This is actually a laughably simplistic reading of history–what about usury? What about the Jews’ status? What about pressure from Islam? And finally, what about Poland?Well in the past in Europe yes.
Religious freedom was not yet in the books and the Jews were convenient scape goats for secular rulers that used the Church in a time that separation between church and state was not great to persecute jews.
Remember them kings ruled by divine right and anyone that did not belong to the right religion was suspect of disloyality. Like the Jews even when they were non political.
Read “Constantine’s Sword” by James Carroll.I was told today by a former jewish person that the catholic church has persecuted and killed jews for centuries. And that catholics hate jews. My immediate response was this isn’t true, and asked her to back this up. She hasn’t replied yet. I’ve never heard of such things or such an accusation. Anyone have any ideas as to where this is coming from?
How are you going to make a Jew jealous for their Messiah by talking like that!Also one might want to ask St. Stephen Protomartyr what the Jews did when the shoe was on the other foot–as in, when *they *outnumbered us.
No, that’s not what I was saying.Yes. We deserved everything that was ever done to us because we constantly persecuted Christians.
So the Jews as an ethnic people would of gone around terrorizing all Christians and the world if their numbers were larger than most?No, that’s not what I was saying.
But when Jews outnumbered Christians, they treated us exactly as we treated them later on, when we became more powerful. The only reason Jews didn’t persecute Christians after the first century was, well, it’s hard to persecute people that have you that outnumbered. It doesn’t say anything about Jews; just that people who have power, will abuse those different from them.
Since we had the power, and were therefore able to do the abusing, we obviously have more guilt to live down. But people seem to think the Jews were somehow special in not persecuting anyone, when they couldn’t have done it–and we know they *wanted *to, we’ve got the rabbinical condemnations of the very existence of Christians to prove it. People don’t get credit for not doing things they can’t do. I don’t get credit for not launching any nukes at Saudi Arabia, since I don’t have any nukes to launch.
Where did you get that idea from?No, that’s not what I was saying.
But when Jews outnumbered Christians, they treated us exactly as we treated them later on,
This Constantine’s Sword?Read “Constantine’s Sword” by James Carroll.
Alas, the history is always amateurish and often wrong; the theology is an affront to any form of historic Christianity; and the author comes off as smug, sanctimonious, and unctuous.
No thanks.Start with the history that Carroll tells and with the way he tells it. Carroll is an amateur historian. He has no degrees in the subject and, to judge from this book, no expertise in either Jewish history or church history. Historians normally work with primary sources-documents roughly contemporary with the events to which they pertain-and with the best scholarship dealing with those documents and with the history surrounding them. Carroll has read no cache of documents for himself and, as far as I can tell, has never crossed the threshold of an archive. Occasionally he cites a source, but a look at his endnotes will always reveal that he has cribbed the reference and quotation from someone else. There is no evidence that he reads Latin, Greek, or Hebrew, and yet he comments in an authoritative tone on histories that demand a knowledge of those languages.
It’s, um…fairly uncontroversial. Like, “Julius Caesar was from Rome.” Who exactly were the Apostles hiding from on Pentacost? Who hired Saul of Tarsus as a bounty-hunter to kill Christians? Wasn’t the Romans.Where did you get that idea from?
I mean, “Had the entire population of the Roman Empire become Jewish instead of Christian, it would have persecuted what the Jews saw as the heresy of Christianity.”So the Jews as an ethnic people would of gone around terrorizing all Christians and the world if their numbers were larger than most?
Or are you talking about the ones who were the zealous religious type?
There is no evidence that he reads Latin, Greek, or Hebrew, and yet he comments in an authoritative tone on histories that demand a knowledge of those languages. …This Constantine’s Sword?
No thanks.
I don’t have the background to evaluate whether Constantine’s Sword is fair or accurate.There is no evidence that he reads Latin, Greek, or Hebrew, and yet he comments in an authoritative tone on histories that demand a knowledge of those languages. …
This could also be a review of the early church fathers and many commentators of the bible up to the 1500s
This thread is definitely trouble…why would you listen to such foolishness?I was told today by a former jewish person that the catholic church has persecuted and killed jews for centuries. And that catholics hate jews. My immediate response was this isn’t true, and asked her to back this up. She hasn’t replied yet. I’ve never heard of such things or such an accusation. Anyone have any ideas as to where this is coming from?
Who is Rambam?For every persecution, there was someone to preach against it. Jews, on the other hand, are under no such obligation. And they regarded Christianity as an abomination–or is “may his bones be ground into dust” (what Rambam says after every mention of Jesus) some kind of honorific I’m not aware of?
I enjoyed the book immensely.I don’t have the background to evaluate whether Constantine’s Sword is fair or accurate.
The OP asked where the idea came from that Catholics had persecuted Jews for centuries. I think the book does a good job of explaining where the idea comes from.
Mamonomides. He was a biggie in the 12th century regarding Jewish law/commentary. Doctor, philosopher… wrote “Guide for the Perplexed” and other page turners. THere’s a letter he wrote at a time when communities were being persecuted by muslims. He was discussing the history of those who tried to destroy Judaism either by sword or by controversey. He said Jesus was an example of the latter:Who is Rambam?
Thanks,
RAR