Jews, the Talmud, and Jesus

[Sepharad]

I take great pride in Orthdoxy. As for myself, I don’t say usually that I am Orthodox as I do not live up to it, but merely that I am chrismated Orthodox.

The Orthodox Church, the New Israel, is the authoratative interpretor of the OT, her bishops the succesors of the Apostles, the successors of the patriarchs, the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem sits on David’s throne on earth as the promised Messiah Christ sits on it in Heaven. I shall never tire of repeating these truths, nor in defending them in face of denials of them.

And I know a lot of Orthodox from generations back. If you think that would make them more congenial to your interpretation of the place of the Jews, I’d guess again.

Oh, I agree quite well with your last paragraph. I have always known the Eastern Orthodox churches to be quite antiJewish. In fact in some ways they put the medieval Catholics to shame.

My paternal family is from the Ukraine; they came to the USA in 1908, when my grandfather was a boy of 11. The Tsar liked to recruit Jewish boys at the age of 12 into his army, in the hopes they would assimilate and forget they were Jewish (because age 12 is one yr before the Bar Mitzvah.)

I also remember my grandfather telling me of the pogroms (Russian for “violent riots”) that would take place against the Jews, every time it was a Christian holyday and the (Eastern Orthodox) priests would rile the people against “the christ killers”. Jews in the Ukraine knew to stay in doors on Christian holydays such as Good Friday and Easter, because that was usually when the worst pogroms would happen.

So yes, I know FULL WELL what the Eastern Orthodox of older generations think of us Jews, unfortunately. And you’re right: a convert to it cannot even come close to the way they thought of Jews!

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen, I was mystified for the longest time as to why she is so arrogant, triumphalistic and yes, seemingly antiJewish in many ways…until I noticed her sig line.

I have known Eastern Orthodox Christians in the past, and without exceptionl they were all like that. I don’t know why.

Maybe just consider the source, as they say?

Isa, Are you also an Old Calendarist, by any chance?

His: “All the naughty Jews went off on a tangent with their fraudulent and very, very naughty rabbis who stole the ‘Old Testament’ from the not-naughty Jewish people who followed the direct line with Christ,” at least has the virtue of some novelty around here, I suppose.

I don’t think he expects that it will work, I just think he wants to tell us that we’re the naughty descendants of very, very naughty people.

 

[Sepharad]

So by your definition, the writers of the NT and the Apostles were still Jews.

Proper conversion. Like baptism?

Ah here the halakha of the Apostles and the Pharisees hit head on.

Of course Christ did fulfill/keep all the commandments. Espousing the Church, He has been fruitful and multiplied, filled the earh and subdued it, makding disciples of all nations. Further, as the Temple has been destroyed, the rabbis cannot fulfill them, but Christ in the Temple of His Body, still does, fulfilling the prophecy of Malachi (1:11), which has been pointed out since the 1st century of the Church.

I figured you’d spiritualize away the true meaning somehow. After all, its hard to admit that Jesus did not keep the entire Torah, unless you are willing to believe he did have children.

And yes, the first Christians remained Jews, except that now they were regarded as minim (Hebrew for heretics). They often went into synagogues to stir up trouble, seek converts and disrupt services (just as “messianic Jews” sometimes do today).

The rabbis inserted a benediction against “minim” (which really included ALL heretical groups, not only the Christians)…figuring the minim would not be comfortable praying against themselves, and would leave.

It worked, I guess!

 

[Sepharad]

His: “All the naughty Jews went off on a tangent with their fraudulent and very, very naughty rabbis who stole the ‘Old Testament’ from the not-naughty Jewish people who followed the direct line with Christ,” at least has the virtue of some novelty around here, I suppose.

I don’t think he expects that it will work, I just think he wants to tell us that we’re the naughty descendants of very, very naughty people.

I suppose my zayde had to deal with it in Russia, and his granddaughter has to deal with it here.

