Jewish persecution by catholics

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RAR said:
Who is Rambam?

Thanks,
RAR
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It’s an acronym–Rabbi Moshe bar Maimon.

In Greek it’s Maimonides. He was the rabbi that adapted Aristotelian philosophy to Judaism, and is arguably the greatest thinker in Jewish history.
 
thomasf said:
I was told today by a former jewish person that the catholic church has persecuted and killed jews for centuries. And that catholics hate jews. My immediate response was this isn’t true, and asked her to back this up. She hasn’t replied yet. I’ve never heard of such things or such an accusation. Anyone have any ideas as to where this is coming from?
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Another thing, most Palestinians are Christian and hundreds are killed every day by the Jews…want to talk of killing outside the bible?? Here it is.
 
Valke2 said:
Where did you get that idea from?

At least by the fourth century, the consensus amongst scholars is that persecution by Jews of Christians has been traditionally overstated; according to James Everett Seaver,

Much of Christian hatred toward the Jews was based on the popular misconception… that the Jews had been the active persecutors of Christians for many centuries… The… examination of the sources for fourth century Jewish history will show that the universal, tenacious, and malicious Jewish hatred of Christianity referred to by the church fathers and countless others has no existence in historical fact. The generalizations of patristic writers in support of the accusation have been wrongly interpreted from the fourth century to the present day. That individual Jews hated and reviled the Christians there can be no doubt, but there is no evidence that the Jews as a class hated and persecuted the Christians as a class during the early years of the fourth century. (from wikipedia)
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Who’s talking about the Fourth Century? We practically ran the world by then! I’m talking about, as I said (funny how nobody notices what I say, only what they think I mean), when the Jews outnumbered Christians. They certainly didn’t outnumber them by the middle of the Second Century.

But that first hundred years, it wasn’t the Christians doing the persecuting. It was Jews, less and less (mostly as the Pax Romana hardened, and cracked down on unsanctioned executions) and the Romans, more and more.

And if you think I care, you’re dead wrong. I’d persecute Christians too, if I thought they were leading people away from Torah–just as I’d persecute them if I thought they were leading people to neglect the Household Gods. I’m not an idiot, I understand why people would want to persecute us, and I fully acknowledge that our history here is mainly shameful to us, and not the Jews. Since we acknowledge their legitimacy, and they don’t ours, we’re much more answerable for what we do to them than vice versa.
 
Righteousone said:
Err…what? You don’t think so?
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Israel isn’t one of my message board topics, I have to point out so, any conversation on the subject itself would be very brief and one-sided.

However - most Palestinians are Christian? Christian bling beggars perhaps?
 
Any powerful majority is going to do the most abusing. If Jews were a majority they would. It’s just human nature and the odds, not to do with any religion or ethnicity.
 
Righteousone said:
Another thing, most Palestinians are Christian and hundreds are killed every day by the Jews…want to talk of killing outside the bible?? Here it is.
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That’s not true; most Palestinians are Muslim, and besides, most of them aren’t really Palestinian, if there is such a thing; they’re Egyptian.

Besides which, Israel has a right to occupy its original territory, and the legitimate owners of a territory have the right to expel intruders, provided they can do so with a minimum of injustice (that’s why it probably would have been okay for a medieval European state not to allow Jews to enter, but was almost certainly wrong to expel them when they’d lived there for centuries).

Of course, when the intruders start blowing themselves up in order to kill randomly selected members of your civilian population, naturally tempers flare.
 
Hastrman said:
Who’s talking about the Fourth Century? We practically ran the world by then! I’m talking about, as I said (funny how nobody notices what I say, only what they think I mean), when the Jews outnumbered Christians. They certainly didn’t outnumber them by the middle of the Second Century.

But that first hundred years, it wasn’t the Christians doing the persecuting. It was Jews, less and less (mostly as the Pax Romana hardened, and cracked down on unsanctioned executions) and the Romans, more and more.

And if you think I care, you’re dead wrong. I’d persecute Christians too, if I thought they were leading people away from Torah–just as I’d persecute them if I thought they were leading people to neglect the Household Gods. I’m not an idiot, I understand why people would want to persecute us, and I fully acknowledge that our history here is mainly shameful to us, and not the Jews. Since we acknowledge their legitimacy, and they don’t ours, we’re much more answerable for what we do to them than vice versa.
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The quote could be worded better. It is saying, I believe, that by the 4th century, it was apparent (to those in the 4th century) that Jews had not persecuted Christians as a group and that this was an historical inaccuracy.

Also, I don’t think you can say Christians were running the world by the 4th century. That is about when they really got started.
 
My ancient mid eastern history isn’t much, but I was under the impression that what persicution of Christians by Jews existed, it ended at the fall of Jerusalem.

Besides, as Christians, we are not to accept the eye for an eye mentality. “they did it first” is not acceptable.
 
