Jewish responses to Jesus as the Messiah

[chosen_people]

Just curious… Do Jews still know which bloodline they come from? Do Davidic Jews know they come from the Line of David? If not, how will anyone ever know if the Messiah comes from the line of David? Wouldn’t this mean that no converted Jew, who isn’t a Jew by blood, or their descendants could ever be the Messiah? Since the adoption part isn’t viable for Christ (being adopted by Joseph, hence the line of David) I imagine that wouldn’t work for modern day Jews-by-conversion. I dunno, it seems a bit strange to me. I’ve never thought too much about this before.

Also, I just want to point out that time and again, the Popes have taught that we should have profound respect for the Jewish people, for they are the chosen people, that the covenant God made with them is eternal. I believe that the events cited earlier in the thread, how the Jews have encountered persecution that very well should have wiped them out but they survived, are evidence to God’s continued love for them. But of course we are instructed to continue to pray for them, that they’ll open their hearts to the fullness of God’s revelation, primarily through Christ.

The Messiah ben David must be Jewish, from the tribe of Judah,from the seed of King David and from the seed of Solomon. To be Jewish you must be born to a Jewish mother. Your mother could have converted to Judaism before you were born but then you have the problem of the tribe of Judah and being descended through David and Solomon.

How can we possibly know today if someone has the proper genealogies? Certainly Jews have been shown to have common genealogical markings and Cohenim can trace themselves back to a single ancestor some three thousand years ago. However, how can we be sure that someone is descended through David and Solomon?

Now my own opinion is if anyone fulfills the other five criterion of the Messiah ben David I for one will take on face value his claim of proper genealogy

When you mentioned “the Popes” relationship to the Jews I think you are speaking of Popes from John XXIII onward. Many of the actions by many of the Popes before Vatican II and many of the Papal Bulls and edicts were persecutions of the Jews and not respect for the Jews.

I personally am always confused when a Catholic prays for the Jews to stop being Jews. First, such an action is of and by itself a declaration by every Catholic that their son-god messiah did not fulfill the sixth messianic criterion.

More importantly, what exactly are they asking of God who made an eternal covenant with the Jews. Are they asking God to help the Jews break their eternal covenant with God or are they asking God to break His eternal covenant with the Jewish people?

A Jew (but not a gentile) who falls away from the covenant and worships a man has failed God’s test for the Jews in Deuteronomy 13:2-6. His penalty is separation from God in the world to come. This is not something we Jews would pray to have happen to Catholics.

 

[chosen_people]

Chosen people~

Shabbat shalom (well, it’s shabbat locally, it’s probably past havdalah by this point in Israel…)!

A question coming out of genuine curiosity on my part–I’m wondering what attracted you to CAF? Do you find yourself mainly answering questions about Judaism for gentiles?

Also, I’m wondering if you might be frum, b’aal teshuvah, chasidic, etc? From your posts, it sounds as if you are observant.

Since I’m asking about you, I will first share about myself–I was “technically” raised Conservative (American).

Anyway, just curious to know a little bit about you. I find it interesting when non-Catholics participate here so I got to wondering about you!

Best,

Sablouwho

Shabbat of course is over. I participate on the forum to answer questions about Jews and Israel. It is also about the only place I get to practice and improve my writing in english.

 

[FanChan]

The Messiah ben David must be Jewish, from the tribe of Judah,from the seed of King David and from the seed of Solomon. To be Jewish you must be born to a Jewish mother. Your mother could have converted to Judaism before you were born but then you have the problem of the tribe of Judah and being descended through David and Solomon.

How can we possibly know today if someone has the proper genealogies? Certainly Jews have been shown to have common genealogical markings and Cohenim can trace themselves back to a single ancestor some three thousand years ago. However, how can we be sure that someone is descended through David and Solomon?

Now my own opinion is if anyone fulfills the other five criterion of the Messiah ben David I for one will take on face value his claim of proper genealogy

When you mentioned “the Popes” relationship to the Jews I think you are speaking of Popes from John XXIII onward. Many of the actions by many of the Popes before Vatican II and many of the Papal Bulls and edicts were persecutions of the Jews and not respect for the Jews.