Baruch Hashem, this time I live in the Goldene Medina…no maurauding Cossacks will show up at my door!

–Sepharad (who is, once again, reminded of why her grandparents came to this wonderful country)

 

[Kaninchen]

I suppose my zayde had to deal with it in Russia, and his granddaughter has to deal with it here.

Almost makes me glad my lot came from Germany(!) and Italy.

Thank God, this time I live in the Goldene Medina!

And me in “post-Christian world” - now one can look at ‘Catholic Europe’ as an interesting cultural phenomenon (and the architecture’s quite nice).

 

[Angelos]

When shall we discuss the Talmud and its references to Jesus? What do those “pogroms” have to do with the Talmud? Was it written by a Russian Jew?

I am a former Muslim, an Orthodox Christian now.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Oh, I agree quite well with your last paragraph. I have always known the Eastern Orthodox churches to be quite antiJewish. In fact in some ways they put the medieval Catholics to shame.

My paternal family is from the Ukraine; they came to the USA in 1908, when my grandfather was a boy of 11. The Tsar liked to recruit Jewish boys at the age of 12 into his army, in the hopes they would assimilate and forget they were Jewish (because age 12 is one yr before the Bar Mitzvah.)

I also remember my grandfather telling me of the pogroms (Russian for “violent riots”) that would take place against the Jews, every time it was a Christian holyday and the (Eastern Orthodox) priests would rile the people against “the christ killers”. Jews in the Ukraine knew to stay in doors on Christian holydays such as Good Friday and Easter, because that was usually when the worst pogroms would happen.

So yes, I know FULL WELL what the Eastern Orthodox of older generations think of us Jews, unfortunately. And you’re right: a convert to it cannot even come close to the way they thought of Jews!

Nor should they try.

As for the Orthodox Churches and antisemiticism, it somewhat reminds me of Begin’s remark (I think it was him) how Poles are raised anti-Semitic as mother’s milk. No mention of the fact that Poland was the only European country never to expel the Jews (which was why there was so many of them there). Don’t know how he would explain JP II’s relationships with Jews. I do recall a Holocaust testimony of a suvivor: she had been hidden by a Polish farmer who came one day to tie bells to his cart. There was a round up of Jews, and he was going to the parade. He reminded the family (he was hidding them all), that they should remember that when they killed the Lord, they tied bells and rejoiced at his Via Dolorossa. He never explained how he reconcilled this with the fact that he was risking his life and the lives of his entire family by hiding the Jewish family, a point that the survivor made.

A Jew who popularizes the stories of “righteous Gentiles” asks why everyone knows the names of Hitler, Ivan the terrible, etc. but no one knows the name of those who hid Ann Frank. The czar is almost always brought up with Jews I talk with about Orthodoxy, some even defining it as so. No mention or idea, for instance, of the story of the Bulgarian Church during the holocaust: Bulgaria ended up with more Jews than it started out with.

 

[reen12]

quote:Sepharad

It does not bother Jews when Christians accept our holy books, etc as their own…in some ways, we feel complimented! Our only problem is that Christians change (in our view) the correct understanding of much that is in our books, and then turn around and insist we convert to Christianity based on the new, changed interpretations

Bingo! What often comes to mind is the CC carrying on about
being the one, true Christian Church, vis a vis other Christian
denominations, because it was the earliest Church - and then this same Church finding it surprising -that members of the true faith refuse to abandon that faith - for a religion which states that God is three in one, one of which members became a God/man - to save people from that which does not exist = original sin.

The - ‘earliest’ faith is the ‘true’ faith approach - goes two ways.

Yes. I agree. Earliest is best. Earliest is true. Which is why
the first and only covenant reveals the will the God for all time.

No continuing revelation, no ‘fulness of revelation’ whatsoever.
Earliest = true.

reen12

 

[Sepharad]

Many Poles were antisemitic, but obviously not all of them.

