Jews--Christians--Muslims...same God?

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SonCatcher said:
No one understands it except for God. These wonderful descriptions we see on CAF and elsewhere can help us to accept this mystery but not really to understand it.
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Thank you for your words. I’m sure they’re comforting words for many 🙂
 
Razanir said:
I understand that. My point was just that they effectively worship the whole without realizing God exists as a Trinity. Any analogy necessarily treats God as parts because the only thing that exists as a Trinity is God. The parts in my analogy by no means indicates that I’m a heretic
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I never inferred such a thing. The issue was only with the analogy used.
 
SonCatcher said:
I never inferred such a thing. The issue was only with the analogy used.
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Ah. Yeah, it wasn’t really the best analogy, but I needed three things combining into one and light seemed preferable to red+yellow+blue=brown/black
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Explicit denial of Jesus Christ as God, thus denying a person of hte trinity, thus denying God, means you cannot have the same God as a Muslim or a jew who openly rejects Jesus or his divinity.
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:banghead:

What about those who do not know enough to accept him?
 
While on this topic, what about Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses. I know the Church doesn’t consider them Christian because they’re non-Trinitarian, but do we at least say they still worship the same god? Non-Trinitarianism certainly doesn’t stop Judaism and Islam from worshipping the same god.
 
Razanir said:
An analogy with light for the Muslim and Jewish view of God. Suppose God is white light, and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are red, green and blue light. That is, together they make up God. We know that this white light is made of parts, but they don’t. They choose only to worship the white light, or more accurately, the red one.
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I think virtually all analogies that try to explain the Trinity fail to some extent. That’s why the Church has wisely called the Trinity a mystery. In the light analogy, I see the problem, from the Christian as well as the Jewish standpoint, is that you are dividing the white light into parts which together form the full spectrum of light. However, according to the Christian understanding of the Trinity, G-d is NOT divisible even though He consists of three distinct Persons. For Jews and Muslims, even the idea that G-d reveals Himself in three distinct Persons comes too close to a breach of monotheism.

Another question relative to the topic: what do Jews, Muslims, and Christians think about Oneness Pentecostals who worship Jesus only, not the Father and not the Holy Spirit? Do they worship the same G-d?
 
meltzerboy said:
I think virtually all analogies that try to explain the Trinity fail to some extent. That’s why the Church has wisely called the Trinity a mystery.
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Correction: ALL analogies fail. Practically any analogy drawn to anything besides God seem modalistic. (Modalism– Heresy that God is either the Father, Son or Holy Spirit at any given time, but never all three) The closest analogy I can think of on earth is the triple point of water where water vapor, liquid water and ice coexist. But even that fails because any given molecule is still only one of the three
 
Razanir said:
While on this topic, what about Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses. I know the Church doesn’t consider them Christian because they’re non-Trinitarian, but do we at least say they still worship the same god? Non-Trinitarianism certainly doesn’t stop Judaism and Islam from worshipping the same god.
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Mormons are polytheistic, even in their idea of the Godhead. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are defined as “separate and distinct beings” which means, three gods. It only starts there.
 
meltzerboy said:
I think virtually all analogies that try to explain the Trinity fail to some extent. That’s why the Church has wisely called the Trinity a mystery. In the light analogy, I see the problem, from the Christian as well as the Jewish standpoint, is that you are dividing the white light into parts which together form the full spectrum of light. However, according to the Christian understanding of the Trinity, G-d is NOT divisible even though He consists of three distinct Persons. For Jews and Muslims, even the idea that G-d reveals Himself in three distinct Persons comes too close to a breach of monotheism.

Another question relative to the topic: what do Jews, Muslims, and Christians think about Oneness Pentecostals who worship Jesus only, not the Father and not the Holy Spirit? Do they worship the same G-d?
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You are correct. There is really no way to define the Trinity in human language.
 
Razanir said:
Correction: ALL analogies fail. Practically any analogy drawn to anything besides God seem modalistic. (Modalism– Heresy that God is either the Father, Son or Holy Spirit at any given time, but never all three) The closest analogy I can think of on earth is the triple point of water where water vapor, liquid water and ice coexist. But even that fails because any given molecule is still only one of the three
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The following is a quote from Soren1 (a previous poster on this forum) that I think sheds some light on this subject. I use to use the water analogy until I read this:

"The water, ice, and steam analogy is wrong for most purposes. The only thing it is good for is the logical point that “one and three” is not automatically contradictory if “one” and “three” reckon according to different rationales. But as an account of how the persons in the Trinity are actually distinct it is totally wrong. There are not three forms of God, because God’s form is the same as his being.
 
