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FaithJoy
Guest
Interesting. If one believes in the new testament,one must conclude that the Jewish people in Jesus’ day thought that Isaiah meant almah to mean virgin.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
you are very considerate. i guess you are right that there are some people who would try to argue although i think most people would be respectful of your contribution.
thank you for including your link. believe me, there are plenty of protestants who argue against Catholic theology. i would love an honest in depth disucssion of this particular topic if it could be done in a mature manner without sarcasm and some posters trying to intimidate others.
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RedDuke50
Guest
I can see what you mean. I personally don’t like to go to websites about religion because I don’t know if they are true or not. For me, it is hard to do things over the internet sometimes. I am really sorry if I sounded mean in my previous post.:imsorry: I came and asked here because I would assume that the people that replied would know what they were talking about and I wouldn’t have to guess if it was true or not. And to get my number of posts higher.
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chosen_people
Guest
The motivation behind this question is another reason for my reticence whenever this subject comes up on the forum. I always wonder if the person merely seeks to add to their general knowledge and understanding or whether there is an underlying motive. Suffice it to say that there is no need for me, as a Jew, to try and convince Christians that their beliefs are wrong or that they would be better off adopting mine. On the contrary. Judaism is truly universal in that it holds that it is easier for the Gentile than for the Jew to get into the world to come as the Gentile has only to follow the seven Noahide commandments.I can see what you mean. I personally don’t like to go to websites about religion because I don’t know if they are true or not. For me, it is hard to do things over the internet sometimes. I am really sorry if I sounded mean in my previous post.:imsorry: I came and asked here because I would assume that the people that replied would know what they were talking about and I wouldn’t have to guess if it was true or not. And to get my number of posts higher.
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Kaninchen
Guest
I’m sorry that it might seem that you ended up walking into a kind of minefield.I can see what you mean. I personally don’t like to go to websites about religion because I don’t know if they are true or not. For me, it is hard to do things over the internet sometimes. I am really sorry if I sounded mean in my previous post.:imsorry: I came and asked here because I would assume that the people that replied would know what they were talking about and I wouldn’t have to guess if it was true or not. And to get my number of posts higher.
Part of the problem is that there are few of ‘us’ and many of ‘you’ on CAF and there is history between posters who have been around a long time. There is also what might be described as ‘CAF ritual’ (what might be called cascading and quite predictable arguments) that follows on from a poster asking a fairly simple question.
chosen people is, of course, quite right about the sensitivity of the issues. After four and a half years and a post-count of over 6000, I think I’ve learned about just how far one can go in saying “don’t believe a word of it” about beliefs that are central to Catholicism and very dear to Catholic posters before one is ‘insulting Catholicism’. Meanwhile, from the perspective of Catholic posters, there’s the dilemma of crossing the line from making a case to proselytizing (which is also against the rules) and both sides are constrained by the general rules about charity and not making personal attacks on other members.
So, when people ask questions like yours, a list of easy to follow sites seems like a good idea. I’m glad you found what you wanted.
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Vouthon
Guest
This is one of the things I have always adored about Judaism. Its the only Faith in the world that is truly NON-PROSELYTIZING!
Throughout history there have been uncountable attempts at converting Jews, both by Muslims and by Christians and others, and yet I can’t think of one historical episode where Jews have forcibly tried to convert others (with the exception, perhaps, of the forced conversion of the Edomites during the Maccabean period - which was opposed by the Pharisees of the time who of course become modern Rabbinic Judaism!)
So Rabbinic Judaism (ie including Pharisees and forbears) have not to my mind ever forcibly converted others.
The Noachide Laws bear a striking similarity to the Decree of the Jerusalem Council in the Book of Acts, do they not?
Judaism also has a beautiful tradition of honouring righteous people from other nations/religions - “Righteous Gentiles” so to speak, as has been seen in modern times in the memorials of Yad Vashem in Israel.
In the Hebrew Bible, it can be seen in the homage owed by Isaiah and other sacred authors to the great Persian King Cyrus. He is even given the title of “annointed one” (Messiah!) although obviously not in the same religious sense as the Messiah you are still expecting! But nonetheless it is such a charming, and kind gesture on the part of Jews.
Judaism can certainly teach the rest of us how to be accepting of others beliefs and just follow your own religious path without trying to change or taint those of others’!
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ibneahmad
Guest
The Jews of the time of Jesus said that they have killed Jesus on the Cross; so he cannot be their truthful Messiah. They are still waiting for their Messiah while nobody else would come as the one who was to come had already come in the form of Jesus.
meltzerboy
New member
Thank you for your kind words about Judaism. But is it the ONLY religion that is non-proselytizing? Aren’t many Eastern religions, such as Hinduism and Buddhism, also non-proselytizing, as well as Native American religions? I thought Christianity was one of the few religions that practiced evangelism, based on Gospel teaching.This is one of the things I have always adored about Judaism. Its the only Faith in the world that is truly NON-PROSELYTIZING!
