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Kaninchen
Guest
I’m quite positive that no rabbi has appropriated the OT.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
Your line of argument shows otherwise. You seem to give priority to their interpretation, for whatever reason. Are you misundersood?
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Kaninchen
Guest
Why on earth would a rabbi appropriate the OT when he had the Tanakh?
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
What makes you say he had the OT/Tanakh?
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Sepharad
Guest
Kaninchen, I was mystified for the longest time as to why she is so arrogant, triumphalistic and yes, seemingly antiJewish in many ways…until I noticed her sig line.
I have known Eastern Orthodox Christians in the past, and without exceptionl they were all like that. I don’t know why.
Maybe just consider the source, as they say?
Isa, Are you also an Old Calendarist, by any chance?
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Sepharad
Guest
At least the Roman Catholics here have not been so arrogant as to claim the Jewish people stole their OWN books. Good grief!
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Angelos
Guest
Without the NT, the Tanakh makes no sense to me. My Jewish brothers and sisters are free to steal their own books and manipulate them if that’s the only way they can refute our claims and tenets.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
Kaninchen, I was mystified for the longest time as to why she is so arrogant, triumphalistic and yes, seemingly antiJewish in many ways…until I noticed her sig line.
I have known Eastern Orthodox Christians in the past, and without exceptionl they were all like that. I don’t know why.
Maybe just consider the source, as they say?
Isa, Are you also an Old Calendarist, by any chance?
- I’m a he (don’t worry I get the mistake all the time from the names. I used to get invitations to the MIss Illinois pagent. Btw, it’s Arabic for Jesus).
- I am vehemently opposed to Old Calendarism, the Old Calendar (though I don’t think the New should be imposed, and it is not a matter of dogma), the idea of lack of grace in the non-Orthodox churches (I recognize the Real Presence in a Eucharist consecrated by priests consecrated by Rome, so much that I will prostrate if I walk in on adoration. I don’t know if that means anything to you), and the idea that the Hebrew nation has been replaced as the chosen people, least of all by the Greeks. I’ve gotten into several heating arguments with my fellow Orthodox on the above, including the crypto-Marcionism of the last.
- Was raised and confirmed Protestant (Lutheran) went to a Latin school, and converted to Orthodoxy.
- Mother comes from a Jewish family (my brother jokes “want to see the scar?”), who had been Lutheran for several generations. One of the family traditions was/is eating Matzos (now in pancake form) on Good Friday. My Grandmother, whom I loved dearly and whose favorite grandchild I was, was a caricature of the Jewish grandmother. She was a Yiddish speaker, btw, although her grandparent’s generation was the one who converted I beieve.
- Can read (speak, not so well) Hebrew (Biblical and Modern), Aramaic and Yiddish.
- It’s hard to be humble when you’re Orthodox.
Therein lies the contention. I don’t buy that the rabbis have the copyright, the Church does. And the Church is a Hebrew institution.
Rome has had a problem with the OT at least since Jerome. As Augustine pointed out, we walk in the way (halakha) of the Apostles, and not the Pharisees, Sadducees or Scribes.
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Sepharad
Guest
How does a religious group “steal” what was always theirs in the first place?
And the Jewish Bible is not supposed to “make sense” to Gentiles. It was never given to Gentiles, only to the Jewish people! It makes perfect sense to me, but guess what? That’s because I’m Jewish. The Quran makes no sense to me, but maybe that’s because I’m not Muslim. The Book of Mormon also makes no sense to me, maybe because I’m not Mormon.
If any “stealing” took place, it was Christians taking our Bible from us, changing around the meaning of it to make it better fit their new religion, and then taking it to bash us over the head with in their attempt to get us to accept their new religion.
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Angelos
Guest
I expect that my remarks below will mean something to you
This is how Jewish apologists reason:
a) Jesus was not married.
b) Every Jew is supposed to get married to obey the divine commandment in Genesis.
c) Since Jesus did not marry, He was not a true Jew. Thus, He cannot be the Messiah.
It is not only Christians that look at Jesus in the NT first and then go to the Tanakh to support their arguments. Jews do the same thing to refute our claims.
(note: Elijah, one of the greatest “Jewish” prophets, was not married
)
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Sepharad
Guest
Ah, you are a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy. So were all the other Orthodox I’ve met. That explains a lot.
As for #6, although I am not Christian, I do know that one central trait of true Christians is humility. If you admittedly do not have it, maybe you need to do some introspection to find out why.
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Sepharad
Guest
Correction: It is not true that if a male Jew never marries, he is not a true JEW. One becomes a Jew by birth or by proper conversion, and this cannot be changed. Even Jews who apostasize remain technically Jewish under Jewish law, they are simply excommunicated and cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery, marry in a synagogue, etc…but if they repent and return, they are accepted.I expect that my remarks below will mean something to you
This is how Jewish apologists reason:
a) Jesus was not married.
b) Every Jew is supposed to get married to obey the divine commandment in Genesis.
c) Since Jesus did not marry, He was not a true Jew. Thus, He cannot be the Messiah.
And yes it is true that Jesus did not fulfill/keep all of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) of the Torah, since he did not fulfill the very first one, pru erevu, which means, “Be fruitful and multiply”.
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Angelos
Guest
Your argument makes little sense to me since the Tanakh does not only narrate the genesis of Jewish people, but also of the whole mankind. How can you manipulate the first man and the father of human race? How can you manipulate one true God??? Which commandment in the Torah forbids Jews from sharing the divine truth with men?
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Angelos
Guest
You should go and remove Elijah from the list of your great prophets.
… or simply say that Elijah obeyed the commandment to be fruitful by multiplying food
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Sepharad
Guest
If you carefully read the Jewish Bible, you will find that the Torah (the 5 Books of Moses part) at least, was given only to the Jewish people.