For simplicity, I put this way:

Jews are descendants of Isaac
Muslim are descendants of Ishmael

Both Isaac and Ishmael are Abraham’s offsprings (with different mothers)

==> Jews and Muslims are half brothers

Christians, by faith, are considered as adopted children of Abraham

===> Jews, Muslims, Christians are essentially brothers and they used to kill each other on behalf of their heavenly Father (God).
 
aidanbradypop said:
The word Allah is the Arabic equivalent to the English word God. The word Allah is used by Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews as well as Muslims. Although they have an incomplete understanding of the nature and revelation of God, Muslims worship the same God whom Christians and Jews worship.

“The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.” (Nostra Aetate 3)
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I always find it interesting that Catholics are fond of pointing to the teachings of the Magisterium and the Pope to prove a point…unless it disagrees with their own beliefs and prejudices…

Of course we worship the same God…we all worship the God of Abraham…Allah is Arabic for “God”…I guess for those Christians who speak Arabic and address God as “Allah” don’t worship the same God as those of us in English speaking countries…come on…they don’t use the word “God”…but then neither do Spanish speakers…they call God “Dios”…the French call God “Deiu”…Germans “Gott”…only us English speakers worship the True God because we use the word “God” in addressing Him…really?🤷
 
SteveVH said:
:banghead:

What about those who do not know enough to accept him?
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If they do not explicitely deny the son, if they seek God however he has revealed himself (without denying who he is) I will concede it is possible that God may redeem them. Though this is but guesswork, only God knows. But how can we say we have the same God as those who deny who God is? Muslims deny Jesus as the eternal son of God proceeding from the father from all eternity. This is wrong.
 
Razanir said:
Then how do you explain the Old Testament. If Jews really worship a different God than us, wouldn’t using their holy book be the same as taking Greek mythology and replacing all references to Zeus with references to God?
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I would argue in the old testament that they worshipped a multi-personal God. They worshipped what God had revealed to them, it was never denied by the prophets that God was more than one unique person. There are old testament passages which show this, the angel of the Lord for instance who is and speaks from the burning bush as God, God’s wisdom, and the destruction of Sodem and Gomorah (Ie the Lord from heaven reigned fire to the Lord on earth). As I am aware certain jews did believe that mroe than one person constituted God, though with rabbanic judaism and its developing along side of Christianity it seems they favoured unitarianism.

Ultimately however the muslim who denies the son, denies the father and the spirit. For the son and the father share the exact same substance.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
If they do not explicitely deny the son, if they seek God however he has revealed himself (without denying who he is) I will concede it is possible that God may redeem them. Though this is but guesswork, only God knows.
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Yes, that’s the point. I don’t know if they will be saved but I certainly can’t say they are condemned by their ignorance. God has provided the normal means to be saved but he is not limited by any means. He gave his life for the Muslims as well.
IgnatianPhilo said:
But how can we say we have the same God as those who deny who God is? Muslims deny Jesus as the eternal son of God proceeding from the father from all eternity. This is wrong.
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When Paul went to Athens he stopped at a shrine to “The Unknown God”. Paul told them that they do not know who they worship. He then explained to them who the unkown God was. Because Muslims worship of the God of Abraham, they worship the same God, even though they do not know him as revealed through Jesus Christ. God is not bound by our human definitions or knowledge.

Now, if one becomes educated and catechized in the Christian faith and then rejects it, that is another story altogether, and not a pretty one.
 
The thing is it is not ignorance, but direct denial. Muslims who take their faith seriously, totally deny the deity of the son. So its not ignorance, its explicit denial of what is truth. And Christ says, he who denies the son denies the father. Now I think the difference in regaurds to the unknown God, is that precisely the unknown God was unknown. The Greeks did not know the true God who was unknown to them and could not speak as to deny properties about him. But Paul revealed who the unknown God is, that is the true God, Jesus Christ.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
The thing is it is not ignorance, but direct denial. Muslims who take their faith seriously, totally deny the deity of the son. So its not ignorance, its explicit denial of what is truth. And Christ says, he who denies the son denies the father. Now I think the difference in regaurds to the unknown God, is that precisely the unknown God was unknown. The Greeks did not know the true God who was unknown to them and could not speak as to deny properties about him. But Paul revealed who the unknown God is, that is the true God, Jesus Christ.
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I hear what you are saying, but you don’t see the double standard?
 
English is not my first language, so I’m sorry for any misspelling.
I don’t think Jews also worship the same God anymore. However, God in Islam has no son, and actually in the Quran, it says that who say that Jesus Christ is the son of God, they will burn in hell forever because what they are saying is very bad thing, also, they don’t believe that Jesus died on the cross, now they believe that he was raised to heaven, but he didn’t die. they believe that Marry is version, also, they believe in the Torah and the Gospel, BUT not the one we have now, they believe that people changed and played with the Bible and it is not useful anymore, so, the Quran is the only book that God protected from any harm.
 
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