Jews who became Catholics: some commonalities

  • Thread starter Thread starter HashemEchad
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
H

HashemEchad

Guest
I’ve been active in exit counseling work for about 30 years, and because of this, over the past 30 years I’ve had to familiarize myself not only with other religions, but also their attempts at converting Jews.

I was recently reading over a website aimed at getting Jews to become Catholics, and the few stories they have there of Jews who converted are the same ones (with maybe 2 exceptions) I first read in the late 1970s, when I began exit counseling. This lead me to think the RCC has not been very successful with getting Jews to leave their faith and convert out.

But I have noticed something also: in more than a few cases, when a Jew converts, their sibling will convert also (I know of one case personally where this also happened, although one of the sisters later returned to Judaism.)

I have also noticed that in many cases, such Jews often died a premature death. I’m not sure what that means, if anything, but I can think of several possibilities.

Has anyone else noticed these or other similarities?
 
dosdog said:
Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger, the Archbishop of Paris
timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article2223596.ece
Click to expand...
I don’t know how old he was, but I did say that often, they seemed to die premature or unusual deaths (not always).

To give just one example, I read a story of a Jewish woman who became a nun, and a mere 3 months after she became one, she was diagnosed with a really unusual form of brain cancer, and died a horribly painful death.

There were some others too…I wonder if maybe they knew they were dying, and that provoked them to seek out other religions for some reason?
 
dosdog said:
Honey from the Rock
Sixteen Jews Find the Sweetness of Christ
ignatius.com/ViewProduct.aspx?SID=1&Product_ID=3059&AFID=12&
Click to expand...
I think that was on a website I was looking at. One thing also that bothered me, as an Orthodox Jew, about the “testimony” of one of the men in there…

he claimed he was raised as a “strict Orthodox Jew”, but then goes on to say he attended “Hebrew school five days a week for 5 years, from 3 PM to 6 PM, and sometimes on Sundays”.

Unh, uh. TRULY Orthodox Jews send their children FULLTIME to DAY SCHOOLS, or yeshivas. A day school is like parochial school is for Catholics.

From what that guy described, his family were either secular or non-Orthodox Jews, because those are the only ones who send their kids to what is called “afternoon Hebrew school” (5 days a week, AFTER public school is over for the day.) They send their kids to public school during the day, and THEN send them to the afternoon “Hebrew school”.

Its amusing to me how people like that think they will get away with claiming to have been “Orthodox”, but those of us who truly are, know how to see the giveaway clues. 🙂
 
HashemEchad said:
I’ve been active in exit counseling work for about 30 years, and because of this, over the past 30 years I’ve had to familiarize myself not only with other religions, but also their attempts at converting Jews.

I was recently reading over a website aimed at getting Jews to become Catholics, and the few stories they have there of Jews who converted are the same ones (with maybe 2 exceptions) I first read in the late 1970s, when I began exit counseling. This lead me to think the RCC has not been very successful with getting Jews to leave their faith and convert out.

But I have noticed something also: in more than a few cases, when a Jew converts, their sibling will convert also (I know of one case personally where this also happened, although one of the sisters later returned to Judaism.)

I have also noticed that in many cases, such Jews often died a premature death. I’m not sure what that means, if anything, but I can think of several possibilities.

Has anyone else noticed these or other similarities?
Click to expand...
Dear brother,

You do have an interesting job of exit interview of someone previously Jews, but decided to go for another religion. As far as I know, Judaism is some sort of “inherited” religion passed from the parents to the children. So, if I was born from as a Jew, I am automatically belong to Judaism. Also, it means that Judaism is a religion followed from birth and should be as strong as family tradition. Am I correct?

Can you share more of your experience to us? I am not talking about comparison of Judaism vs other religions not just Catholicism. I am more interested in your personal experience handling such interviews. Such as : Do you have any experience of yourself being verbally abused? Do you hear yourself that the exiting Jews condemn Judaism infront of you? How do you handle that? Please do not think that I am trying to find a position to offense you. I just want to hear your psychological experience of a man handling a tough job such as yours. That will be a valuable (name removed by moderator)ut for us on controlling emotional reaction, brother.
 
HashemEchad said:
I’ve been active in exit counseling work for about 30 years, and because of this, over the past 30 years I’ve had to familiarize myself not only with other religions, but also their attempts at converting Jews.

I was recently reading over a website aimed at getting Jews to become Catholics, and the few stories they have there of Jews who converted are the same ones (with maybe 2 exceptions) I first read in the late 1970s, when I began exit counseling. This lead me to think the RCC has not been very successful with getting Jews to leave their faith and convert out.