What’s more, Poland is not an Orthodox country: they are Latin Rite Catholics.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I figured you’d spiritualize away the true meaning somehow.

So, Reforemed Jews doen’t count. Seems they have less than a literal interpretation of the Law.

And the prophets, etc. did quite a bit of spiritualizing, cf. David in Psalm 50 (your 51, the LXX is original, as the Masoretic text of Ps. 9-10 shows):16-7.

After all, its hard to admit that Jesus did not keep the entire Torah, unless you are willing to believe he did have children.

As a HUGE chunk of those 613 commandments have to do with the Temple cult, I think the rabbis have a bigger problem.

Further, as Yhwh himself orders Jerome not to marry (16), and Elijah doesn’t and yet is taken directly to heaven, from whence he will return, I don’t think this literal meaning is not as iron clad as you would like to portray.

Btw, the codification of “613 commandments” postdates the Church by quite a bit.

And yes, the first Christians remained Jews, except that now they were regarded as minim (Hebrew for heretics). They often went into synagogues to stir up trouble, seek converts and disrupt services (just as “messianic Jews” sometimes do today).

As I understand it, anyone could, and did, speak up in the synagogue. This was not unique to the Christians, and since there is no record I know of of the Christians not paying their “dues,” it was their right.

The rabbis inserted a benediction against “minim” (which really included ALL heretical groups, not only the Christians)…figuring the minim would not be comfortable praying against themselves, and would leave.

It worked, I guess!

Yes, leaving quite a legacy of good will when the Church became in the ascendent. As you sow…

And no, it was directed at the Judea-Christians, as the other groups associated with (Samaritans, Sadduccess, etc.) wouldn’t be in the synagogue in the first place. There is also evidence that the original wording had Nazerim (Nazarenes).

Didn’t work as well as they hoped: the service became the Liturgy of the Word, as the Divine Liturgy spread, not constrained by ethnocentrism, throughout the world.

 

[Sepharad]

Nor should they try.

As for the Orthodox Churches and antisemiticism, it somewhat reminds me of Begin’s remark (I think it was him) how Poles are raised anti-Semitic as mother’s milk. No mention of the fact that Poland was the only European country never to expel the Jews (which was why there was so many of them there). Don’t know how he would explain JP II’s relationships with Jews. I do recall a Holocaust testimony of a suvivor: she had been hidden by a Polish farmer who came one day to tie bells to his cart. There was a round up of Jews, and he was going to the parade. He reminded the family (he was hidding them all), that they should remember that when they killed the Lord, they tied bells and rejoiced at his Via Dolorossa. He never explained how he reconcilled this with the fact that he was risking his life and the lives of his entire family by hiding the Jewish family, a point that the survivor made.

I was speaking of Ukrainians, not Poles. My family did not come from Poland.

The Poles are Latin Rite Roman Catholics. The Ukrainians, for the most part, are Ukrainian Orthodox.

I’d love to hear stories of how religious Ukrainian Orthodox were helping hide Jews during the time of the Nazis…but I probably won’t, since so many of them, in their zeal to get rid of Jews, actually assisted the Einsatzgruppen in rounding up and killing Jews.

We can start a separate thread if you want to really get into this.

 

[Sepharad]

quote:Sepharad

Bingo! What often comes to mind is the CC carrying on about
being the one, true Christian Church, vis a vis other Christian
denominations, because it was the earliest Church - and then this same Church finding it surprising -that members of the true faith refuse to abandon that faith - for a religion which states that God is three in one, one of which members became a God/man - to save people from that which does not exist = original sin.

The - ‘earliest’ faith is the ‘true’ faith approach - goes two ways.

Yes. I agree. Earliest is best. Earliest is true. Which is why
the first and only covenant reveals the will the God for all time.

No continuing revelation, no ‘fulness of revelation’ whatsoever.
Earliest = true.

reen12

I believe the Roman Catholic church to be the original church (notice I did not say “true”, since, as a Jew, I do not hold any church to be “true”, at least not for me.)