Throughout history there have been uncountable attempts at converting Jews, both by Muslims and by Christians and others, and yet I can’t think of one historical episode where Jews have forcibly tried to convert others (with the exception, perhaps, of the forced conversion of the Edomites during the Maccabean period - which was opposed by the Pharisees of the time who of course become modern Rabbinic Judaism!)
So Rabbinic Judaism (ie including Pharisees and forbears) have not to my mind ever forcibly converted others.
The Noachide Laws bear a striking similarity to the Decree of the Jerusalem Council in the Book of Acts, do they not?
Judaism also has a beautiful tradition of honouring righteous people from other nations/religions - “Righteous Gentiles” so to speak, as has been seen in modern times in the memorials of Yad Vashem in Israel.
In the Hebrew Bible, it can be seen in the homage owed by Isaiah and other sacred authors to the great Persian King Cyrus. He is even given the title of “annointed one” (Messiah!) although obviously not in the same religious sense as the Messiah you are still expecting! But nonetheless it is such a charming, and kind gesture on the part of Jews.
Judaism can certainly teach the rest of us how to be accepting of others beliefs and just follow your own religious path without trying to change or taint those of others’!
meltzerboy
New member
If what you mean is that, according to Jewish belief, the Messiah was not supposed to have died before accomplishing a set of goals and was not meant to come a second time, then I agree. My understanding is that Muslims believe Jesus was the Messiah but not divine. The non-divinity part is in accord with Jewish teaching.
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Vouthon
Guest
Buddhists still generally speaking would like people to “accept” Buddha because he is the Buddha of this Age until the Coming of the Maitreya
As for Hindus, they believe that everybody is naturally a “Hindu” - its such a diverse movement - however I have still encountered Hindus who have tried to prove to me that Jesus was a wise Guru but not Son of God, so to me this definetly counts as an attempt at least at conversion!
No, I’m quite convinced that Judaism is the ONLY World Religion I have encountered that has been quite happy for me to carry on with my faith and without any attempts to try and convince me otherwise.
Now that’s a real VIRTUE!
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Vouthon
Guest
Oh there’s also the Zoroastrian Faith (the religion of Cyrus the Great ironically!) but they are pretty small now. However they don’t proselytize in any way!
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7_Sorrows
Guest
no need to apologize RedDuke50. i see you are fairly new here. it takes awhile to learn your way around on CAF and understand how things work. just keep visiting different areas of the forum and different topics and your number of posts will definitely go higher in no time at all!! i have learned a lot here.I can see what you mean. I personally don’t like to go to websites about religion because I don’t know if they are true or not. For me, it is hard to do things over the internet sometimes. I am really sorry if I sounded mean in my previous post.:imsorry: I came and asked here because I would assume that the people that replied would know what they were talking about and I wouldn’t have to guess if it was true or not. And to get my number of posts higher.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
when i took a discovering Judaism class several years ago i became very good friends with my Hebrew teacher. she was very intelligent and enjoyed sharing so much of her faith with me and teaching me about so many things. i think she was really hoping i would convert at the end of the 10 month class. i had always wanted to learn more about Judaism and always felt “jewish”. she used to tell me that people that felt that way were standing at the bottom of the mountain when Moses brought down the 10 commandments-
or something like that. she would encourage me to go to different get togethers around the city where i lived. so in a way she was proselytizing, but at the same time she said she couldn’t understand why someone would want to be Jewish. it is hard to make the commitment to follow any faith i believe whether it is judaism or catholicism or buddhism.
i don’t know that Judaism is any harder than any other religion. as much as i liked being at the synagogues and being around the Jewish people, i knew that i was missing generations of not having any cultural Jewish heritage. i know she was really disappointed that i didn’t convert and, in fact, she doesn’t hardly speak to me anymore.
i still call her my friend and the fact that she is Jewish and i am not does not change my feelings for her. she was several years older than i and i always enjoyed my time spent with her and everything i learned.
so i guess you could say there is in a small way some proselytizing in Judaim, but definitely not to the degree that is in Christianity.
my deepest wish is that there could be more understanding between those of the Christian faith and those of the Jewish faith. i wish that we could get to know each other better and to better understand each other’s religion.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
another good website to visit is www.aish.com
you can sign up for spirituality newsletters which i find are worth reading and helpful.
you can sign up for spirituality newsletters which i find are worth reading and helpful.
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Vouthon
Guest
Amen! So do I Sorrows
To do that, I think that Christians and Jews should both focus on the Early Church in the first century, when Christianity was yet to “emerge” as an independent faith but was still a movement within Judaism!