But I have noticed something also: in more than a few cases, when a Jew converts, their sibling will convert also (I know of one case personally where this also happened, although one of the sisters later returned to Judaism.)

I have also noticed that in many cases, such Jews often died a premature death. I’m not sure what that means, if anything, but I can think of several possibilities.

Has anyone else noticed these or other similarities?
Click to expand...
catholic.com/seminars/moss.asp

Rosalind Moss
Catholic Answers Apologist
 
HashemEchad said:
I think that was on a website I was looking at. One thing also that bothered me, as an Orthodox Jew, about the “testimony” of one of the men in there…

he claimed he was raised as a “strict Orthodox Jew”, but then goes on to say he attended “Hebrew school five days a week for 5 years, from 3 PM to 6 PM, and sometimes on Sundays”.

Unh, uh. TRULY Orthodox Jews send their children FULLTIME to DAY SCHOOLS, or yeshivas. A day school is like parochial school is for Catholics.

From what that guy described, his family were either secular or non-Orthodox Jews, because those are the only ones who send their kids to what is called “afternoon Hebrew school” (5 days a week, AFTER public school is over for the day.) They send their kids to public school during the day, and THEN send them to the afternoon “Hebrew school”.

Its amusing to me how people like that think they will get away with claiming to have been “Orthodox”, but those of us who truly are, know how to see the giveaway clues. 🙂
Click to expand...
I couldn’t find the testimony you reference because the website is to a publisher’s site for the book. But I can’t see how you can conclude that someone who went to Hebrew school for 3 hours a day, 5 days a week, was not raised in an orthodox household. And certainly, attending Hebrew school for 3 hours a day 5 days a week is not a sign that one s a secular Jew!
 
**he claimed he was raised as a “strict Orthodox Jew”, but then goes on to say he attended “Hebrew school five days a week for 5 years, from 3 PM to 6 PM, and sometimes on Sundays”.

Unh, uh. TRULY Orthodox Jews send their children FULLTIME to DAY SCHOOLS, or yeshivas. A day school is like parochial school is for Catholics.**

**It’s possible that there wasn’t a full-time Orthodox Jewish dayschool in the area, and his parents were taking advantage of the best that was available. Of course, how would I know for sure?

I’ve gathered from Herman Wouk’s book THIS IS MY GOD that Orthodox Judaism is as varigated as Orthodox Christianity.**
 
grew up in heavily Jewish area, lived 1st 20 yrs of married life in same, where we were actually a minority, in neighborhoods where Orthodox and conservative dominated, and there were many synagogues and almost everyone walked to services. not every synagogue had a school or even after-school programs. they all had preparation for bar-mitzvah, but usually Hebrew school and day schools were “regionalized” tho the regions were not large geographically. in the 50s 60s most families sent kids to day school, and many to Hebrew school as well esp for bar mitzvah. by the 80s, as with parochial schools in the same towns, most day schools had closed or consolidated, and only a few, based on stricter Orthodox lines, remained, and those covering wide region. (SIL teaches in one, tho she is non-religious gentile). there are waiting lists and high tuitions, just like for Catholic schools

Like Catholic families with CCD, those parents who care still send their kids to Hebrew school, some do so only for bar Mitzvah (just as some “good” Catholics send their kids only for sacramental prep), but since the focus is on learning Hebrew to read and hear the Word of God, at least that is an option.

while in my youth every good Catholic family sent their kids to parochial schools, now only minority of parents do this, or even have access to them. so I don’t think a general statement about Orthodoxy vis a vis children’s schooling is always accurate.
 
Valke2 said:
I couldn’t find the testimony you reference because the website is to a publisher’s site for the book. But I can’t see how you can conclude that someone who went to Hebrew school for 3 hours a day, 5 days a week, was not raised in an orthodox household. And certainly, attending Hebrew school for 3 hours a day 5 days a week is not a sign that one s a secular Jew!
Click to expand...
What I meant was that truly Orthodox Jews send their children to fulltime Orthodox Jewish day schools, and hence there would be no need for an afternoon Hebrew school too.

The only Jews I’ve ever known who sent their kids to afternoon Hebrew schools (or Hebrew school on Sundays) were either Conservative or Reform Jews (which takes place after regular public school lets out)…hence my comment about the Jewish fellow who claimed to have been raised “strictly Orthodox”.

And actually, I do know secular Jews who send their kids to afternoon Hebrew schools called folkshuls (where they learn Jewish culture but not the Jewish religion.)
 
The reason why I make an issue of former Jews claiming to have been raised “strictly Orthodox” is because they often like to claim that because they feel it gives more weight to their “testimony”.