I certainly know its not the Protestant churches (as much I have dear Protestant friends I know and love)…historically, their churches came along way too late to make any claim to originality.

And I know it is not the numerous Eastern Orthodox churches…one aspect of the original church would be its catholicity (universality)…the Orthodox churches are hopelessly divided along ethnic lines, and even some of those various ethnicities have issues with each other…so, nope, no original church there either, IMO (besides which, they also broke away over the issue of the Filioque in the Creed, circa 1054).

But even the original church has its issues…in researching the history of the RCC, I find many times, even before the Reformation, when the church had to deal with offshoot groups, etc The Panarion of St Epiphanius details many “heretical” sects in existence in the earlier days of the church.

I agree with you…what is oldest is best, because it has stood the test of time. For a Christian, that would mean the RCC. For me, as a Jew, it means Judaism in as original a form as possible. Which is why the Karaites can look mighty appealing at times!

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Almost makes me glad my lot came from Germany(!)

Interesting. How do you think Yiddish (a form of German) speakers ended up in Russia?

and Italy.

btw, when were the Jews let back in Italy. I know that they were there in the Medieval Period: the legend of “St.” Simon of Trent shows that, but I understand they were expelled after that.

And me in “post-Christian world” - now one can look at ‘Catholic Europe’ as an interesting cultural phenomenon (and the architecture’s quite nice).

Yes. I hope you enjoy the minarets going up in pre-Muslim Eurabia.

Postmodern architecture: leads to Socialist housing projects. Oy!

 

[Sepharad]

Yes, leaving quite a legacy of good will when the Church became in the ascendent. As you sow…

And no, it was directed at the Judea-Christians, as the other groups associated with (Samaritans, Sadduccess, etc.) wouldn’t be in the synagogue in the first place. There is also evidence that the original wording had Nazerim (Nazarenes).

Didn’t work as well as they hoped: the service became the Liturgy of the Word, as the Divine Liturgy spread, not constrained by ethnocentrism, throughout the world.

And would Christians do anything differently, if they had an offshoot group, constantly barging into their services, disrupting them, trying to convert their members?

As for “the Divine Liturgy spread, not constrained by ethnocentrism, throughout the world”…how can you honestly say that as an Orthodox Christian?

Are you even aware of how hopelessly divided your church is ALONG ETHNIC LINES? I know Orthodox Christians who badmouth other Orthodox Christians, simply because they worship in an ethnically different Orthodox church! I know one who actually ridicules the way Arab Orthodox pray, as opposed to the way her (Russian) Orthodox church does.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

quote:Sepharad

Bingo! What often comes to mind is the CC carrying on about
being the one, true Christian Church, vis a vis other Christian
denominations, because it was the earliest Church - and then this same Church finding it surprising -that members of the true faith refuse to abandon that faith - for a religion which states that God is three in one, one of which members became a God/man - to save people from that which does not exist = original sin.

The - ‘earliest’ faith is the ‘true’ faith approach - goes two ways.

Yes. I agree. Earliest is best. Earliest is true. Which is why
the first and only covenant reveals the will the God for all time.

No continuing revelation, no ‘fulness of revelation’ whatsoever.
Earliest = true.

reen12

Only problem, the NT and her Church are earlier than the Talmud and its rabbinate.

 

[Sepharad]

btw, when were the Jews let back in Italy. I know that they were there in the Medieval Period: the legend of “St.” Simon of Trent shows that, but I understand they were expelled after that.

QUOTE]

Jews have lived in Italy for 2000 years, off and on.

If you want to know anything about the history of the Italian Jews, PM me. My maternal ancestors, though originally from Toledo in Spain (1400s), fled to Sicily and Italy where they finally ended up converting (as conversos, not sincere converts) when the Sp Inquisition took those areas over as well. When my mother converted to Orthodox Judaism, she was, in actuality, simply returning to what her family had once been.