Christians should seek to embrace more and more the Jewish roots of our faith and fight against every fiber of anti-semitism. On the Jewish side, perhaps they should try and view Jesus “objectively”. As in,
*“Ok he wasn’t the Messiah and Christians down the centuries have not exactly been as kind to Jews as they should have been but hey, he was a faithful Torah-abiding Jewish Rabbi who died a martyr for his faith under the Romans and so whenever Jews were persecuted by Christians Jesus, as a faithful Jew, was also being hurt and certainly would not have condoned this!” *
There is a Rabbi - slightly “liberal” - who I respect deeply called “Rami Shapiro”. He has some lovely things to say about Jesus and he has a particular love for the Gospel of Thomas, which he sees not as a Gnostic text but rather as being a Jewish Wisdom text in the tradition of Ecclesiastes and Ben Sira. He wrote an excllent book on “Ecclesiastes”, a kind of commentary which had a huge impact on me.
I’ll need to check up on him again!
I also agree that we should stop talking about Messianic Jews. Lets make this thread truly an attempt to listen too and respect our Jewish friends and their views. After all, according to Pope John Paul II - they are our BIG BROs (elder brothers)
That way perhaps we can move on and truly come to hold each other in high esteem as brothers and sisters in one common enterprise.
I think that we Christians should also stress the “irrevocable” nature of God’s covenant with the Jewish people. To this end I try never to refer to the Tanakh as, “The Old Testament”. Of course what we call the “Old Testament” is 100% the Word of God and I read it every day to help me live my life, however I sometimes think that it can be “offensive” when speaking with Jews in that it gives the wrongful impression that the “Tankh” is somehow “old hat”, which is not at all what we mean when we refer to the Hebrew Bible as the “Old Testament”.
God’s covenant with Israel is irrevocable and permanent.
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Vouthon
Guest
Personally I think that Jews should take pride in the fact that the most successful, widespread religion amongnst non-Jews EVER in history, started as an offshoot of Judaism.
Wherever Christianity spread, despite much of the anti-semitism that cropped up later due to corrupting influences on the Church, it also took with it the Tanakh and opened up to millions of Greeks, Romans and Non-Jews from the first century to the 21st, the divinely-inspired teachings of Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, the Book of Proverbs and all the other Sacred Books. Really, could any other religion - other than the ONLY one to fully accept the Tanakh as divine revelation - have been so successful? I think not.
The Foundations of Western Civilisation are: Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome and the Judaeo-Christian tradition.
Yes “Judaeo-Christian” - it was a joint effort!
Wherever Christianity spread, despite much of the anti-semitism that cropped up later due to corrupting influences on the Church, it also took with it the Tanakh and opened up to millions of Greeks, Romans and Non-Jews from the first century to the 21st, the divinely-inspired teachings of Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, the Book of Proverbs and all the other Sacred Books. Really, could any other religion - other than the ONLY one to fully accept the Tanakh as divine revelation - have been so successful? I think not.
The Foundations of Western Civilisation are: Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome and the Judaeo-Christian tradition.
Yes “Judaeo-Christian” - it was a joint effort!
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7_Sorrows
Guest
yes, my Hebrew teacher always got after me for calling it the Old Testament. however,Amen! So do I Sorrows
To do that, I think that Christians and Jews should both focus on the Early Church in the first century, when Christianity was yet to “emerge” as an independent faith but was still a movement within Judaism!
Christians should seek to embrace more and more the Jewish roots of our faith and fight against every fiber of anti-semitism. On the Jewish side, perhaps they should try and view Jesus “objectively”. As in,
*“Ok he wasn’t the Messiah and Christians down the centuries have not exactly been as kind to Jews as they should have been but hey, he was a faithful Torah-abiding Jewish Rabbi who died a martyr for his faith under the Romans and so whenever Jews were persecuted by Christians Jesus, as a faithful Jew, was also being hurt and certainly would not have condoned this!” *
There is a Rabbi - slightly “liberal” - who I respect deeply called “Rami Shapiro”. He has some lovely things to say about Jesus and he has a particular love for the Gospel of Thomas, which he sees not as a Gnostic text but rather as being a Jewish Wisdom text in the tradition of Ecclesiastes and Ben Sira. He wrote an excllent book on “Ecclesiastes”, a kind of commentary which had a huge impact on me.
I’ll need to check up on him again!
I also agree that we should stop talking about Messianic Jews. Lets make this thread truly an attempt to listen too and respect our Jewish friends and their views. After all, according to Pope John Paul II - they are our BIG BROs (elder brothers)
That way perhaps we can move on and truly come to hold each other in high esteem as brothers and sisters in one common enterprise.
I think that we Christians should also stress the “irrevocable” nature of God’s covenant with the Jewish people. To this end I try never to refer to the Tanakh as, “The Old Testament”. Of course what we call the “Old Testament” is 100% the Word of God and I read it every day to help me live my life, however I sometimes think that it can be “offensive” when speaking with Jews in that it gives the wrongful impression that the “Tankh” is somehow “old hat”, which is not at all what we mean when we refer to the Hebrew Bible as the “Old Testament”.
God’s covenant with Israel is irrevocable and permanent.
that is how i always knew it. the Tanakh is the correct name. in Judaism, that covenant is very much alive and eternal.
considering how the Jews have been persecuted throughout history, i can understand their reluctance to want to get to know Christians better or to understand Christianity.
we have many things in common.
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