Jews, the Talmud, and Jesus

[buffgbob]

Does the existence of two rabbinates, Aschkenazi and Sephardi, bring Judaism down? (Golda Meir famously quipped that only those Jews who spoke Yiddish were really Jews, leading to Sephardim, many who had lived in the Holy Land and around for generations, picketing her house “Golda Teach us Yiddish”). Judges 20-1 would seem to indicate that the missing 10 tribes present Judaism (i.e. the sole tribe Judah) with a problem. Does your total separation from the Samaritans, accoring to your logic, not undermine your claim?

His religion doesn’t claim to be “one” and “catholic” now does it?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

And would Christians do anything differently, if they had an offshoot group, constantly barging into their services, disrupting them, trying to convert their members?

Closest thing we have to that were the Old Ritualists, who just picked up and left (and went underground when the persecutions started). Since so much of Orthodoxy takes precedenct over Orthopraxy (which I’ve been told, in Judaism practice trumps belief), the situation doesn’t come up. One eschews those not in line with beliefs.

JW and Mormons go door to door and don’t bother our Churches.

As for “the Divine Liturgy spread, not constrained by ethnocentrism, throughout the world”…how can you honestly say that as an Orthodox Christian?

For one, I’ve seen and experienced it, as I said, on several continents, in several countries, in several languages. From Japanese and Chinese to Aleut and Eskimo (and Hebrew in Jerusalem. The Hebrew Orthodox may be the majority of the patriarchate now).

Btw, I’m a big supporter of the Western RIte Orthodox, in this country (US), British Isles, and Norway (the Greek archbishop bothched that one. The Nordic Catholic Church had tried to enter the Chruch that way). The Western Rites, including Rome’s, all have the Liturgy of the Word, the remnant of the synagog service. The Great canon is the Sacrifice. where’s the service of sacrifice now in Judaism?

Are you even aware of how hopelessly divided your church is ALONG ETHNIC LINES? I know Orthodox Christians who badmouth other Orthodox Christians, simply because they worship in an ethnically different Orthodox church! I know one who actually ridicules the way Arab Orthodox pray, as opposed to the way her (Russian) Orthodox church does.

In the movie, the Man in the Glass Booth, there is line where the Jewish butler is trying to prove that the man on trial is actually Jewish “He has to be. No one is that Anti-Semitic and isn’t.” The movie, you recall, opens with the Man talks about the various ranks of Jews and how they, how shall I say, release bodily functions on the lower ranking ones. I’ve witnessed such conversations in real life (because of my ancestry, there are attempts to draw me into them, but I maintain I don’t have a dog in such fights).

A little secret. People can be critical of their nearest and dearest. As we say in Egypt “I curse my children, and hate those who say amen.”

Arb. Ireland became the Father of American Orthodoxy when he refused to accept the Ruthenian priest sent by Rome, St. Alexis Toth. The rest is history, altough supposedly Ireland and St. Alexis were both under the same pontiff in Rome.

And being in Chicago, I know how the Poles mock the Italians for their piety, who mock the Spanish for their practices, etc. and all this within the Latin rite (which btw suppressed the other rites in Latin: Celtic, Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Gallic, etc.).

Hopeless? Not quite.

Btw, I am Arab Orthodox, and it is openly admited among us the admiration for the Russian piety.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You do seem rather excitable.

Oh? Ich bin auch ein Berliner, und Preussisch, but the Mediterreanean side is in the ascendent. I can only take your consideration of such tame comments as “excitable” as Teutonic understatement.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

His religion doesn’t claim to be “one” and “catholic” now does it?

Her (I think that is correct) religion claims to be “one.” “Catholic,” that’s debatable. The Talmud states that violation of the Noachide laws is punisheable by death (Sanhedrin 57a), but the regulation of the Noachide laws is in the hands of the rabbis (the modern B’nei Noach demonstrates that). Maimonides states that to observe the Laws of Noah is not enough, one has to belief that they were divinely instituted by the Torah (i.e. Judaism). Btw, one of those violation of those laws is belief in the Trinity or Christ’s divinity. Judaism has more to say than the Sabbes Goy.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Said Jewish person has not presented this priority as a preference, but some self-evident neutral fact, which it is not.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I wasn’t aware that God’s preference for Kaninchen, Sepharad, you or anyone was the object of discussion.

God can read hearts but we cannot, therefore by their fruits we know them.

And yes, He does have a prefered interpretation of Scripture, on that the Apostles and Pharisees were agreed.

As for names, I like to know who and what I am dealing with. If I look at a Book, and the Title says Tanakh or Old Testament, that is what I expect in it. They are not the same. Kaninchen and Sepharad seem to be of the same bent, and I would not expect anything else. Similarly, I woud expect names reflect what is “in the heart.”

