Jesus' Words on the Cross

[randirhoades]

Greetings my beloved friends,

Boy, do I have it all wrong. I always thought that Jesus was crying out in pain and torture like we would if we were in that situation. (For he was 100% percent human) I know Jesus was having a hard time breathing with his arms stretched out as they were ( it was affecting his lungs) and he pushed his feet up to catch his breath even though they were nailed. (which he did for three hours) But now reading the answers, I guess I better go back to Catechism. lol

Love ya’ll

Sheila

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Greetings my beloved friends,

Boy, do I have it all wrong. I always thought that Jesus was crying out in pain and torture like we would if we were in that situation. (For he was 100% percent human) I know Jesus was having a hard time breathing with his arms stretched out as they were ( it was affecting his lungs) and he pushed his feet up to catch his breath even though they were nailed. (which he did for three hours) But now reading the answers, I guess I better go back to Catechism. lol

Love ya’ll

Sheila

Sheila, for some reason I was drawn to answer this post and quite honestly I don’t know what I’m “supposed” to say.

All I can say is that I feel like I’m already in heaven and since I’m reading your post I have to assume that somehow we are in some sort of unity.

I wish you well, and peace to you and your loved ones. Do not be afraid; everybody who is on any path that really matters is going to encounter some challenges.

Peace and ,
Alan

 

[Sneakypete]

Another of Jesus’ final Words was, “It is finished.” Many of our Evangelical brothers and sisters interpret this as the completion of His Ministry. I have also heard others say that it is signifying the request to His Father to take Him home. I heard one of the guests from CAL mention that those words were also in the OT and fulfilled yet another prophesy. Any thoughts from my esteemed friends on this forum?
May God Bless

 

[fred_stoutland]

What is the teaching behinds Jesus’ words, “My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?”

This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1, one of many parallels between that psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion. It has been difficult to understand in what sense Jesus was “forsaken” by God. It is certain that God approved His work. It is certain that He was innocent. He had done nothing to forfeit the favor of God. As His own Son - holy, harmless, undefiled, and obedient - God still loved Him. In none of these senses could God have forsaken Him.

However, Isaiah tells us that “he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53:4-5). He redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). He was made a sin-offering, and He died in our place, on our account, that He might bring us near to God. It was this, doubtless, which caused His intense sufferings. It was the manifestation of God’s hatred of sin, in some way which He has not explained, that Jesus experienced in that terrible hour. It was suffering endured by Him that was due to us, and suffering by which, and by which alone, we can be saved from eternal death.

So, in those awful moments, I believe Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment as God placed the sins of the world on Him – and because of that had to “turn away” from Jesus. As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was experiencing separation from God for the only time in all of eternity. It was at this time that 2 Corinthians 5:21 occurred, “God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” Jesus became sin for us, so He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin always produces, except that in His case, it was not His sin – it was ours.

 

[Big_Ro]

Big Ro, maybe it will help to know how a so-called “psychotic” like me reads your subliminal clues. Once the subliminal ones set in, the stage is set for assumptions that you didn’t make but somehow “communicated.”

That doesn’t bother me. The biggest line forms behind the wide path, not the narrow one.

you don’t see this as I see it.

Parents love children, whether they squander money or judge their younger brother, or not.

Yes, my human (not robotic) reaction comes across to my alleged “beautiful mind” as being judmental or nonhuman, or both.

I’m sorry but I have a huge headache from writing this, because if my wife knew I revealed her secrets on how to “really” hear somebody’s words, she’d kill me.
So, I’ll keep it short and maybe check on the rest of your post later.

thank you… God bless you too. We are all human and despite our differences, we are made to love each other and can’t help it – even if we have a hard time showing it because the embarrasment causes triggers in the words that catalyze empathy.

Alan

I’m sorry if I upset you and didn’t mean to come off as uncharitable. I certainly did not intend to imply you are psychotic. I read and re-read my post and just don’t see it but out of a sense of humilty and charity I will apologize anyway.

I also, just now went back and re-read the parable in question. I have read this particular parable many, many times and have read dozens of commentaries and explanations of it’s meanings. I really like the parables. I still don’t see how the father in the story judges his son. He says that he was lost, but I take that to mean that he was lost as in not present and wherabouts unknown. I’m sure any parent that has lost touch with a child would feel as if their child was lost and in many senses dead. A horrific situation to be sure. I have three wonderful children and couldn’t imagine not knowing where they are or what their situation might be. I saw that you have six (wow!!) so I’m sure you would agree.