Even Jesus, whom Gentiles worship, said to his followers that they are not to go in the way of the Gentiles, for “I am sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel” (Mt 15:24 and Mt 10:5-6). That is one reason why I believe that it was never the intent of Jesus to form a new religion (much less for Gentiles), but rather, his intent was to purify his own religion…the Judaism of his day.
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Angelos
Guest
Why then did God talk about the creation of mankind and other nations to Jews?? You previously said the book of Mormon made no sense to you because you were not a Mormon. Can you say the accounts about the Gentiles in the book of Genesis make no sense to you because you are not a Goyyim???
If you read the Gospels carefully and grasp the significance of the notion of “context”, you will see that Jesus’ commandment to His disciples (go to the lost sheep of Israel!) was not a permanent rule or the final destination of His teachings. It was only a station on the way to the declaration of the Good News to the whole world after Jesus’ resurrection.
Shalom to Israel
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
In reverse order:
The OT was translated by Hebrews into the Septuagint before the coming of Christ. The Letter of Pseudo-Aristeas (2 cent. BC) attests to the reverence that the translation had from Jews/Hebrew by the rabbinic definition. So at worst, it wasn’t stolen, it was served us on a platter. Furthermore, as the NT shows, the Early Church was not “they” but “us.” All the early Christians were Jews by the rabbinic definition of the word. That’s why the 12th benediction was stuck into the amidah, to expel the minim, i.e. the Christians.
Of course, the problem was that the minim proved too successful, so the rabbis came up with their own translations from the Septuagint. Aquila, a disciple of Akiba (the “Head of the Sages,” according to the rabbis, who named Bar Kochba as the messiah. That he named a false messiah-I assume you think Bar Kochba is false-doesn’t seem to have led the rabbis to revolk his Jewish credentials) did one, as did Theodotion (whose version of Daniel the Christians even adopted in preference to the Septuagint. Interesting, he included the additions that the Masorites rejected, as we still have them. He wrote aroud 200 AD, i.e. around the time of the redaction of the Talmud and well after the split with the Chruch). The Ebionites, a Judeo-Christian sect, produced the version of Symmachus: as the Ebionites denied Chrsit’s divinity, Symmachus’ editing of the anthropomorphism of the OT are of note. Like Symamachus, these later versions all show reaction to the rise of Christianity based on the pre-Christian, ie. predating Christ, translation by the Hebrews.
Finally, the rabbis got tired and banned translations altogether. The text they eventually settled on, the Masoretic text, postdates the Church by several centuries (and postdates Islam as well). It is not even the Hebrew text of Jerome (5th century). In seveal places, the Dead Sea Scrolls and other fragment from the years BC support the Septuagint text. Choosing among varients, those that favored Christian interpretation were disfavored, hence the Fathers accusation that the Jews were altering the text.
Another issue was the canon, which the rabbis did not decide until the council of Yabne, which didn’t happen until the rise of the Church. This leaves embarassing problems, as, for instance, the Book of Sirach was rejected but is cited and commented on in the Talmud (the Hebrew version was found in the Cairo Genizah). Rejection of Maccabbees also leaves Hanukkah witout scriptural mandate (yes, I’m aware that outside of Christendom, it’s not as big a holiday, but it is still celebrated. Btw, I’d be interested how big it is in the former Soviet Union, the third biggest homeland of Jews: there, since Christmas doesn’t come until January, and a strict fast during any time Hanukkah falls, there wouldn’t be the competition I would suppose). The popularity of these books amongst the Christians wasn’t without influence.
As for the Bible only being given only the Jews, several problems:
Jesus, His mother, all the Apostles, all the writers of the NT save one (St. Luke) were all Jews according to the rabbis definition of the term, and they of course had the Christian view of the OT, which is where we got it.
Obviously others get it as people not Mormon do convert to Mormonism, non-Muslims convert to Islam, and yes, throughout history goys have converted to rabbinic Judaism (the ger). Then there are the Gentiles for Judaism, the B’nei Noah.
Of course there is also the problem in that in several places the OT, whatever text you use, promises that the teaching of the OT would be given to the Gentiles, e.g. Isaiah 2. Btw, have you ever read the book of Jonah?
And finally, as the above shows, the Christian Church has not stolen what was always ours in the first place.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
I take great pride in Orthdoxy. As for myself, I don’t say usually that I am Orthodox as I do not live up to it, but merely that I am chrismated Orthodox.
The Orthodox Church, the New Israel, is the authoratative interpretor of the OT, her bishops the succesors of the Apostles, the successors of the patriarchs, the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem sits on David’s throne on earth as the promised Messiah Christ sits on it in Heaven. I shall never tire of repeating these truths, nor in defending them in face of denials of them.
And I know a lot of Orthodox from generations back. If you think that would make them more congenial to your interpretation of the place of the Jews, I’d guess again.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
So by your definition, the writers of the NT and the Apostles were still Jews.
Proper conversion. Like baptism?
Ah here the halakha of the Apostles and the Pharisees hit head on.
Of course Christ did fulfill/keep all the commandments. Espousing the Church, He has been fruitful and multiplied, filled the earh and subdued it, makding disciples of all nations. Further, as the Temple has been destroyed, the rabbis cannot fulfill them, but Christ in the Temple of His Body, still does, fulfilling the prophecy of Malachi (1:11), which has been pointed out since the 1st century of the Church.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
And His final words “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.” That’s in Matthew too.
As rules for ger, convert to Judaism are based on the Torah, Ex. 12:48, your first argument fails as well. Btw, the rabbis interpret the Blessing of Japheth to dwell in Shem’s tent, in the Torah (Geneis 9:27) as a reference to the translation of the Torah into Greek (LXX).
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