R
- Status
S
Sepharad
Guest
Notzrim (Christians).
R
ralphinal
Guest
Sorry, I was not clear. What sin is that according to Jewish thought?
That is a cool word
S
Sepharad
Guest
I’m not sure what you mean.
R
ralphinal
Guest
Well, it must violate one of the commandments. Jews cannot accept the Trinity, right? Even if Jesus is not one of the Divine persons, there is no understanding of the Trinity in Judaism.
S
Sepharad
Guest
I don’t know how to explain this in a way that a nonJew will be able to understand…its going to sound confusing, and I have to explain some other things, too.
Do you know why most religious Jews get upset or concerned when Jews convert to another religion, yet do not try to convert Gentiles already in those religions to Judaism?
Because other religions’ practices are only deemed as idolatrous when practiced by Jews. Jewish law has never regarded idol worship as something Gentiles are forbidden from doing; it only becomes idolatry when Jews do it.
This is because Jews alone were given a Divine Covenant to keep Torah, and nothing else. If a Jew does ANYTHING apart from that, involving another religion…even if its converting to a religion (like Islam) that is truly seen by all as monotheistic, it is still regarded as “idolatry”. I know that makes no sense, but that is now Judaism sees it.
In ancient times, some Jewish sources sometimes did refer to some Christians as “idolaters”, but only when they were of Jewish origin. They would have referred to them that way even if they had converted to a religion that everyone deemed as truly monotheistic.
God never had a real problem with Gentiles worshipping idols or gods other than Him…the only time He had a problem was when they worshipped their idols in ways that were abhorrent, such as sacrificing their children to their idols. This is seen in Deut 12, when God warns the Jewish people not to inquire as to HOW other peoples worshipped their gods, so that they could do the same*…“for every abomination did those people do unto their gods; they even offer up sacrifices of their sons and daughters to their gods.”*
I hope I explained this right!
R
ralphinal
Guest
No, that makes perfect sense to me. In fact, it is only logical.
So, Jewish Christians were idolaters, while gentiles were not. Is that correct?
Further, does it bother Jews that we ride your coattails as far as the Ten Commandments and all that goes?
S
Sepharad
Guest
I was afraid I explained it in a way that was too confusing!
Yes, the way you deduced it is what I was trying to say.
It does not bother Jews when Christians accept our holy books, etc as their own…in some ways, we feel complimented! Our only problem is that Christians change (in our view) the correct understanding of much that is in our books, and then turn around and insist we convert to Christianity based on the new, changed interpretations.
Its like when Kaninchen ( I think it was) replied to a Christian in another thread (who was thanking him as a Jew for the “gift of Jesus”), “You’re welcome for the gift, but please stop trying to give him back!”
R
ralphinal
Guest
Well, I understand how you feel. It’s just that we see him there and want to share. You do not and do not want to be bothered. At least we stopped burning you until you gave inI was afraid I explained it in a way that was too confusing!
Yes, the way you deduced it is what I was trying to say.
It does not bother Jews when Christians accept our holy books, etc as their own…in some ways, we feel complimented! Our only problem is that Christians change (in our view) the correct understanding of much that is in our books, and then turn around and insist we convert to Christianity based on the new, changed interpretations.
Its like when Kaninchen ( think it was) replied to a Christian in another thread (who was thanking him as a Jew for the “gift of Jesus”), “You’re welcome for the gift, but please stop trying to give him back!”
Are Gentile Christians considered rightous gentiles? Are we considered to be following the Noahide laws?
S
Sepharad
Guest
BTW thanks that you guys finally stopped doing that a few centuries ago…as much as I admire Joan of Arc, I didn’t want to wind up like her!Well, I understand how you feel. It’s just that we see him there and want to share. You do not and do not want to be bothered. At least we stopped burning you until you gave in
Are Gentile Christians considered rightous gentiles? Are we considered to be following the Noahide laws?
And YES, whereas Jewish Christians (or Jewish Muslims, or Jewish Buddhists, or Jewish whatever) are seen as idolaters, Gentile Christians are seen as Righteous Gentiles. And since the Noahide laws are basic laws of common morality, I’d say practically every believing Gentile Christian could be called a Noahide (unless they are in a state of mortal sin from murdering someone, which I’d hope not!)
See how much better you guys have it than the Jews amongst you (or than the Jews amongst US for that matter, because we have 613 laws to follow too!)
R
ralphinal
Guest
Oh come off it, you guys own the banks, all industries, all the media, Hollywood, the music business, etc. So a few ancestors got the hot-foot. It was worth itBTW thanks that you guys finally stopped doing that a few centuries ago…as much as I admire Joan of Arc, I didn’t want to wind up like her!