Yes parents love their children even when their behavior is disappointing like my daughter at school today. She’s usually a model kid, but when she spins out it’s a doozey. Too much like her father as I’m sure you will attest.

I think the poster was drawing an analogy of a son returning rather than comparing Christ to the prodigal son. This would of course be absurd. I may have been over-generous, but it’s my nature.

As far as subliminal messages…really. I was certainly going for subtext, but subliminal. I didn’t know I had that power. I’ll try to put it better use.

The last paragraph is difficult for my pea brain to understand. You’re welcome to explain or simply ignore me. Again sorry for upsetting you. My apologies.

 

[Salvatore123]

Fred,

I say this - and I do not do so in a condescending manner: yours is the best explanation yet to what Jesus was doing.

Although Jesus was singularly crucified for his alleged “transgressions”, it is a grave mistake to think that Jesus, at any time, felt abandoned by God. This was impossible for him. One must read the ENTIRE Psalm - it is a prayer by a righteous man who is unfairly persecuted, but in the end, he is vindicated.

But even more importantly, one must understand that by becoming man and dying on the cross, Jesus was doing this ON BEHALF OF MAN. As such, he was speaking to God FOR MAN, and we certainly would feel “lost” while on the cross. So although Christ was speaking the words of someone who would be justified in feeling abandoned at that moment, Christ certainly did not. He was speaking FOR ALL MANKIND, as the redeemer.

Thus, when one reads the entire Psalm and combines that with Jesus’s voluntary assumption of all of man’s tribulations and presents them to God, it becomes easy to understand that Jesus prays a prayer that not only cries out to God, but also prays a prayer where deliverance is promised.

It is the ultimate prayer of trust and faith.

 

[gspmcc1]

I believe that Jesus was reciting the Psalms from memory as He hung on the cross. The “words” that appear in the Gospels are fragments that John and other heard aloud.

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

So, in those awful moments, I believe Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment as God placed the sins of the world on Him – and because of that had to “turn away” from Jesus. As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was experiencing separation from God for the only time in all of eternity. It was at this time that 2 Corinthians 5:21 occurred, “God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” Jesus became sin for us, so He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin always produces, except that in His case, it was not His sin – it was ours.

Again, God separating from God? That would be to say there was no trinity for that period of time, leaving either temporary Arianism or Ditheism. Such a view can also suggests Jesus went to the Hell of the damned (at least spiritually). Jesus became a sin offering, He did not get transformed into sin

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I’m sorry if I upset you and didn’t mean to come off as uncharitable. I certainly did not intend to imply you are psychotic. I read and re-read my post and just don’t see it but out of a sense of humilty and charity I will apologize anyway.

When I was born of the spirit a couple weeks ago (verified by my psychiatrist and my pastor) I quit seeing anything as “uncharitable” because I no longer perceive any sin. I saw nothing uncharitable, and if it sounded like I thought that, I’d love to hear what I wrote that came across that way so I may become more sensitive.

To apologize for something you don’t think you have done, IMO, is an act of surrender, self-mortification, beautiful humility without groveling, and all around wonderful.

I’m very impressed with your writing. Truth is, I haven’t read all of your post yet because I wanted to quickly respond to the idea I might have seen you as uncharitable.

Now that you mention it, I wish to apologize to any posters to whom I may have been uncharitable, whether it was my heart’s intent or not. Just tell me if I am, and I will become a better person and you will have helped me take a better path.

Thanks again for your reply. I’ve had quite an interesting day. Early this morning at adoration, I experienced the most intense feeling of evil that I’ve ever encountered. It lasted only a minute or less, and before the children’s Mass today I told my pastor about it. His sermon was inspired, and after Mass I told him my theory and he said is was plausible. I told him that I could tell from his sermon that the evil had gone into him, and that he spread it to the congregation, and then it went into the piano player (I am a church piano player too so I am sensitive to these things) through the music, then back to me, then I don’t know where it went.

Anyway, thank you and may God bless you.

Alan

 

[Salvatore123]

Fred,

One thing I wanted to point out if I did not make it clear - although I agreed with much of what you said, note that I said it was impossible for Christ to feel like he was abandoned by God. To feel abandoned is to be separated, and that is the primary thing with which I disagree with your post.

Second, another thing I did not mention but people often (including myself, earlier) forget, is that those listening to Christ misunderstood him! Remember that those within hearing distance of Christ thought he was speaking to or calling on Elijah! But he was not. The Gospel rendering of Christ’s words on the cross are a combination of Hebrew AND Aramamaic, which is then translated into Greek. WE, with the benefit of looking back, realize that Christ was crying the righteous prayer from the Psalm. And remember that Psalms, although deeply personal prayers, were primarily prayed by groups crying out to God about their suffering, but knowing that their prayers will be heard by God.