I personally am always confused when a Catholic prays for the Jews to stop being Jews. First, such an action is of and by itself a declaration by every Catholic that their son-god messiah did not fulfill the sixth messianic criterion.

More importantly, what exactly are they asking of God who made an eternal covenant with the Jews. Are they asking God to help the Jews break their eternal covenant with God or are they asking God to break His eternal covenant with the Jewish people?

A Jew (but not a gentile) who falls away from the covenant and worships a man has failed God’s test for the Jews in Deuteronomy 13:2-6. His penalty is separation from God in the world to come. This is not something we Jews would pray to have happen to Catholics.

Thank-you very much for the response! It’s very helpful in understanding that bit.

I’ll say this much in regards to the second half of the post. As Catholics, we don’t see a conversion from Judaism to Catholicism as ceasing to be Jewish so much as fulfilling that Jewish faith. Since we as Catholics see Jesus Christ as the Messiah, we see the conversion from Judaism to Catholicism as the natural progression when one believes. We’d never ask you to lie, to convert if you believe you’re worshiping a man or breaking a covenant with God. We always expect that the person who converts knows and believes in what they’re jumping into.

We see Judaism as our heritage, as what we once were, as a very deep, integral part of who we still are. I have a profound respect for the Jewish faith, for its roots, for they’re my roots as well. The whole question of what’s to become of the Jewish faith in light of Christianity was a question of great debate for the first Christians, as recorded in the New Testament.

In regards to the persecution of the past, I can only conclude that what persecution there was stemmed from the bigotry of men, and the work of darker powers intent on driving a wedge between our faiths, to keep us apart, to prevent the unity of God’s people. Surely such persecution is not what Christ had in mind.

 

[DLT]

Thank-you very much for the response! It’s very helpful in understanding that bit.

I’ll say this much in regards to the second half of the post. As Catholics, we don’t see a conversion from Judaism to Catholicism as ceasing to be Jewish so much as fulfilling that Jewish faith. Since we as Catholics see Jesus Christ as the Messiah, we see the conversion from Judaism to Catholicism as the natural progression when one believes. We’d never ask you to lie, to convert if you believe you’re worshiping a man or breaking a covenant with God. We always expect that the person who converts knows and believes in what they’re jumping into.

We see Judaism as our heritage, as what we once were, as a very deep, integral part of who we still are. I have a profound respect for the Jewish faith, for its roots, for they’re my roots as well. The whole question of what’s to become of the Jewish faith in light of Christianity was a question of great debate for the first Christians, as recorded in the New Testament.

In regards to the persecution of the past, I can only conclude that what persecution there was stemmed from the bigotry of men, and the work of darker powers intent on driving a wedge between our faiths, to keep us apart, to prevent the unity of God’s people. Surely such persecution is not what Christ had in mind.

In the beginning of Christianity, many Christians were persecuted by both the Jewish and the pagan Roman people… Many Jewish leaders turned the Christians in to the Roman authorities. Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee, went around approving of the killing of Christians in the name of God before he had his vision of the resurrected Jesus of Nazareth and became St. Paul. That is what lead to his conversion.

 

[DLT]

Also, the Old Testament that the Jewish leaders used at the time of the Lord Jesus was what Catholics call the Septuagint, the Alexandrian version, originally translated from the Hebrew by seventy Jewish scholars. It had the books of Sirach and Wisdom among others. Later the Jewish leaders went back to using the mostly Hebrew Old Testament because too many Jewish people were converting to Christianity because of the Messianic prophecies in the Book of Wisdom, Chapter 2:12-22: “Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, reproaches us for our transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training. He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the Lord. To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us, because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways. He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny fo the just and boasts that God is his Father. Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. For if the just one be the son of God , he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words , God will take care of him.” Later some of the Protestant Christians took this and other books out of their Bible. Why?

 

[lelhajj]

Are you not aware of the conflict between Arabs and Jews in Israel right now?

Of course they say that!..Chosen People was talking about history.

“The world is witness of what Jews do”…What do they do exactly?

Of course i am aware of the conflict. I live very close to this area and listen to the news. That is the reason why i can not agree about what jews are doing here in israel.