Or better yet, for more historical info, go here: rabbibarbara.com

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I was speaking of Ukrainians, not Poles. My family did not come from Poland.

The Poles are Latin Rite Roman Catholics. The Ukrainians, for the most part, are Ukrainian Orthodox.

I’d love to hear stories of how religious Ukrainian Orthodox were helping hide Jews during the time of the Nazis…but I probably won’t, since so many of them, in their zeal to get rid of Jews, actually assisted the Einsatzgruppen in rounding up and killing Jews.

We can start a separate thread if you want to really get into this.

I recall a show on some Jewish youth group which located elderly righteous gentiles. I remember quite a few of them were Ukrainians, and their houses (there were scenes of the youth bringing meals, etc.) filled with icons. One Ukrainian lady, when the narrator asked why she risked her life to hide Jews, said “because it was the Christian thing to do.”

My family (at least part) did come from Poland, not Ukraine. And I never have belonged to a Ukrainian Church. Btw, Poland has a large autocephalous Orthodox Church (nearly a million).

I do know a few Ukrainian Jewish converts to Orthodoxy who let the behavior of the Ukrainians or the czar get in the way.

And if you want to get into collaboration with the Nazis, are we going to go into the Judenrate? And I’d like to include the question of how religious the Einsatzgruppen were, as by that time the Soviets had starved much of the Ukraine to death (the Holodomor), broke the Ukrainians off the Russian Church and then suppressed and eliminated them (it had no existence officially, no churches, and no clergy by 1930), having a whole generation to raise Soviet men in the Ukraine, and Poland had suppressed the Ukrainian (and other) Orthodox in the territory it had seized between the wars.

 

[buffgbob]

This online book is a polemical work written by Rabbi Isaac of Troki, in the Middle Ages. He was a Karaite Jewish rabbi (Karaites do not believe in the Talmud, only the “Old Testament”.) He gives in this book Chizzuk Emunah, a complete explanation of why Jews do not accept Jesus, and he does it solely with Biblical references: faithstrengthened.org

I was suprised while reading this website how close-minded it was. Take for example where he shows how Christ has not fulfilled the prophets:

At the time of the Messiah the Shechinah (effulgency of divine presence) shall return to Israel as in former days, and the people of Israel increase in prophecy, wisdom, and knowledge, as may be seen by the following quotations from the prophets. (Ezekiel 37:26) “Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will establish and multiply them, and set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.” (Verse 27) “My residence also shall be among them. Yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Verse 28) “And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.” (Ibid 39:29) “Neither will I hide my face any more from them, for I have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.” (Ibid 43:7) “And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever,” etc. (Ibid 48:35) “And the name of the city from that day shall be, ‘The Lord is there’” (Joel 2:27) “And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and there is none else; and my people shall never be ashamed.” (Ibid 3:1), in the English Version 2:28) “And it shall come to pass afterwards, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.” (Ibid 3:17) “So ye shall know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through it any more.” (Ibid 3:21) “For I will avenge their blood that I had not avenged, for the Lord dwelleth in Zion.” (Zechariah 2:14; in the English Version, 2:10) “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for, lo! I come and dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord.” (Isaiah 11:9) “For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.” (Jeremiah 31:34) “And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall know me, from the lowest of them to the highest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.”

This is a proof that Christ was not the Messiah? Strange. Strange since it is exactly the Christian claim that Christ is God. It is exactly the Christian claim that Christ sent His Spirit amongst us. It is precisely the Christian claim that Christ is present in our tabernacles. If one wants to “prove” that an opponent is wrong, one must at least assume their foundation and then show that it is insufficient. Either that, or one must disprove their foundation and then show that without it, it is insufficient. One cannot just merely assume the foundation wrong and then say, “See, they do not meet these requirements.” It is faulty and unreasonable.