 

[Sepharad]

I find this difficult to believe. I’ve read his autobiography - which is still being published. If what you are saying is true, that would be all over the news. If you like, I’d be happy to send you a copy of the book.

Blessings,

Brian

I’ve read his book.

Anyway, If you don’t believe me, just research it. try Googling “Leopold Cohn+Jasovics+legal trouble” or some such formulation.

When I Googled him, mostly all the websites discussing him are “messianic” sites or other Christian sites, but I did find this one which seems to present an objective view. Its about famous people who were adopted:

famous.adoption.com/famous/cohn-leopold.html

 

[Robbinson]

I’ve read his book.

Anyway, If you don’t believe me, just research it. try Googling “Leopold Cohn+Jasovics+legal trouble” or some such formulation.

When I Googled him, mostly all the websites discussing him are “messianic” sites or other Christian sites, but I did find this one which seems to present an objective view. Its about famous people who were adopted:

famous.adoption.com/famous/cohn-leopold.html

Fair enough (meaning, I didn’t know him personally so can only rely on what I’ve read about him and do find it difficult to believe these stories given the continued publication of his autobiography). I think I’ve lost track of the original point you were making (my apologies). In any event, I am a Jew who believes in Christ as the Messiah (and I’m the real deal - I promise, no fraud). There are thousands who join me. An interesting thing to ponder, through history, the Jewish people have prednominately been in rebellion (that is the story told in the Hebrew scriptures) and throughout the scriptures, we are told that there has been only a small faithful remnant. The fact that the majority of Jews deny Jesus as the Messiah, evaluated in that context, is at least something to think about.

The other thing to think about, is as scripture tells us that God would cause the Jewish people to have eyes but not see, and ears but not hear, what do you think that might mean? (and if the Jews were to reject the Messiah and be blind, what would you expect Jews to say of Jesus today?). Its a very interesting question (of course terribly important) but irrespective of where you or I come out on the issue, certainly a question worth thinking about.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Sepharad]

Fair enough (meaning, I didn’t know him personally so can only rely on what I’ve read about him and do find it difficult to believe these stories given the continued publication of his autobiography). I think I’ve lost track of the original point you were making (my apologies). In any event, I am a Jew who believes in Christ as the Messiah (and I’m the real deal - I promise, no fraud). There are thousands who join me. An interesting thing to ponder, through history, the Jewish people have prednominately been in rebellion (that is the story told in the Hebrew scriptures) and throughout the scriptures, we are told that there has been only a small faithful remnant. The fact that the majority of Jews deny Jesus as the Messiah, evaluated in that context, is at least something to think about.

The other thing to think about, is as scripture tells us that God would cause the Jewish people to have eyes but not see, and ears but not hear, what do you think that might mean? (and if the Jews were to reject the Messiah and be blind, what would you expect Jews to say of Jesus today?). Its a very interesting question (of course terribly important) but irrespective of where you or I come out on the issue, certainly a question worth thinking about.

Blessings,

Brian

I’m very, very familiar with the beliefs of former Jews who adopt Christianity (I’ve been an exit counselor and countermissionary for some time now, not sure if you knew that)…but I’m confused.

On some other threads here, you presented yourself as a Protestant.

BTW Jews have rejected a number of false messiahs, Jesus was not the only one. Try looking up the history for Shabtai Zvi for another. God warned us about false messiahs and false prophets, that they would be sent as a test to the Jewish people (see Deut. 13). One proof that someone was a false messiah was if his Jewish followers ended up practicing another religion.

Shabtai Zvi ended up converting to Islam and his followers did too.

From Jesus arose a new (nonJewish religion) called Christianity, and his followers became Christians.

Same thing, different person.

 

[Robbinson]

I’m very, very familiar with the beliefs of former Jews who adopt Christianity (I’ve been an exit counselor and countermissionary for some time now, not sure if you knew that)…but I’m confused.

On some other threads here, you presented yourself as a Protestant.

BTW Jews have rejected a number of false messiahs, Jesus was not the only one. Try looking up the history for Shabtai Zvi for another. God warned us about false messiahs and false prophets, that they would be sent as a test to the Jewish people (see Deut. 13). One proof that someone was a false messiah was if his Jewish followers ended up practicing another religion.

Shabtai Zvi ended up converting to Islam and his followers did too.

From Jesus arose a new (nonJewish religion) called Christianity, and his followers became Christians.

Same thing, different person.

