it might explode in front of you too. Atheist use it against all believers. They say we all have been brain washed to believe in God.

So give us the Bible passage that states that Mary gave birth to those kids. Go ahead, pick up your Bible and prove it. I’ll wait…

Have you noticed that the “brothers and sisters” of Jesus are missing too when Jesus was lost in the temple? At least Jesus was found, the others are still lost. They are missing again at the wedding in Cana, a family event. They were not a the Cross when their brother was dying, they were not there when He was buried (with brothers like this who needs cousins!), they were missing when Jesus resurrected. Even more, the sisters are nameless! We know about Mary Magdalene, the other Mary, Salome, we even know the name of the High Priest servant, Malchus, whose ear was cut by Peter… and we don’t have the slightest idea of the names of the Lord’s sisters? Please!

In the end, when Jesus is dying at the cross, He asks John to take care of his mother. Couldn’t He have said “ask my brother (fill in the name) or my sister (fill in the name) to take care of my Mother?” He didn’t because there were none (John 19:27 “… And from that moment the disciple took Her to his own home.”)

The truth is that these brief passages can’t prove that Mary was their biological mother. Therefore the biological “brothers and sisters” of the Lord are nonexistent. Cousins is the logical relationship. There is also a tradition between many Catholics that if in fact they were half brothers, the children of Joseph from a previous marriage. We can’t prove it to be true, and you can’t denied it either.

Go to the Early Christians, to those who lived closer in time than any of us to Jesus. Read what they say about it in particular and about Christianity in general, you’ll be surprised to find that it’s the same message then as today… 2000 years! The protestant message has changed so much in the last 100~150 years to prove it wrong. In the 1850’s there were less than 400 Protestant churches, today there are more than 39,000.

God bless you

rearcia, I gave this to them(genealogy) back a long time ago and they will not believe they think its some thing they can hold over cathloics heards. If we had brother and Sister of Jesus where would they be buried some place in the world and that place be crying out loud