Jewish people, the Holocaust, and Christmas

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EmilyAlexandra

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I have a colleague/friend who is Jewish. However, she is Jewish, as she puts it, only in the sense that Hitler would have thought that she was Jewish. She certainly doesn’t have any Jewish beliefs, doesn’t practise Judaism at all, does not identify as Jewish, except in a historical sense, and seemingly doesn’t even know very much about Judaism (e.g. she didn’t know the terms Ashkenazi and Sephardic). Her family are so assimilated that it almost seems ridiculous to describe them as such. They even changed their surname to a very typical English name.

A couple of times recently, I’ve accidentally mentioned Christmas to this friend of mine. I wasn’t meaning to suggest that she observes Christmas as a religious festival, but I just assumed that she would acknowledge Christmas in the same way that pretty much everybody does unless they actually follow another religion devoutly. I know plenty of British Jews who celebrate Christmas in the sense that they will wish people a happy Christmas, send Christmas cards, spend the day visiting family, exchange gifts, watch the Queen’s speech, and eat a traditional British Christmas dinner. Obviously I would not expect the Haredi Jews who live in Stamford Hill to celebrate Christmas, but I generally assume that non-religious people of Jewish ancestry celebrate Christmas in much the same way as non-religious people of any other ancestry.

However, my friend recently said something very interesting, and I wonder whether anybody else has come across this. Her family pointedly don’t acknowledge the existence of Christmas. For example, they deliberately do not meet each other on Christmas Day, as this is a way for them to demonstrate just how much they don’t acknowledge Christmas. They also refuse to use the terms “Christmas Day” and “Boxing Day”, instead referring to these two days as “the bank holidays”.

So, the interesting thing was that my friend says that the reason why her family do this is because they all came to the UK during or after the Second World War and therefore had direct experience of the Holocaust. Then I realised that the British Jews I know who do celebrate Christmas are descendants of much earlier Jewish immigrants from what was then the Russian Empire. I don’t think I know any other British Jews who are descended from Holocaust survivors. Does anybody else know about this? (I know that we have a few Jewish contributors on here - @Pattylt @Kaninchen @meltzerboy2…)
 
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I have an Orthodox Jewish friend. His family always send me a Christmas card and we send them one. They do not celebrate Christmas because they regard it as a Christian festival but they do not pretend it is not happening either. Similarly I know a Jewish lady and her family goes as far as putting up Christmas decorations. They are definitely observant Jews but I am not sure to which branch of Judaism they belong.

So, I think the best way for you to get your question answered is to ask your Jewish friend why they choose to behave as if Christmas does not exist.
 
TomH1 said:
So, I think the best way for you to get your question answered is to ask your Jewish friend why they choose to behave as if Christmas does not exist.
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Well, she just says, “Because of the Holocaust”, and that her family likes to pointedly not mark Christmas in any way in order to be “more Jewish”, although they do not do anything else that would be obviously Jewish. E.g., they do not learn Hebrew, observe any of the rites of passage such as Bat Mitzvah, or observe any of the laws regarding diet, the Sabbath, etc.
Gothe said:
PBS has a program on how the Jews go to Chinese restaurants on Christmas and how they wrote many of the Christmas songs.
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I’ll have a look for that. We can get quite a lot of PBS programmes on TV here.
 
For us it’s just another day but I was brought up to be happy that other people had festivals as well and we’ve no hesitation in wishing them the best for their particular season and even take the odd glass of wine in the various breaking-up for Christmas events that are such a feature of Uni and working life. I can’t say I know any practicing Jews who celebrate Christmas like Christians without the Jesus bit.

On the other hand, I was born in the late '60s with parents who came of age in the '60s. With the previous generation, things were more fraught but I don’t remember Christmas being a big thing, either way.
 
Interesting. This friend is probably 10 or 15 years younger than you in that case. I do know some practising Jews who obviously don’t celebrate Christmas. I mean the sort of Jews who speak Hebrew, have their sons circumcised on the eighth day, attend synagogue at least weekly, observe the dietary laws, keep the Sabbath, wear kippot, practise immersion in a mikveh, and so on.

My other Jewish friends who are not practising but maintain a vague affiliation with Judaism, e.g. attending synagogue once a year for Yom Kippur or getting married under a chuppah, have enthusiastically embraced Christmas simply because it’s what people in this country do on 25 December and they like the food, including pigs in blankets.

I was thinking of people who are not Jewish in any religious sense at all. For example, we were recently talking about the prophet Micah, and when I quoted a verse that included the name “Yahweh”, my friend asked me who Yahweh was. So, unless you had heard her specific view of Christmas, you would probably just assume that she marked it the same as the tens of millions of people in the UK for whom Christmas is a secular celebration of Father Christmas and Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, turkey and Brussels sprouts, mince pies and brandy butter, Slade and Nat King Cole, and debating whether you have to stand up for the national anthem when it’s only on the telly. I was surprised when she said that she pointedly refuses to acknowledge the existence of Christmas (e.g. will not even say the word “Christmas” and will correct people who use the word in her presence) due to the legacy of the Holocaust and the importance of maintaining Jewish identity.
 