I’m happy to clear up your confusion. I am indeed a Jew (was born of both a Jewish mother and Jewish father (meeting both the scriptural definition/descendant form father, and the rabbinic definition, descendant from mother) and spent the first 40 plus years of my life as a practicing Jew raising my family in the Jewish faith. I came to Christ through the hearing of the gospel and the action of the Holy Spirit (praise to God). I was baptized into a Protestant Church and fellowship and worship in both an Anglican/Epsicopalian congregation (on my own) and in a pentacostal AOG congregation (with my wife and children who prefer that style of worship). I’m not a label person - but I certainly consider myself a Christian (and currently a Protestant as I am not part of the Catholic Church), but am certainly still a Jew (though you and i have exchanged some emails on that latter subject ).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I’m very, very familiar with the beliefs of former Jews who adopt Christianity (I’ve been an exit counselor and countermissionary for some time now, not sure if you knew that)…but I’m confused.

On some other threads here, you presented yourself as a Protestant.

BTW Jews have rejected a number of false messiahs, Jesus was not the only one. Try looking up the history for Shabtai Zvi for another. God warned us about false messiahs and false prophets, that they would be sent as a test to the Jewish people (see Deut. 13). One proof that someone was a false messiah was if his Jewish followers ended up practicing another religion.

Shabtai Zvi ended up converting to Islam and his followers did too.

From Jesus arose a new (nonJewish religion) called Christianity, and his followers became Christians.

Non-Jewish, yes.

Non-Hebrew/Israelite, no.

Same thing, different person.

What do you do with Bar Kochba, the messiah of your great Akiba, upon whom all your rabbinate rests? (hence why the Talmud calls him “Head of the Sages”)

 

[Sepharad]

Non-Jewish, yes.

Non-Hebrew/Israelite, no.

What do you do with Bar Kochba, the messiah of your great Akiba, upon whom all your rabbinate rests? (hence why the Talmud calls him “Head of the Sages”)

Rabbi Akiba was also wrong. It just goes to show that even rabbis, learned sages, can be wrong…so it does not shock me in the least that far less Jewishly educated Jews can also fall for a false messiah.

This is why it is so important to use the test given in Deut. 13 to tell if someone is a true messenger of God.

And as for the true messiah, the one way to know if someone is the right man or not is, if he fulfills ALL of the prophecies, esp. the prophecy that the advent of the true messiah will usher in an age of universal peace, along the lines of Isaiah 11:6-9.

Bar Kochba did not usher in an era of universal peace; neither did Jesus; neither did Shabtai Zvi.

 

[inJESUS]

.

Bar Kochba did not usher in an era of universal peace; neither did Jesus; neither did Shabtai Zvi.

neither will anyone, according to your interpretation , unless he is God Himself who will change all people’s hearts and thoughts, specifically the Muslims sitting on your temple with no intention whatsoever to leave

 

[Angelos]

And as for the true messiah, the one way to know if someone is the right man or not is, if he fulfills ALL of the prophecies, esp. the prophecy that the advent of the true messiah will usher in an age of universal peace, along the lines of Isaiah 11:6-9.

Bar Kochba did not usher in an era of universal peace; neither did Jesus; neither did Shabtai Zvi.

According to your expectations, the “true” Messiah will never come because Isaiah says that the rod out of the root of Jesse will establish justice Himself by punishing the wicked:

Isaiah 11:1-4
And there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a flower shall rise up out of his root.
And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him: the spirit of wisdom, and of understanding, the spirit of counsel, and of fortitude, the spirit of knowledge, and of godliness.
And he shall be filled with the spirit of the fear of the Lord, He shall not judge according to the sight of the eyes, nor reprove according to the hearing of the ears.
But he shall judge the poor with justice, and shall reprove with equity the meek of the earth: and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.

How is it possible to have universal peace without justice and the punishment of the wicked? Why the need for the Messiah if everything is perfect and there is universal peace?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Rabbi Akiba was also wrong. It just goes to show that even rabbis, learned sages, can be wrong…so it does not shock me in the least that far less Jewishly educated Jews can also fall for a false messiah.

You mean like St. Paul, disciple of Gemaliel (Acts 22:3)?

Of course, you are right.

This is why it is so important to use the test given in Deut. 13 to tell if someone is a true messenger of God.

John 8:52-59, 10:25-42, Psalm 82:6, Mattew 22:44, Psalm 110:1. Hebrews 1:8, Psalm 45:6-7. (Masoretic numbering, btw).

Test passed.

And as for the true messiah, the one way to know if someone is the right man or not is, if he fulfills ALL of the prophecies, esp. the prophecy that the advent of the true messiah will usher in an age of universal peace, along the lines of Isaiah 11:6-9.

Romans 8:19-39.