Much of Christian hatred toward the Jews was based on the popular misconception, amazingly enough still prevalent, that the Jews had been the active persecutors of Christians for many centuries. Juster, Parkes, and 'Williams have ably shown the fallacy of this idea concerning Jewish persecution of Christians during the first three centuries. It remains to discover whether there is any basis for the claim, often voiced in the writings of the church fathers, that the Jews were actively persecuting Christians during the crucial fourth century, thus inviting Christian hatred and retaliation.

vlib.iue.it/carrie/texts/carrie_books/seaver/text.html
 
Valke2 said:
The quote could be worded better. It is saying, I believe, that by the 4th century, it was apparent (to those in the 4th century) that Jews had not persecuted Christians as a group and that this was an historical inaccuracy.

Also, I don’t think you can say Christians were running the world by the 4th century. That is about when they really got started.
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We have to use some common sense here.

Were Jews ever harsh to perceived idolaters before the first century? Sure, that’s how they got into the Promised Land, by slaughtering the heathen.

Is Elijah the slayer of false prophets a hero in Judaism? Definitely.

Are a lot of Jews hostile to Jesus and Christians today and call them idolaters and Jesus a false prophet? Of course.

So even if Jews as a people weren’t actively persecuting, they always maintained a favorable atmosphere for persecution (punishment) of those thought to be idolaters and false prophets, such as the Christians.
 
Valke2 said:
The quote could be worded better. It is saying, I believe, that by the 4th century, it was apparent (to those in the 4th century) that Jews had not persecuted Christians as a group and that this was an historical inaccuracy.
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Actually if you read Acts etc., you get the impression that the persecution of Christians wasn’t systematic or widespread, just very vicious–like most anti-Jewish violence in Europe. They’d kill a deacon here, hire Saul of Tarsus there, but most of the Jews wouldn’t do anything unless, maybe, they happened to be offended by a particular preacher or something.

But on the other hand, nobody in the ancient world would argue from numbers of dead; nobody ever did that till the nineteenth century. The mere fact of being killed–and in undignified ways–was what offended them. I don’t recall the Fathers ever much saying the persecution was big, only that it was evil. It’s a common error to read modern attitudes into the past.

Also, if the whole “none of it was official” argument, which is hardly secure, were to be raised, one might point out that neither was most anti-Jewish violence in Europe, other than the two expulsions and some pogroms, until the Spanish Inquisition.

It is to the eternal credit of the First Crusade, for instance, that some of their rearguard forces were diverted to the Rhine to dispense with the mobs following Peter the Hermit, who had been attacking Bavarian Jews. Mobs don’t do so well against mounted cavalry.
 
I do find it a little disconcerting that the OP had never heard of Catholic persecution of Jews, though. Where on earth have you been living?!
 
khutcheson said:
Read “Constantine’s Sword” by James Carroll.
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And in case people try dismissing Carroll’s book, read “The Last Three Popes and the Jews” by Pinchas Lapide.​

Lapide’s book was published in 1964. It is full of interesting details about the help Pius XII gave the Jews during WW2, & has often been referred to as a source of information for that reason.

The previous half of the book is full of equally interesting detail, about the behaviour of the CC toward the Jews up to, & including, the pontificate of Pius XI. That part of the book is, to say the least, not a happy-making read. If Lapide can be trusted as a source for the activities of Pius XII (the nice news), it is not clear why he should be dismissed when he describes the indescribable behaviour of the CC before Pius XII (the not so nice news).
 
FaithofAbraham said:
We have to use some common sense here.

Were Jews ever harsh to perceived idolaters before the first century? Sure, that’s how they got into the Promised Land, by slaughtering the heathen.

Is Elijah the slayer of false prophets a hero in Judaism? Definitely.

Are a lot of Jews hostile to Jesus and Christians today and call them idolaters and Jesus a false prophet? Of course.

So even if Jews as a people weren’t actively persecuting, they always maintained a favorable atmosphere for persecution (punishment) of those thought to be idolaters and false prophets, such as the Christians.
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see, this is what annoys me. NOw we are moving from “jews persecuted christians” to “even if jews didn’t persecute christians…”
 
Valke2 said:
see, this is what annoys me. NOw we are moving from “jews persecuted christians” to “even if jews didn’t persecute christians…”
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I didn’t say that either, I say we know just by common sense some Jews persecuted Christians, and most Jews still foster the climate for persecution by their claims that Jesus is a false prophet and Christians are idolaters. Where Jews rule areas in Israel, Messianics are definitely discriminated against. So there is no reason to think Jews were a lot softer and kinder two thousand years ago.
 
Where in this day and age are Christians killing Jews? Where in this day and age are Jews killing Christians? This is an argument over ancient history. My ancestors were Huns. They killed everybody. Am I to be held accountable for what my barbarian ancestors did? Forget the past. Live in the here and now.😦
 
pete_29 said:
Where in this day and age are Christians killing Jews? Where in this day and age are Jews killing Christians? This is an argument over ancient history. My ancestors were Huns. They killed everybody. Am I to be held accountable for what my barbarian ancestors did? Forget the past. Live in the here and now.😦
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My Sicilian side demands reperations from both Romans and Moors. Please contact me when you have compiled the money.👍

I agree with the history part. For the record, there are still Christians who attack Jews, both physically and verbally.
 
ralphinal said:
My Sicilian side demands reperations from both Romans and Moors. Please contact me when you have compiled the money.👍

I agree with the history part. For the record, there are still Christians who attack Jews, both physically and verbally.
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I have to check with my wife first.😛
 
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