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This may be more of a British thing? I know religious Jews don’t have anything to do with Christmas and secular Jews that do celebrate it in varying degrees. One thing to remember is that Judaism is a religion of practice, not belief. I’d imagine anyone that relatives or any experience with the Nazis would have a stronger gut reaction to Christmas and any other major Christian celebration like Easter.

Jews are a funny bunch. They aren’t just a religion, they aren’t just a culture and they aren’t really a race but are thought of one by some. Maybe what best explains them is they are a worldview? Many have something in common with each other and many don’t but because of they were raised, they have a worldview that a bit different than a Christian one…and don’t ask me to point it out because I’m not sure I could nail it down…but it’s something in how we raise our children and interact with each other. It’s how we look at the world and the people in it. Jews focus on this life, not the next and how we are to live in this world. How we are to treat each other and think of ourselves.

Jews have no concept of original sin. We don’t look at ourselves as damaged. We make mistakes. We are supposed to resolve those ourselves as well as ask for Gods forgiveness…for those that still believe in God.

As Jews have been allowed into secular societies, they often will conform to that society in various degrees. I guess you could say, each Jew has a line they will cross and lines they won’t and it’s as individualistic as tastes in clothes. Not a very satisfying answer but, it’s all I’ve got. I struggle to answer these as well. I’m not typical of most Jews as when I became agnostic, I left the faith behind entirely. I full merged into the secular world. Most Jews that become atheist/agnostic still stay culturally Jewish. The only Jewish thing I still did is Hanukkah when my kids were little…as well as Christmas. Now, we celebrate Christmas/Solstice/Festivus…in a very secular way.

I probably did raise my kids in more of a Jewish worldview, though…whatever that defining view is. I certainly agree with Judaism in that we don’t have original sin nor that our mistakes mean we need a savior. I raised them with the responsibility of doing our best to make this world a better place and our mistakes need to be fixed by us. For those that believe in God, He is supposed to help us, for those who don’t, it’s entirely up to us.

Clear as mud?
 
Yeah, there are Jews that are as rude as there are Christians that are rude! Shame on him as that’s not the way the majority of Jews behave or even think! There are Jews that were heavily discriminated against and Christians left such a bad taste that they have forgotten they are supposed to forgive and not judge the whole because of the actions of a few. Life experiences can distort people, damage them to a point that they can’t heal. All others can do is try to forgive them and hope one day the damage will be healed. We all want to put the best face on our people and we all have to deal with those that ruin it for the rest of us.

There are Jews and probably plenty of them that will never forgive Christians for their treatment. These Jews are old and hopefully time and distance will mellow their hatred. While I understand it on an intellectual level, I don’t tolerate it very well. Way to keep up the old stereotypes, dude! This is also something you’ll find in the more isolated groups. Those that interact with Christians all the time, quickly realize people are people and it’s unfair to categorize them like this!
 
I have a Jewish friend who is a descendant of Holocaust survivors. She wishes me Merry Christmas, I wish her a Happy Hanukkah.
Her family runs a spectrum from non-believers who foucus on the secular to maintainers of cultural practices, but all take their Jewish identity seriously even if they don’t go to temple.
 
My wife’s father was a non-observant Jew (mother an observant Catholic). They did Christmas, though he liked to joke about the Hannukah Bush (Christmas Tree). He would even put on a Santa cap and pass out the presents. And some of my wife’s Jewish cousins (also non-observant) would come for Christmas.
 
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That guy is just a bitter and rude person, not representative of most Jews, I hope. I do know some Orthodox Jews, however, who not only refuse to wish others a Merry Christmas, but will not even say the word Christmas, preferring instead, if push comes to shove, December 25th or, at best, X-mas. But I think that sort is in the minority due to the fact that, if for no other reason, it takes less energy and is less draining to be kind than miserable, apart from its being the right thing to do.
 
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You may be right that this is more of a British thing. Although Judaism has a long history in Britain, and Jews have been able to live here more or less free of interference from the authorities for 364 years, Judaism has never become part of British culture in the way that it is part of American culture. For example, I remember a whole episode of Frasier in which the joke is that Frasier has to pretend to be Jewish when he meets his girlfriend’s mother. This humour makes sense to us only because we have seen so many American films and TV shows which make references to Jewish culture.

Because the Jewish community in the UK is very small, I have the impression that British Jews either tend to be very religious, in which case they often live in areas where there are a lot of other very religious Jews, or they tend to be almost completely non-religious. I am not really aware of a lot of British Jews who occupy a middle ground, although I may well be wrong. Also, of course, Britain is not a very religious society anyway, so practising any religion is quite far outside the mainstream. I think that in America it is (or has been until recently) very different, and being a Christian (of any kind) or a Jew is very much a part of American culture. One similarly sees a strong cultural attachment to Catholicism among many Americans (e.g. Irish, Italian, or Polish) which one does not see so much in Britain.