All prophecies not yet fulfilled with be so in Act II, called Revelation.

Bar Kochba did not usher in an era of universal peace; neither did Jesus; neither did Shabtai Zvi.

I’m sorry. I wasn’t aware you had a semicha.

Akiba had held that the Messiah’s reign would only be 40 years, like David and Solomon.(Midr. Teh. xc. 15). Your authority to claim otherwise?

Yes He did. It’s called the Church triumphant.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

According to your expectations, the “true” Messiah will never come because Isaiah says that the rod out of the root of Jesse will establish justice Himself by punishing the wicked:

Isaiah 11:1-4
And there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a flower shall rise up out of his root.
And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him: the spirit of wisdom, and of understanding, the spirit of counsel, and of fortitude, the spirit of knowledge, and of godliness.
And he shall be filled with the spirit of the fear of the Lord, He shall not judge according to the sight of the eyes, nor reprove according to the hearing of the ears.
But he shall judge the poor with justice, and shall reprove with equity the meek of the earth: and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.

How is it possible to have universal peace without justice and the punishment of the wicked? Why the need for the Messiah if everything is perfect and there is universal peace?

I’ve seen something like that. Rev. 1:16, 12, 16.

Striking the earth and slaying the wicked. That doesn’t sound very peaceful, though it is universal. (that’s a tongue, not a sword btw).

 

[Sepharad]

It is true that the true Messiah will first slay the wicked…but after that there will be universal peace.

Either way, Jesus did not do that…and I refuse to accept that this will happen with ‘a second coming’…Christians like to sweep everything unfulfilled under the rug of a “second coming”, but it won’t fly for knowledgeable Jews, sorry.

Isa, we’ll just have to agree to disagree…Christians interpret our Scriptures differently than we do…we to whom it was given.

 

[Robbinson]

Isa, we’ll just have to agree to disagree…Christians interpret our Scriptures differently than we do…we to whom it was given.

I’m sorry, but with respect Sepharad, I have to disagree with this statement. “we to whom it was given” - Were not Jesus and his 12 apostles Jews to whom the scripture was given and they believe in this “Christian” interpretation of those scriptures, as do I and many other “jews”.

Sadly - its the thought that Orthodox Judaism has a monoply or especially empowered ability to interpret the scriptures which has blinded many to the truth, IMO.

I"m happy to agree to disagree, respectfully, on any scriptural interpretation with you - but statements like the one quoted above are not constructive and it would be sad if you really believed that.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Sepharad]

I’m sorry, but with respect Sepharad, I have to disagree with this statement. “we to whom it was given” - Were not Jesus and his 12 apostles Jews to whom the scripture was given and they believe in this “Christian” interpretation of those scriptures, as do I and many other “jews”.

Sadly - its the thought that Orthodox Judaism has a monoply or especially empowered ability to interpret the scriptures which has blinded many to the truth, IMO.

I"m happy to agree to disagree, respectfully, on any scriptural interpretation with you - but statements like the one quoted above are not constructive and it would be sad if you really believed that.

Blessings,

Brian

The Tanakh was given to the Jewish people…and to this day, the overwhelming majority of the Jewish people…whether they are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or even the “heretical” Jewish sects like the Karaites and Samaritans, ALL reject the possibilility of Jesus being the messiah.

Don’t you find it informative that of all the Jewish or pseudo-Jewish sects, which normally differ with each other greatly…they are all united on ONE issue: rejection of Jesus as messiah?

That should tell you something.

Oh, and look what I found for Isa: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksei_%28former_Russian_archpriest%29

I found his story very interesting!

 

[Isa_Almisry]

It is true that the true Messiah will first slay the wicked…but after that there will be universal peace.

Either way, Jesus did not do that…and I refuse to accept that this will happen with ‘a second coming’

your choice.

…Christians like to sweep everything unfulfilled under the rug of a “second coming”, but it won’t fly for knowledgeable Jews, sorry.

since you have no Temple, no semicha, by what authority do you call what you call “knowledge?” After all, Christ is teaching like a person who had authority, and not like your scribes, the ones writting the Talmud (Mat. 7:29, Mark 1:22, Luke 4:32)

Romans 9:6, 11:1-5.

Isa, we’ll just have to agree to disagree…Christians interpret our Scriptures differently than we do…we to whom it was given.

ah… you almost had an agreement.

Our? We? Who is us?

I can say what St Paul says in Romans 11:1 and II Corinthians 11:22, so can you explain your claim to priority over me, let alone the Early Church, the Lord and his Apostles?

As Our Lord says in John 5:46 Moses wrote of Him, so it was given to us who believe, the Hebrew first, and then the Gentile.