 

[sablouwho]

My point was that the Jesus figure of the Christian scriptures is not a perfect being who never sinned or erred. I would never refer to your messiah as “a bad man”

[snipped]

That is not to say that Jesus did not say many wise and true things. Except they didn’t add any moral or theological significance to Judaism, because though the Christian scriptures falsely relates their source to Jesus, they are lifted right out of the the Tanach and Talmud.

Re: the first paragraph, I appreciate, Chosen People, that you are not calling him a bad man. However this issue does remind me of C.S. Lewis’ “liar, lunatic or Lord” argument.

Re: the second paragraph, I have seen Jewish arguments like yours that state that “Jesus didn’t add anything new”, and yet other Jewish arguments that say “Jesus added things that were new or changed some things.” Jewish counter-missionaries that I have encountered (e.g. the “Jews for Judaism” website/organization comes mind) seem to want it both ways.

 

[sablouwho]

As Catholics, we don’t see a conversion from Judaism to Catholicism as ceasing to be Jewish so much as fulfilling that Jewish faith. Since we as Catholics see Jesus Christ as the Messiah, we see the conversion from Judaism to Catholicism as the natural progression when one believes.

Indeed.

I will add, as a Jew myself who believes in Jesus, that I do not view myself as having ceased to be Jewish. Though while I remain remain a Jew, I do not practice rabbinical Judaism.

The idea that a Jew who believes in the Jewish Messiah somehow ceases to be Jewish is, well, puzzling to say the least! Though I realize that observant Jews think otherwise since they do not assent to Jesus’ messiah-ship, and would call me an apostate and say that I don’t have a place in the world-to-come.

While I obviously believe such Jews are misguided, it is fine with me that they believe that–given the religious beliefs of today’s observant Judaism, and being Jewish myself, I can certainly understand why they believe as they do.

Given the above, Christians (Catholics and non-Catholics) who pray for the “conversion” of the Jews are not, IMO, praying that they would cease to be Jewish.* Rather, they are praying that Jews will accept Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, as such, and recognize his true identity. While doing so on the part of the Jews would no doubt bring about some changes, it would not make them cease to be Jewish.

• Granted, this is a general statement and there are sure to be some ignorant and/or anti-semitic “Christians” who aren’t too enlightened…

We see Judaism as our heritage, as what we once were, as a very deep, integral part of who we still are. I have a profound respect for the Jewish faith, for its roots, for they’re my roots as well.

It’s funny, before I converted to faith that Jesus is indeed the Jewish messiah (and the messiah of all people), I found it so odd when Christian would say things like this. I remember I was once talking with a Catholic priest who explained about being spiritual descendant of Abraham. However, now, have a completely different view–what used to strike me as an odd belief now makes sense.

 

[sablouwho]

I want to say something that I feel is important, Chosen People. I am trying here to share with you what I have learned about how Christians think. I am not trying to convert you–that’s not my interest, and in any case, I know I would fail.

What I am trying to do is present an alternative viewpoint as one who used to hold similar views to the ones you have stated herein, but who now sees things very differently. I know that there is a risk of offending you when I do this, and I want you to know that it is not my intention to offend you, and I am trying hard not to do so. If I haven’t offended you, great. But if I have, please accept my apologies.

The Messiah ben David must be Jewish, from the tribe of Judah,from the seed of King David and from the seed of Solomon…

**Now my own opinion is if anyone fulfills the other five criterion of the Messiah ben David I for one will take on face value his claim of proper genealogy **

I think you say something pretty important here. Personally, I get what you are saying and I would tend to agree with this way of thinking.

However, Observant Jews apply quite a bit of legalism to Christian belief regarding Jesus’ messiahship. Thus to remain consistent, I think the same degree of legalism must be applied to anyone else claiming to be the Jewish messiah.

When you mentioned “the Popes” relationship to the Jews I think you are speaking of Popes from John XXIII onward. Many of the actions by many of the Popes before Vatican II and many of the Papal Bulls and edicts were persecutions of the Jews and not respect for the Jews.

Agreed. There is some truly awful stuff in history done by Christians against Jews. It was an issue for me when I was considering “the Christian thing”. Eventually, I realized that my faith was/is in Jesus, and not in people. Of course, my road-to-Damascus-like conversion experience made things pretty clear. So I believe that which God showed me to be true, despite the often awful things that some Christians have done.