You make, of course, a good point about Jews not being a race. If Jews were a race, how would one account for the Kaifeng Jews or the Beta Israel?
 
EmilyAlexandra said:
You make, of course, a good point about Jews not being a race. If Jews were a race, how would one account for the Kaifeng Jews or the Beta Israel?
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Originally, Jews were Arabs…I don’t know that many people that would consider Arabs as a race these days? I suppose they could. One thing about Jews though is that they’ve been through so many diasporas and mingled and married while there, that any race they had is long gone. Yeah, seeing Chinese or black Jews can throw a wrench in that outlook! 😂😂😂

It’s interesting that British Jews are either really religious or totally secular. American Jews aren’t far behind in that! The only really religious Jews in America are located in a few large cities and stay amongst each other in specific neighborhoods or they are secular and live all over the place. Judaism, for those that are seriously religious almost demands that they live in close community in order to have the synagogue within walking distance for the Sabbath and kosher butchers…and delis! Where would they eat out? 😱. There is greater safety in numbers plus a comfort level in being in close proximity to each other. I ran away from all of that years ago. It has advantages but it has great disadvantages as well. Nothing like everyone knowing everything you’re doing at all times. It helps protect the faith of the children too, I suppose. Didn’t work for me but it does for many.

The secular or cultural Jews are becoming more secular all the time, too. While many continue acting and practicing as Jews, more and more are leaving it all behind as I did…just kind of one generation at a time…step by step.

The big question asked within the communities is will Judaism survive? It shrinks a little more each year. While I’m not sure if I’d like it to disappear, I’m not sure it will survive and still have adherents in another 200 years. Maybe a few enclaves of very religious Jews and everyone else will just have “Jewish ancestry”. Even Israel is mostly secular though the pious ones are pretty loud for their numbers.

I also wonder how much longer the secular Jews in Britain will identify as Jewish and just go with, “I’m a Brit”? If no one has practiced Judaism in your family for four generations, how well will the label of Jew stick? It’s probably already happened in many/some families.
 
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@(name removed by moderator) I am pleased to say that my friend is nothing like the guy you describe. She doesn’t try to denigrate other people’s beliefs, but she wants to make very clear that she has nothing to do with any of it. The way in which she goes about that is to always, as I say, do things like pointedly calling Christmas Day and Boxing Day “the bank holidays”, presumably to make the point that she recognises the authority of common and statute law but not the religious significance of the festival. She also claims to be surprised every year when she is again reminded that most people do celebrate Christmas. You could say that this is in a way more irritating than just calling it nonsense of course…
Pattylt said:
There are Jews that were heavily discriminated against and Christians left such a bad taste
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I think that is pretty much how my friend feels about it. It seems a little odd to me, but I do also try to understand where she is coming from. I think her reasoning is along the lines of, “German Christians were responsible for the Holocaust, so I’m not going to acknowledge Christian festivals”. Of course, one could also say, “Christians from the British Empire, the French Empire, the United States, Poland, Greece, and even Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union (among others) fought to defeat Nazi Germany, and my grandparents began a new life in England, an Anglican country, so I shall celebrate a distinctively Anglican Christmas every year in order to be as un-German as possible” (one could understand if she did not want to celebrate a typical German Lutheran Christmas).
meltzerboy2 said:
But I think that sort is in the minority due to the fact that, if for no other reason, it takes less energy and is less draining to be kind than miserable, apart from its being the right thing to do.
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Yes, I’ve had the same kind of thought about this friend of mine. Rather than go through the hassle every year of telling people that, as far as she is concerned, 25 December isn’t Christmas, wouldn’t it be easier just to acknowledge that if you live in Britain, 25 December is Christmas.
 
There are so many issues here that it is difficult to address them coherently. There are highly religious Jews, somewhat religious Jews, and not-at-all-religious Jews. There are differing sects in Judaism.

Where to begin? First of all, Christianity is a Jewish religion. Founded by a fully Jew-fully-God man. All 12 chosen Apostles purely Jewish. First 3,000 members all Jewish. It has been quite incorrectly called a Gentile religion. Gentiles are in it, but it is a Jewish religion.

Couple of things that I find fascinating to watch: The Scarlet and the Black about Monsignor Hugh O’Flaherty at the Vatican in WWII. He risked his life daily to save allies soldier and many Jews in Nazi-occupied Rome.


And the conversion story of Fr. Peter Sabbath a secular Jew who sought a spiritual home and found that he needed deny nothing to be completely fulfilled.
 
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po18guy said:
And the conversion story of Fr. Peter Sabbath a secular Jew who sought a spiritual home and found that he needed deny nothing to be completely fulfilled.
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Is advertising part of the ‘Spirit of Christmas’?
 
I thought that is clearly identified it as something that appealed to me.
If that is offensive or immoral, I am sorry.
 
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