Another example of this astounding leap in logical reasoning:

… and many of them show divine reverence to the wafer, or sacramental bread by prostrating themselves before it. These practices they keep up in contradiction to the teachings of Jesus

I mean it’s amazing. If you assume a contradictory position, the of course when you go about trying to “prove” the position as wrong you will be satisfied. That’s not how reasonable thinking works; not to a reasonable man. He should have taken note from Augustine. When disproving the Manichaeans, Augustine assumes their position to show them to be wrong. It is so persuasive, they convert. This other document is so close-minded that it could never persuade someone who didn’t already agree with what he was saying. It is only there for indoctrination of Orthodox Jews in remaining Orthodox. Only an unscrupulous thinker would be fooled.

I believe in A which contradicts B. Therefore, B is wrong.

 

[Kaninchen]

Interesting. How do you think Yiddish (a form of German) speakers ended up in Russia?

btw, when were the Jews let back in Italy. I know that they were there in the Medieval Period: the legend of “St.” Simon of Trent shows that, but I understand they were expelled after that.

Yes. I hope you enjoy the minarets going up in pre-Muslim Eurabia.

Postmodern architecture: leads to Socialist housing projects. Oy!

You do seem rather excitable.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I believe the Roman Catholic church to be the original church (notice I did not say “true”, since, as a Jew, I do not hold any church to be “true”, at least not for me.)

You’re right. Your opinoin on this matter, in the debate of the True Church, carries no weight (a point I made once to an atheist Jewish friend of mine, when she argued for the ordination of women among the Episcopalians).

I certainly know its not the Protestant churches (as much I have dear Protestant friends I know and love)…historically, their churches came along way too late to make any claim to originality.

An historical argument you can make. After all, history doesn’t depend on confession.

And I know it is not the numerous Eastern Orthodox churches…one aspect of the original church would be its catholicity (universality)…the Orthodox churches are hopelessly divided along ethnic lines, and even some of those various ethnicities have issues with each other…so, nope, no original church there either, IMO (besides which, they also broke away over the issue of the Filioque in the Creed, circa 1054).

And what was the ORIGINAL wording of the Creed?

You’ve veered out of history and now made an appeal to dogma, which you have no authority to make: besides it contradicts your assertion, that Jesus didn’t intend to send anyone to the Gentiles, which you stated as proof of the NT and Church being baselesss when it came to claims on the OT. Either Jesus believed in universality of His Church or He didn’t.

I’ve been to Orthodox Churches of all ethnic/jurisdictions on three Continents (four if Europe counts as separate). Your caricature (common enough on these fora) is highly exagerated.

Does the existence of two rabbinates, Aschkenazi and Sephardi, bring Judaism down? (Golda Meir famously quipped that only those Jews who spoke Yiddish were really Jews, leading to Sephardim, many who had lived in the Holy Land and around for generations, picketing her house “Golda Teach us Yiddish”). Judges 20-1 would seem to indicate that the missing 10 tribes present Judaism (i.e. the sole tribe Judah) with a problem. Does your total separation from the Samaritans, accoring to your logic, not undermine your claim?

But even the original church has its issues…in researching the history of the RCC, I find many times, even before the Reformation, when the church had to deal with offshoot groups, etc The Panarion of St Epiphanius details many “heretical” sects in existence in the earlier days of the church

.

And?

I agree with you…what is oldest is best, because it has stood the test of time. For a Christian, that would mean the RCC. For me, as a Jew, it means Judaism in as original a form as possible. Which is why the Karaites can look mighty appealing at times!

Only problem, the Karaites don’t appear until after the rise of Islam. Like Protestants, their mythology runs afoul of history.

Christiantiy in the Old Covenant in as original a form as possible. How else is Abraham the father of many nations?

Btw, the pope of Rome’s oldest title is pontifex maximus: it is the office of the pagan Roman state religion. In fact it is the oldest institution in Europe. So has state religion best, as it has stood the test of time?