That, I believe, is the key: Christ, having taking on the role of redeeming ALL of mankind during the entire Passion, is justified in choosing and saying the Psalm that he did, but even in his most painful moment, look at what he chose: the Psalm where the righteous man is vindicated by a righteous God.

Christ and God were never separated and Christ never felt abandoned personally. The prayer was a collective one on behalf of those for whom he died, and WE whom he prayed for ARE separated from God - and often - but we seek to be reunited with God one day through our prayers, our sorrow for hurting God, our “working out our salvation with fear and trembling”, the whole of our existence.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

When I was born of the spirit a couple weeks ago (verified by my psychiatrist and my pastor) I quit seeing anything as “uncharitable” because I no longer perceive any sin. I saw nothing uncharitable, and if it sounded like I thought that, I’d love to hear what I wrote that came across that way so I may become more sensitive.

I may have been revealing something I shouldn’t have, or in a way I shouldn’t have.

Let’s just put it this way: I was “incurably ill” and now I’m better than ever before.

My doctor is seeing me every day, not so much to medicate as to observe my rapid progress.

My wife has been extremely sick for a long time and last night confessed to me she thinks the problem is very serious, and right now she’s resting peacefully, with the symptoms completely gone beyond recognition.

These may be coincidences. This what you want, but when I say “born qf the spirit” I mean that I feel more peace and joy and serenity than I’ve ever even imagined before, and I now know that my wife, both body and brain, are gorgeous to me.

If I’m not in heaven, then I’d like anybody to tell me something I’m missing and then I’ll add that to my “imaginary” heaven. Or is it the heaven of my dreams, hallucinations, or do I really feel this peace and joy and other good things? I don’t know but I can tell you I wanted to die and even die a horrible death at one time, but now I have nothing but zeal for life as it is and even the mean things people have done to me in the past make sense now.

If that tells you anything, then please disregard my comment about being “born of the Spirit.”

Alan

 

[randirhoades]

HI AlanfromWichita,

Awww, what a nice reply from what I posted. Doesn’t make me feel so dufusy. just joking. I guess compassion and sympathy came out of me when I envisioned Christ on the cross plus, tears are shed to the point that my heart breaks. Jesus was such a good, good man and for him to suffer like that even though it was his fate has my human mind tortured. And I suffer with the Virgin Mary. I am a simple person and what is said here and the debate that is going on is something I cannot fathom. I also don’t like arguing of any form which I have seen here on Catholic Forums. Furthermore, I don’t know what I am going to do around Good Friday. Probably walk the floor in sorrow.

I also thought too when in the garden Jesus asked if the cup could be pass from him and in my mind, again, he is 100% human. Therefore my deduction. Christ knew the ordeal was going to be horrendous. Thus the bloody brow/sweat. Now if this has something to do with the glorifying of us, the future or whatever, I will let the more read about the subject handle it.

God knows my heart and has given me an understanding one for things I can fathom. Once being a Director for mental and VA patients—compassion and worry for abused children, abortions, my daughter, a medic in the Navy being deployed four times because she is needed and more. These are the things on which my mind lingers. And of course the most important, Jesus Christ and my Christianity. And God knows my heart.

But most of all, I think you rock! And many blessings to you and your family.

Love,

§heila

 

[Big_Ro]

I may have been revealing something I shouldn’t have, or in a way I shouldn’t have.

Let’s just put it this way: I was “incurably ill” and now I’m better than ever before.

My doctor is seeing me every day, not so much to medicate as to observe my rapid progress.

My wife has been extremely sick for a long time and last night confessed to me she thinks the problem is very serious, and right now she’s resting peacefully, with the symptoms completely gone beyond recognition.

These may be coincidences. This what you want, but when I say “born qf the spirit” I mean that I feel more peace and joy and serenity than I’ve ever even imagined before, and I now know that my wife, both body and brain, are gorgeous to me.

If I’m not in heaven, then I’d like anybody to tell me something I’m missing and then I’ll add that to my “imaginary” heaven. Or is it the heaven of my dreams, hallucinations, or do I really feel this peace and joy and other good things? I don’t know but I can tell you I wanted to die and even die a horrible death at one time, but now I have nothing but zeal for life as it is and even the mean things people have done to me in the past make sense now.

