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lemondiesel
Guest
What is the teaching behinds Jesus’ words, “My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?”
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ESMDHokie77
Guest
It’s a quote from an OT scripture… Psalms perhaps?
It’s the beginning of a “monologue”, let’s call it that, … that starts off in despair, but ends in glory.
Peace,
Phil
It’s the beginning of a “monologue”, let’s call it that, … that starts off in despair, but ends in glory.
Peace,
Phil
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Spencerian
Guest
Hi.
It’s a common question on CAF.
On the Cross, in death, Christ found strength to invoke one final part of prophesy in Psalms 22.
Those who were there at Calvary would know exactly what He referred to. Christ was referring to the Hebrew Scriptures which foretold Christ’s coming and Passion.
Rather than explaining more than I am qualified to do, see this American Catholic web article that goes into perfect detail on this passage and the good news that comes from it. Christ wasn’t “losing his faith” or anything like that here–He was actually emphasizing how God *never *leaves our side, ever–unless we choose to leave Him.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Pslams 21.
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Garyjohn2
Guest
I just read it. It’s very beautiful.
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Barbkw
Guest
Jesus’ words point back to the prophecy of His death.
Wording from Psalm 22 is used during the Stations of the Cross.
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Mad_Amos
Guest
Psalm 22.
“‘He relied on The Lord, let Him deliver him…’”
“They have pierced my hands and my feet…”
“They divide my garments among them and for my vesture they cast lots.”
It was an implicit excoriation of the members of the Sanhedrin who would have been present at Calvary.
Any well-studied Jewish scholar would have been acutely familiar with this particular Scripture and the event it foretold; therefore a quick mental comparison of the sight beheld and that which was detailed in the Psalm would likely have given such an observer pause concerning the identity of The Man on the cross before him.
“‘He relied on The Lord, let Him deliver him…’”
“They have pierced my hands and my feet…”
“They divide my garments among them and for my vesture they cast lots.”
It was an implicit excoriation of the members of the Sanhedrin who would have been present at Calvary.
Any well-studied Jewish scholar would have been acutely familiar with this particular Scripture and the event it foretold; therefore a quick mental comparison of the sight beheld and that which was detailed in the Psalm would likely have given such an observer pause concerning the identity of The Man on the cross before him.
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Big_Ro
Guest
The article was a beautiful exposition of the meaning of Christ’s cry. I was genuinely moved. Thank you.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
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BerhaneSelassie
Guest
“…the first verse of which the Lord Himself uttered on the Cross: “My God, My God, look upon Me; why have You forsaken Me?” For “transferring us in a figure” [1 Corinthians 4:6] to what He was saying, and to His own Body (for we are also “His Body,” and He is our “Head”), He uttered from the Cross not His own cry, but ours. For God never “forsook” Him: nor did He Himself ever depart from the Father; but it was in behalf of us that He spoke this: “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?” For there follows, “Far from My health are the words of My offenses:” and it shows in whose person He said this; for sin could not be found in Him.…”–St Augustine of Hippo Exposition on Psalm 44
** Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.** But in the redeeming love that **always **united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all”, so that we might be “reconciled to God by the death of his Son”.–Catechism of the Catholic Church, 603
It is important to know Christ was not stating He was separated from the Father, for were He he would either a) Not be, or no longer be God, thus the Trinity would have been broken up or b) the Hypostatic Union would be undone, thus the Word was no longer Flesh. Either way, this claim of separation is a danger idea, however many Protestants subscribe to this belief, ignoring all the logical implications that result from the statement.
BTW, Christ also quoted the Psalms when He said “Into thy hands I commend my Spirit”
** Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.** But in the redeeming love that **always **united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all”, so that we might be “reconciled to God by the death of his Son”.–Catechism of the Catholic Church, 603
It is important to know Christ was not stating He was separated from the Father, for were He he would either a) Not be, or no longer be God, thus the Trinity would have been broken up or b) the Hypostatic Union would be undone, thus the Word was no longer Flesh. Either way, this claim of separation is a danger idea, however many Protestants subscribe to this belief, ignoring all the logical implications that result from the statement.
BTW, Christ also quoted the Psalms when He said “Into thy hands I commend my Spirit”
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Salvatore123
Guest
In Hebrew/Aramaic (in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, Christ appears to “mix” the two languages when speaking the few words that he does from the cross), the meaning of “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” is actually:
“My God, my God, why have you left me to the fury of my enemies?”
As others above noted, although this sounds like despair, it is not. One must read the entire Psalm to understand why Christ began to quote this particular Psalm.
First, (again, as mentioned above), it “quickened” the minds of the Sanhedrin so that they would have immediately paused and thought hard about what they had done to Christ in calling for his death.
Second, although this was a prayer coming from the human soul of Christ, the words were actually expressing confidence in God.