And YES, whereas Jewish Christians (or Jewish Muslims, or Jewish Buddhists, or Jewish whatever) are seen as idolaters, Gentile Christians are seen as Righteous Gentiles. And since the Noahide laws are basic laws of common morality, I’d say practically every observant Gentile Christian could be called a Noahide.
See how much better you guys have it than the Jews amongst you?
S
Sepharad
Guest
Good point…we also control the Freemasons (you forgot them), plus we have that Elders of Zion network, don’t forget them. Of course we lost the USSR, we had that one going pretty strong.Oh come off it, you guys own the banks, all industries, all the media, Hollywood, the music business, etc. So a few ancestors got the hot-foot. It was worth it
So much to do, so little time!
R
ralphinal
Guest
The one that I always loved is the Zionist-Vatican collaboration. Talk about not knowing any history.Good point…we also control the Freemasons (you forgot them), plus we have that Elders of Zion network, don’t forget them. Of course we lost the USSR, we had that one going pretty strong.
So much to do, so little time!
Back on point,
We can say that the Talmud does not say anything about Jesus. We can also say that there are more reasons that Jews do not accept him than can be placed on the Talmud. Right?
S
Sepharad
Guest
Right!The one that I always loved is the Zionist-Vatican collaboration. Talk about not knowing any history.
Back on point,
We can say that the Talmud does not say anything about Jesus. We can also say that there are more reasons that Jews do not accept him than can be placed on the Talmud. Right?
BTW you have to PM me on that Zionist-Vatican thing…this is the first I’ve heard of it!
I
Isa_Almisry
Guest
As the author of the Lord of the Rings stated that it was at first unconsciously Catholic, and then consciously so (a fact the atheirst director failed in his best efforts to hide), that will do too.
But as to what you meant to say: the NT is as firmly (as we know, firmer) as the Talmud based on the OT; certainly more so than Reformed Judaism. We won’t even talk about recontructionist.
I
Isa_Almisry
Guest
Hate and destroy? Without them it wouldnn’t exist.
Yes, there is a lot of racism in the Talmud, as elsewhere, but also a lot of nobiliity. Focus on that.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Obviously you believe that, on the other hand, as far as I’m concerned, the NT is just ‘Lord of The Rings’. Now, we can either continue saying these things to one another or not but, since neither of us is going to move an inch, there would seem to be little point.
I
Isa_Almisry
Guest
Straining gnats are we? Btw, I can read both Hebrew and Aramaic, so am quite capable of getting it from the Talmud itself.BTW its “Yoma”, not “Yom” (maybe if you’d gotten that info from the Talmud itself, and not from a Christian missionary resource, you’d have known that)
Anyway, here is an explanation:
outreachjudaism.org/Yomkippur.html
As for you site, it talks much as says little.
I’ve been in court plenty, and know that sometimes the duty of the fact finder is to ascertain the facts independent of the witnesses interpretation of them. So interpreting the sign as disfavor with Jews accepting Jesus as Messiah does not stand it on its head as he would claim.
As for the return to sacrifices, again that’s an interpretation (one the Evangelicals share, which should tell about the problems in their own Christianity), which won’t be tested until if and when the Temple is rebuild (and despite several startups, it hasn’t yet). btw the reformed, and perhaps the conservatives have moved towards an idea akin the Orthodox Catholic understanding of the matter, just we believe they have been fulfilled (i.e. Divine Liturgy).
A lot of maybes are thrown out, but sustained proof?
As to the gradual decline in the miracles, this too accords to what Christianity has taught. For example Eusebius, among others points out that someone not of the line of David ruled as king of the Jews, and had destroyed the temple records to hide his non-Jewish roots. The Romans put up and deposed High Priest at whim. There were signs because the Prophecy of Shilah “to Whom it belongs” was come. Jesus the Christ, both King and High Priest. The lines of David and Aarom were passing away to their ultimate source and goal.
As to spiritual decay, it doesn’t seem to have been worse then what the Bible records for the destruction of the First Temple. It fact, it was much better.
As to his closing remarks: MARANTHA!
I
Isa_Almisry
Guest
The laws of evdience says otherwise. Trapping someone in their own testimony is the point of cross examination, counselor.
I
Isa_Almisry
Guest
Wrong. A handy summary in the Encyclopedia Judaica, on “Jesus”
Btw, another concept, which I did not get from the Talmud but form Jewish summaries: about the Messiah ben Yoseph, a suffering messiah, which seems to fit quite nicely with the NT on this theme. Any comments?
- Status