If that tells you anything, then please disregard my comment about being “born of the Spirit.”

Alan

This is wonderful to hear Alan. Not sure why you shouldn’t have revealed that your were born in spirit. Sounds personal so no need to explain. God’s ways are mysterious and unscrutible. I hope the healing peace of God’s presence stays with you. But remember, even when you don’t feel it as powerfully as you do today, he is still with you. I have at times felt God’s presence so close and so intensly. Other times, like now, I feel him far away from me. So, this particular thread has been very important for me. I, like Christ, am crying out “why have you foresaken me?” I now know this is an act of faith. Whew! Good thing for me. God bless and good luck.

 

[fhansen]

In His human nature I think Jesus was to experience even the abandonment we all may feel at times of suffering in our lives. In this way we know that He fully identifies with us-and that His suffering was no mere act. Living within this limited nature, He had to place trust in the Father-which He did-culminating in the resurrection-the absolute triumph over the ultimate abandonment known as death. Jesus’ use of prophecy was no conscious act either-it was a spontaneous expression- coming out of the mouth of the One of whom the prophecy speaks, as it should be.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

You guys are so great. I hate to sound like I think I’m “better” than anyone else because I’m not. IMO we are all seeded with the spirit; it just depends on how it grows and manifests itself in each of us. I guess there is nothing boastful in making that observation.

I have to go set a few fires myself, now…

:crying:

:clapping:

:tiphat:

:extrahappy:

:dancing:

 

[AlanFromWichita]

In His human nature I think Jesus was to experience even the abandonment we all may feel at times of suffering in our lives. In this way we know that He fully identifies with us-and that His suffering was no mere act. Living within this limited nature, He had to place trust in the Father-which He did-culminating in the resurrection-the absolute triumph over the ultimate abandonment known as death. Jesus’ use of prophecy was no conscious act either-it was a spontaneous expression- coming out of the mouth of the One of whom the prophecy speaks, as it should be.

I agree. He HAD to feel abandonment just like the rest of us, so he could “bounce” ever higher into heaven – kind of like a trampoline?

Alan

 

[Salvatore123]

The mystery of the hypostatic union in which Christ was one person with two natures - human and divine - makes Christ’s words on the cross both difficult and easy to understand, at the same time, if one takes things at “face value” and does not go further.

I. If one assumes Christ cried out only the recorded words and said nothing else, then surely, Christ must be asking why did God foresake him. Yet, simply because the gospel writers merely record the beginning of Psalm 21 that Christ begins to speak, does not mean that Christ does not finish the entire Psalm. It is quite reasonable (and very likely) that Christ prayed the entire Psalm (which is not a very long prayer).

II. Psalm 21 has special meaning because it details the entire Passion of Christ. In addition, by fulling assuming a human nature, Christ feels exactly what a human might feel at that point in time - a righteous person being executed in the most horrible manner known at that time. So when Christ speaks the beginning words of the Psalm, he is merely expressing what his human nature feels. But Christ, unlike a human with only a human nature, never despairs. Christ knows that, as the remainder of the Psalm states, God “has not slighted nor despised the supplication of the poor man. Neither has God turned away his face from me: and when I cried to him he heard me.”

III. Back to the hypostatic union - Christ could NEVER experience despair, as despair is a sin, and Christ could not sin. In addition, Christ could never feel foresaken by God, as Christ is also God incarnate. Christ’s divine nature could not permit him to feel foresaken at any point in time.

It is tempting, I admit, to want Christ to be like man so much that we sometimes forget his dual nature. And it is this mysterious dual nature, which man will never fully understand, that permits Christ to speak on behalf of man (who does despair) and yet not succumb to the feeling of an unjustly crucified righteous man - despair (which a divine being does not do).

In fact, it was at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, in an attempt to counter the Nestorian heresy that two persons existed in Christ, that the Church had to reign in the monophysites, who claimed that that the two natures in Christ, the Divine and the human, were so intimately united that they became physically one, inasmuch as the human nature was completely absorbed by the Divine. They concluded that Christ not only had one personality, but also one nature, because after the Incarnation, no distinction could be made in Christ between the Divine and the human.

Thus, the reason why I said above it could be both difficult and easy to understand the reaction of Christ on the cross. It was like a pendulum that had swung too far to one side, and then, swung too far to the other side.

 

[Nelka]

Psalm 22:

1 [For the choirmaster To ‘the Doe of the Dawn’ Psalm Of David] My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? The words of my groaning do nothing to save me.