Keep in mind the “good thief/bad thief”. The “bad thief” said what we mortals would likely have said and had in mind: “Good grief - if you are God, help yourself and us - get us down!” But Christ never waivers from his confidence of God.
I think the most instructive thing about Christ dying on the cross is that Christ DID have the power to remove himself from that suffering at any time. But even at the height of his incredible pain, he chose to remain and still give praise to God AND promise Dismas that Dismas would enter Purgatory upon his death. So even near the end, Christ was thinking of others (such as Dismas and the Blessed Mother) just minutes before he died.
“My God, my God, why have you left me to the fury of my enemies?”
As others above noted, although this sounds like despair, it is not. One must read the entire Psalm to understand why Christ began to quote this particular Psalm.
First, (again, as mentioned above), it “quickened” the minds of the Sanhedrin so that they would have immediately paused and thought hard about what they had done to Christ in calling for his death.
Second, although this was a prayer coming from the human soul of Christ, the words were actually expressing confidence in God.
Keep in mind the “good thief/bad thief”. The “bad thief” said what we mortals would likely have said and had in mind: “Good grief - if you are God, help yourself and us - get us down!” But Christ never waivers from his confidence of God.
I think the most instructive thing about Christ dying on the cross is that Christ DID have the power to remove himself from that suffering at any time. But even at the height of his incredible pain, he chose to remain and still give praise to God AND promise Dismas that Dismas would enter Purgatory upon his death. So even near the end, Christ was thinking of others (such as Dismas and the Blessed Mother) just minutes before he died.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Prodigal son.
Can’t have reunion without separation.
Can’t have reunion without separation.
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Salvatore123
Guest
Alan,
I assume you said what you did, tongue-in-cheek . . .
I would never compare to or call Jesus a “prodigal son”.
Remember - God said that he was “well pleased” with Christ.
I assume you said what you did, tongue-in-cheek . . .
I would never compare to or call Jesus a “prodigal son”.
Remember - God said that he was “well pleased” with Christ.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
I beg your pardon. I’m sorry if it came across judgmental. I meant to say nothing of the kind that your words might be able to be interpreted as. I’ve learned to “read between the lines” and I see that our difference are not all they appear to be.
The prosecution rests, your honor. I am truly sorry for what has happened, but I’m glad the defender could get every one of us a “not guilty” verdict.
Peace,
Alan
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rdscheirer
Guest
Read all of Psalm 22- it seals Jesus union with the Father.
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Big_Ro
Guest
I think you’re out of line here. I don’t really see that the father in the parable of the prodigal son finds fault with the son. He rejoices in his return. It seems that you are finding fault and being judgmental which is altogether a human reaction and projecting your humanness on to the father in the parable. The father symbolizes God and God does not judge as humans judge nor see as humans see. (See story of the annointing of David). Interestingly enough, you remind me of the good son in the parable. He finds plenty of fault with the brother and complains. His piety is commendable but he is wrong to use it as cause to judge his brother and find fault. We should strive to be more like the father and less like the brother.
God bless you brother.
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HisLamb
Guest
Something for you to consider is the possibility that Jesus is not “quoting the psalm” so much as the psalm prophetically quotes Jesus. Either way, to the hearers of Jesus’ words on the cross the entire psalm would come to mind… Not just the few words Jesus uttered.
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Salvatore123
Guest
“I think you’re out of line here. I don’t really see that the father in the parable of the prodigal son finds fault with the son. He rejoices in his return. It seems that you are finding fault and being judgmental which is altogether a human reaction and projecting your humanness on to the father in the parable.”
Well . . . I have been called many things, but never likened to being the brother of the prodigal son.
How in the world did anyone come to THAT conclusion?
I am not judging, nor did I judge, anyone.
I simply said that I don’t see how Jesus could, in any way, be likened to the “prodigal son”.
The prodigal son took his inheritance, spent it on “wine, women, and song” (so to speak), and then, hat in hand, came back asking for forgiveness from his father, which was gladly given.
I have ALWAYS “taken up” for the father in the parable as that is the way I would react to one of my children who was wayward and found his way back, albeit humbly and in need.
I just don’t see where Jesus acted in ANY way, shape, or form, so that he could be compared to the prodigal son.
I made my comment because Jesus was NEVER separated from his Father. In fact, he did his Father’s will, and his Father said he was “well pleased” with how his Son had acquitted himself on Earth.
If what I said is, so called, “out of line” - so be it. I don’t see how in the world me saying that it borders on bad taste at best, to suggest that Jesus was a “prodigal son”, is acting like the son in the parable rather than the father.
If anyone is judging (good grief - we are talking about a parable - NOT real people), I think it is YOU who have done so with regard to me.
And I think it might be YOU who needs to read the parable a bit more. The father WAS “judgmental” of the prodigal son. He DID acknowledge that his prodigal son had squandered his inheritance and lived a poor life. But at the same time, he forgave the son for doing what he did and was ecstatic to discover that the prodigal son was not too proud to come back, admit he was wrong, and want to reconcile with his kin.