I personally am always confused when a Catholic prays for the Jews to stop being Jews.

A few thoughts here…

As I noted in a post up-thread (replying to FanChan), Catholics (and/or other Christians) are not praying for Jews to “stop being Jews”. They are praying for Jews to accept the Jewish messiah. This may seem like it is splitting hairs, but it is a substantial, albeit subtle, difference.

I also feel the statement above approaches a strawman argument. If you look at the actual liturgy in the Catholic tradition, you will see that the prayers do not ask God for Jews to stop being Jews.

That said, before I had faith in Jesus, I saw this issue exactly the way you do now, so I can very much understand how you look at this. I too thought that Christians praying for Jews to accept Jesus meant they wanted Jews to stop being Jewish.

First, such an action is of and by itself a declaration by every Catholic that their son-god messiah did not fulfill the sixth messianic criterion.

I don’t recall the order of the criterion of the Jewish messianic expectations, would you mind restating specifically which one you refer to here?

More importantly, what exactly are they asking of God who made an eternal covenant with the Jews. Are they asking God to help the Jews break their eternal covenant with God or are they asking God to break His eternal covenant with the Jewish people?

Neither, actually. But again, I really do understand why observant Jews (I am assuming that you are one–I ask your pardon if I am incorrect in that assumption) would believe as you have stated above.

A Jew (but not a gentile) who falls away from the covenant and worships a man has failed God’s test for the Jews in Deuteronomy 13:2-6. His penalty is separation from God in the world to come. This is not something we Jews would pray to have happen to Catholics.

Well, it will probably come as no surprise that I don’t think that I have failed God’s test re: Deut 13:2-6. If I thought Jesus was actually violating this passage, I would, of course, have rejected him. But I used to think very differently about this passage than I do now.

I will add that during my conversion process, I asked the God of Israel to show me what was true. I certainly didn’t pray in any way to/through Jesus, because I wasn’t yet sure what I thought about him.

Thing is. when the God of Israel answered my prayers (which, by the way, were never to confirm any preconceived notions that I had, rather, I asked for God to show me what was true about himself, regardless of whether or not I would feel “comfortable” with the answer) he made it very clear that Jesus is in fact the real deal.

Your last sentence gives me pause, as it appears to be taking a Jewish belief, and then by implication applying it to Catholicism and assuming that Catholics are praying for Jews to be separated from God when they (Catholics) pray that Jews will come to faith in Jesus? I am not certain if that is what you meant, though. Assuming that this is what you meant, I can tell you that Christian prayers for Jews in this way are not praying to separate Jews from God in the world-to-come. It may be very hard to understand this (hey–at least it was for me when I was your side of the fence) but these prayers are meant out of love and respect for the Jewish people, not out of malice. (Of course, that is a general statement, there are, unfortunately, exceptions, and I myself wince at their grossly misguided thinking.)

 

[coolduude]

My words in red

In Matthew 23:35 Jesus refers to Zechariah the son of Barachiah - however Zecharia was the son Jehoiada not Barachiah (2 Chron. 24:20 - 21)
See here: tektonics.org/lp/matt2335.html

In Mark 2:25-26 Jesus refers to how David entered the house of God in the days of Albiathar the high priest - however Ahimelech was the high priest at the time not Albiathar (1 Samuel 21:2)
See here: google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&ved=0CBQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbible.org%2Farticle%2Fmark-226-and-problem-abiathar&ei=JS-5S-qhKZTeNbq_wOEL&usg=AFQjCNGuDJffNJqPpBabQofEz9HPFtGSxQ

In John 7:37-38 Jesus states “as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water” - the only problem is that no such scripture exists in the Tanach
See: net.bible.org/verse.php?book=joh&chapter=7&verse=38

In Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 the Tanach explains that God is not a human being and does not lie
Then how do you explain Ezekiel 34:14-15 and Isaiah 9:6-7?

The Jesus in John 18:20 tells the high priest after his arrest that he taught openly and said nothing in secret. However if we examine Mark 5:43, 1:44,7:36,8:30 and 9:9 we see that this is a lie.
All of those verses you list are healings, not teachings. The high priest was accusing Jesus of teaching false doctrine, not providing false miracles.