2 My God, I call by day but you do not answer, at night, but I find no respite.

3 Yet you, the Holy One, who make your home in the praises of Israel,

4 in you our ancestors put their trust, they trusted and you set them free.

5 To you they called for help and were delivered; in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm, less than human, scorn of mankind, contempt of the people;

7 all who see me jeer at me, they sneer and wag their heads,

8 ‘He trusted himself to Yahweh, let Yahweh set him free! Let him deliver him, as he took such delight in him.’

9 It was you who drew me from the womb and soothed me on my mother’s breast.

10 On you was I cast from my birth, from the womb I have belonged to you.

11 Do not hold aloof, for trouble is upon me, and no one to help me!

12 Many bulls are encircling me, wild bulls of Bashan closing in on me.

13 Lions ravening and roaring open their jaws at me.

14 My strength is trickling away, my bones are all disjointed, my heart has turned to wax, melting inside me.

15 My mouth is dry as earthenware, my tongue sticks to my jaw. You lay me down in the dust of death.

16 A pack of dogs surrounds me, a gang of villains closing in on me as if to hack off my hands and my feet.

17 I can count every one of my bones, while they look on and gloat;

18 they divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

19 Yahweh, do not hold aloof! My strength, come quickly to my help,

20 rescue my soul from the sword, the one life I have from the grasp of the dog!

21 Save me from the lion’s mouth, my poor life from the wild bulls’ horns!

22 I shall proclaim your name to my brothers, praise you in full assembly:

23 ‘You who fear Yahweh, praise him! All the race of Jacob, honour him! Revere him, all the race of Israel!’

24 For he has not despised nor disregarded the poverty of the poor, has not turned away his face, but has listened to the cry for help.

25 Of you is my praise in the thronged assembly, I will perform my vows before all who fear him.

26 The poor will eat and be filled, those who seek Yahweh will praise him, ‘May your heart live for ever.’

27 The whole wide world will remember and return to Yahweh, all the families of nations bow down before him.

28 For to Yahweh, ruler of the nations, belongs kingly power!

29 All who prosper on earth will bow before him, all who go down to the dust will do reverence before him. And those who are dead,

30 their descendants will serve him, will proclaim his name to generations

31 still to come; and these will tell of his saving justice to a people yet unborn: he has fulfilled it.

 

[ryanoneil]

As others have mentioned, Jesus is evoking the entire plot of Ps 22, where the sufferer’s humiliation gives way to his vindication. I’m wondering if I’m connecting these next dots correctly?

In the previous chapter, at Jesus trial, he also said he would be vindicated when he was enthroned at God’s right hand and his enemies would become his footstool (Ps 110).

Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so. But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’” (Mt 26:64)

And a few chapters before that Jesus said Jerusalem and the Temple would be destoyed (Mt 23:37-38; 24:1-2). Then if we fast forward to Jesus on the cross. The chief priests, scribes, and elders quote Ps 22:8 when they say He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now if he wants him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’"

Then Jesus refers to Ps 22, where the sufferer’s humiliation gives way to his vindication. Might Jesus be directly responding to the Sanhedrin when he says this? Like at his trial, is Jesus saying something like this? “You think I am the victim, but I’m the victor. Soon I will go to the Father to recieve my kingdom and then judgment will come down on you.” Even the phenomena surrounding the Crucifixion (sun going down at noon and land trembling) recalls this idea.

Shall not the land tremble because of this, and all who dwell in it mourn, While it rises up and tosses like the Nile, and settles back like the river of Egypt? On that day, says the Lord GOD, I will make the sun set at midday and cover the earth with darkness in broad daylight. (Amos 8:8-9)

And in context Amos prophesies the day of the Lord, when God judge his enemies and the sinners of his people. Read the entire chapter of Amos 8. usccb.org/nab/bible/amos/amos8.htm

Could I be right? Obviously Jesus is turning to God in his distress and petitioning him for deliverance. Obviously he is expressing his agony and rejection. Obviously he is not falling into completed despair but is trusting in God. Obviously he is confident that God will turn his misery into victory. But is Jesus also quoting Ps 22 as his last opportunity to warn them of their impending judgment?

 

[Salvatore123]

ryan,

I believe Christ was doing quite a few things while on the cross: redeeming, teaching (even while on the cross), preparing his loved ones for his death (giving his mother over to the care of St. John), pointing out how even the righteous do not fare well with men, conquering Satan, etc.

But I do NOT think that Christ was judging anyone. As we all know, Christ even showed humility and charity by asking God to forgive those who crucified and mocked him because, as he said, they did not know what they were doing.