If I sound like I don’t have a sense of humor, then that is true too - but only when it comes to speaking about Jesus and God. I try to avoid using Jesus and God in a flippant manner.
That was my only point.
P.S. - I really get a kick out of this “judgmental ****” that people throw out there everytime someone calls an act bad or evil, if it is, in fact, bad or evil. That is not being judgmental. That is being charitable and acting like a good parent. Where did I ever say, or even suggest, someone was going to hell? THAT is being judgmental. If you are suggesting we simply forgive every transgression that our children do and just accept them back into the fold without any consequences, then I really would hate to see how those children turn out. As I recall, one of the commandments is “honor your father and mother”. The prodigal son, and many of our children (including myself) did not or do not this from time to time. Do you REALLY suggest that we just forgive and forget everything our children do, pat them on the head, and say, “just try to be a good boy, Billy”? I don’t know about your neck of the woods, but where I live, my experience is that children who are never corrected or who are not made to feel the consequences of their actions, end up wearing stripes and get visits from their families once a week behind a glass with a telephone . . .
Well . . . I have been called many things, but never likened to being the brother of the prodigal son.
How in the world did anyone come to THAT conclusion?
I am not judging, nor did I judge, anyone.
I simply said that I don’t see how Jesus could, in any way, be likened to the “prodigal son”.
The prodigal son took his inheritance, spent it on “wine, women, and song” (so to speak), and then, hat in hand, came back asking for forgiveness from his father, which was gladly given.
I have ALWAYS “taken up” for the father in the parable as that is the way I would react to one of my children who was wayward and found his way back, albeit humbly and in need.
I just don’t see where Jesus acted in ANY way, shape, or form, so that he could be compared to the prodigal son.
I made my comment because Jesus was NEVER separated from his Father. In fact, he did his Father’s will, and his Father said he was “well pleased” with how his Son had acquitted himself on Earth.
If what I said is, so called, “out of line” - so be it. I don’t see how in the world me saying that it borders on bad taste at best, to suggest that Jesus was a “prodigal son”, is acting like the son in the parable rather than the father.
If anyone is judging (good grief - we are talking about a parable - NOT real people), I think it is YOU who have done so with regard to me.
And I think it might be YOU who needs to read the parable a bit more. The father WAS “judgmental” of the prodigal son. He DID acknowledge that his prodigal son had squandered his inheritance and lived a poor life. But at the same time, he forgave the son for doing what he did and was ecstatic to discover that the prodigal son was not too proud to come back, admit he was wrong, and want to reconcile with his kin.
If I sound like I don’t have a sense of humor, then that is true too - but only when it comes to speaking about Jesus and God. I try to avoid using Jesus and God in a flippant manner.
That was my only point.
P.S. - I really get a kick out of this “judgmental ****” that people throw out there everytime someone calls an act bad or evil, if it is, in fact, bad or evil. That is not being judgmental. That is being charitable and acting like a good parent. Where did I ever say, or even suggest, someone was going to hell? THAT is being judgmental. If you are suggesting we simply forgive every transgression that our children do and just accept them back into the fold without any consequences, then I really would hate to see how those children turn out. As I recall, one of the commandments is “honor your father and mother”. The prodigal son, and many of our children (including myself) did not or do not this from time to time. Do you REALLY suggest that we just forgive and forget everything our children do, pat them on the head, and say, “just try to be a good boy, Billy”? I don’t know about your neck of the woods, but where I live, my experience is that children who are never corrected or who are not made to feel the consequences of their actions, end up wearing stripes and get visits from their families once a week behind a glass with a telephone . . .
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Big Ro, maybe it will help to know how a so-called “psychotic” like me reads your subliminal clues. Once the subliminal ones set in, the stage is set for assumptions that you didn’t make but somehow “communicated.”
I’m sorry but I have a huge headache from writing this, because if my wife knew I revealed her secrets on how to “really” hear somebody’s words, she’d kill me.
So, I’ll keep it short and maybe check on the rest of your post later.
Alan
That doesn’t bother me. The biggest line forms behind the wide path, not the narrow one.
you don’t see this as I see it.
Parents love children, whether they squander money or judge their younger brother, or not.
Yes, my human (not robotic) reaction comes across to my alleged “beautiful mind” as being judmental or nonhuman, or both.
I’m sorry but I have a huge headache from writing this, because if my wife knew I revealed her secrets on how to “really” hear somebody’s words, she’d kill me.
So, I’ll keep it short and maybe check on the rest of your post later.
thank you… God bless you too. We are all human and despite our differences, we are made to love each other and can’t help it – even if we have a hard time showing it because the embarrasment causes triggers in the words that catalyze empathy.
Alan
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