The behaviour of Jesus toward a non-Jew was problematic (Mark 15:22 and Mark 7:26)- not very “godlike” and in contradiction to Talmudic teaching of the Pharisees who Jesus loved to slander (Talmud Gitten 61a, Talmud Avot 4:3, Talmud Baba Kama 38a) - dealt with
Mark 15:22 states:
“They brought Jesus to the place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull).” I fail to see how that shows Jesus mistreating anyone. Mark 7:26 shows what nationality the woman was (a Greek), but Jesus cured her daughter. How is the bad treatment?
Jesus did not ‘slander’ the Pharisees, rather he tried to open their eyes. I can provide Scripture reference if needed.

As to the morally problematic statements by Jesus and how there were two sets of teachings one for others and one for his own enemies this was also dealt with in another post.

Jesus sinned by destroying the fig tree - dealt with

I disagree. See: christiancourier.com/articles/646-why-did-jesus-curse-the-fig-tree

Jesus sinned against the Pharisees - dealt with
Not true. gospelway.com/topics/bible/jesus_sabbath.php

Jesus sinned by ordering his disciple to violate the commandments to honor his father and mother and to promptly bury the dead (Matthew 8:21-23 -see commandments Deuteronomy 5:16,21:23)
See: biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Matt/Following-Where-Jesus-Leads

Jesus was baptized himself for remission of sin - dealt with
Wasn’t this already explained?
See here: carm.org/questions/why-was-jesus-baptized

 

[FanChan]

coolduude - Thanks so much for all of those links! It was a pleasure going through and having a close look at all of those objections and rebuttals.

 

[DLT]

Yes, Hosea 9:16 certainly tells how God can curse a tree and it dies, “Ephraim is stricken, their root is dried up; they shall bear no fruit. My God will disown them because they have not listened to him: they shall be wanderers among the nations.”

 

[crazzeto]

Great post, I had a couple comments on things you didn’t quite mention directly

More importantly, what exactly are they asking of God who made an eternal covenant with the Jews. Are they asking God to help the Jews break their eternal covenant with God or are they asking God to break His eternal covenant with the Jewish people?

Neither, actually. But again, I really do understand why observant Jews (I am assuming that you are one–I ask your pardon if I am incorrect in that assumption) would believe as you have stated above.

I can see what terms Chosen is looking at this in, in fact it’s a very similar view point that Protistant Christians take with the Sacarde Scriptures. It’s an either/or view point. Either you are saved by Faith in God, or you are saved by your adherance to the works of the law. At least that is how I, a complete gentile Christian am seeing this comment, if that is not the case either one of you feel free to jump in since you both seem to be on the same page there as far as understanding.

I would suggest what is needed is to take a step back, and try out a “both and” view point, a view point pulmigated by the (Jewish) Apostles of Christ. God’s Covenants, all of them, are eternal. Rather, Christ came to fulfill certain covenant promises, and certain prophacies (such as spreading the faith to the Gentiles). So no one is asking for any Jew to break any covenant promise to God, but rather recognized how the eternal covenants are fulfilled in the comming of the messiah. I think that Chosen would have to agree with at least this much, the coming of the massiah is a game changer.

A Jew (but not a gentile) who falls away from the covenant and worships a man has failed God’s test for the Jews in Deuteronomy 13:2-6. His penalty is separation from God in the world to come. This is not something we Jews would pray to have happen to Catholics.

Well, it will probably come as no surprise that I don’t think that I have failed God’s test re: Deut 13:2-6. If I thought Jesus was actually violating this passage, I would, of course, have rejected him. But I used to think very differently about this passage than I do now.

I will add that during my conversion process, I asked the God of Israel to show me what was true. I certainly didn’t pray in any way to/through Jesus, because I wasn’t yet sure what I thought about him.

Thing is. when the God of Israel answered my prayers (which, by the way, were never to confirm any preconceived notions that I had, rather, I asked for God to show me what was true about himself, regardless of whether or not I would feel “comfortable” with the answer) he made it very clear that Jesus is in fact the real deal.

Your last sentence gives me pause, as it appears to be taking a Jewish belief, and then by implication applying it to Catholicism and assuming that Catholics are praying for Jews to be separated from God when they (Catholics) pray that Jews will come to faith in Jesus? I am not certain if that is what you meant, though. Assuming that this is what you meant, I can tell you that Christian prayers for Jews in this way are not praying to separate Jews from God in the world-to-come. It may be very hard to understand this (hey–at least it was for me when I was your side of the fence) but these prayers are meant out of love and respect for the Jewish people, not out of malice. (Of course, that is a general statement, there are, unfortunately, exceptions, and I myself wince at their grossly misguided thinking.)

I’ll include the passage here for everyone’s benifit:

Deu 13:2 And that come to pass which he spoke, and he say to thee: Let us go and follow strange gods, which thou knowest not, and let us serve them:
Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hear the words of that prophet or dreamer: for the Lord your God trieth you, that it may appear whether you love him with all your heart, and with all your soul, or not.

But Christ wasn’t saying “let us go and follow strange gods, which you knowest not, and let us serve them”. Rather Jesus was saying, “I am God”.

Joh 8:57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old. And hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.
Joh 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him. But Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

The Apostles say this too:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.
…
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.

There is certainly more, but I think I might be at risk of running into the max character count

 

[DLT]

Crezzeto, that is exactly the point that the Catholic Church and most other Christians try to make to the Jewish people: Jesus Christ is not a “strange” god, but the Old Testament God incarnated. Christ fulfilled the ritual law of the Old Testament, but the moral law is still in effect. The gods and goddesses that the Lord told the Jews in the Old Testament not to follow were, for the most part, very immoral according to Jewish teachings. Jesus Christ according to Christian teaching and proper Jewish teaching followed the Commandments perfectly and was sexually pure, for a god in human form, since he was celebate unlike the Old Testament pagan gods who practice all kinds of immorality, including sodomy, incest, fornication and adultery and sometimes required human sacrifice. If Christ had had sexual contact with a mortal woman, even in marriage, then he would have been nothing more than a human being or another pagan god since the God of the Old Testament was not sexual.

 

[coolduude]

Do you have a response Chosen People? Otherwise I’ll have to assume the argument has been conceded.

 

[UnworthyApostle]

I will let someone much more versed in the subject than myself give an answer, so I refer you to Dave Armstrong at:
socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/06/old-testament-and-jewish-conceptions-of.html

 

[PUP]

Go to this site. There are a few answers!

%between%

 

[DLT]

I will let someone much more versed in the subject than myself give an answer, so I refer you to Dave Armstrong at:
socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/06/old-testament-and-jewish-conceptions-of.html

If Zohar 2:12a is correctly quoted on this website, It is very close to the Christian teaching on Jesus of Nazareth. I quote it: "When God created the world, He stretched out His hand under the throne of His glory, and brought forth the soul of the Messiah. He said to him, "Will you heal and redeem my sons after 6000 years? He answered, ‘I will.’ Then God said to him: 'Will you then bear the punishment in order to blot out their sins, as it is written, “But he bore our diseases.” (53.4a). And he answered Him: ‘I will joyfully bear them.’ " (cf. Zohar, 2:212a).

 

[DLT]

Furthermore, I have just read on the Wikipedia free online encyclopedia that Zohar, iii.288b, says the following: " The Ancient of Days has three heads. He reveals himself in three archtypes, all three forming but one. He is thus symbolized by the number Three. They are revealed in one another. These are: ] first, secret, hidden ‘Wisdom’; above that the Holy Ancient One; and above Him the Unknowable One. None knows what He contains; He is above all conception. He is threfore called for man ‘Non-Existing’ [Ajin] ’ "

Good grief! how can anyone of Jewish descent read all this, especially those who reverence the Zohar, and not believe in Christianity, or how can they say that Christians are blasphemous when they worship the Divine Son of God, Jesus, if many of their own rabbis believe God is Three in One as is the Christians’ Holy Trinity?

 

[coolduude]

I’m not an expert on Judaism so you lost me on those posts DLT. Who is Zohar and what is that stuff you quoted from him? And are there any other non-canonical sources I should be aware of? I’m clueless outside of the Bible