I’ve uncovered in the past, former Jews who made this claim, only to learn upon interviewing them that a great grandparent had been Orthodox in Russia, and they somehow feel that enables them to claim the same.

Or, people whose family attended an Orthodox synagogue on holidays, only because it was the only kind in the area, and they feel that enables them to identify themselves as “Orthodox”. Those of us who work in exit counseling and countermissionary work run into this kind of thing all the time, so its a pet peeve of mine.

I grew up in a very Orthodox community, and was raised in an Orthodox family, I know what the true definition of it is.
 
I’m sure you have had a lot of experience in the orthodox community. However, to state that someone is not truly orthodox because they went to hebrew school instead of a jewish day school is a bit of a leap. How do we explain, for example, the fact that orhtodox shuls have, more often than not, hebrew schools for kids who don’t go to jewish day schools?
 
“Exit counseling” is a curious-sounding thing. I take it you counsel with people who are converting from Judaism to something else. How do you get them to go talk to you in the first place?
 
Ridgerunner said:
“Exit counseling” is a curious-sounding thing. I take it you counsel with people who are converting from Judaism to something else. How do you get them to go talk to you in the first place?
Click to expand...
Exit counseling is what some of us volunteer to do with those who were originally Jewish, converted to another faith, and now want to return to Judaism. While that is our primary work, we also sometimes find ourselves also working with nonJews wanting to convert to Judaism.

In the 30 years I’ve been doing this (first as a volunteer for the National Jewish Hospitality Committee, and later, with other Jewish groups), I’ve had many opportunities to meet many Jews from all backgrounds, who for one reason or another, at one time chose to join another religion. Because of that, I’ve gotten to see a lot of scenarios, and have developed a lot of questions.

I’ve never come across a Jew who became a “messianic jew” out of hatred for his Jewishness, or to run away from something in Judaism or his family. Most often they join the MJs because they are seeking a personal spiritual experience that they did not find in standard Judaism (which is perhaps why the Jewish Renewal Movement is growing by leaps and bounds…it gives Jews a way to develop a spiritual relationship with God, and delve into Jewish mysticism, without needing to leave Judaism.)

But when it comes to the few Jewish Catholics and Jewish Eastern Orthodox I have met, it seems that often, they have a disregard for their Jewish heritage, and many of them, after talking to them, seem to be wanting to hide from something, or run away from their family. I remember a few cases where Jews became Catholics as a way of “rewarding” Catholics who had sheltered them from the Nazis; but there were more who became Catholics as a way of escaping a Jewish family or past that was less than pleasant. This is what seems to have happened to the parents of the author, Stephen Dubner (“Turbulent Souls”), who were trying to hide the fact that they were related to Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, and so they not only converted but changed their names as well.

I met one Jew who became Russian Orthodox as a slap at his Russian Jewish family that had disinherited him (I forget why they did)…his grandfather had come to the USA to escape Russian Orthodox Cossacks who used to mauraud and engage in pogroms (riots against the Jewish community in Russia)…I guess he felt what better church to join to upset his family?

I just don’t understand why the Jews with no such axe to grind join the MJs, while the Jews that do have an axe to grind (or a Jewish family to run away from tend to gravitate toward the RCs and EOs, and sometimes, “regular” (non-mj) Protestant churches.

I’m not a psychologist, so I can’t figure this one out. I strill cannot shake the mental image from about 25 years ago, when I met a young woman who had converted from a Jewish background to Catholicism…her hatred for her Jewishness was so evident, it scared me. I didn’t at first realize she held such hatred, and so I thought that even though she converted, she was still proud of her Jewish heritage. How wrong I was! She kept cutting me off with, “Look, would I have become a Catholic if I still wanted to even think about all that Jewish garbage?” 😦
 
HashemEchad said:
I’m not a psychologist, so I can’t figure this one out. I strill cannot shake the mental image from about 25 years ago, when I met a young woman who had converted from a Jewish background to Catholicism…her hatred for her Jewishness was so evident, it scared me. I didn’t at first realize she held such hatred, and so I thought that even though she converted, she was still proud of her Jewish heritage. How wrong I was! She kept cutting me off with, “Look, would I have become a Catholic if I still wanted to even think about all that Jewish garbage?” 😦
Click to expand...
Possibly she had a problem with your problem, and wanted to end the conversation. Not being a psychologist, as you say, it might be just a bit over the edge to categorize converts from Judaism in the way you do. Doubtless the reasons anyone converts from one religion to another (including to Judaism) are complex.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Possibly she had a problem with your problem, and wanted to end the conversation. Not being a psychologist, as you say, it might be just a bit over the edge to categorize converts from Judaism in the way you do. Doubtless the reasons anyone converts from one religion to another (including to Judaism) are complex.
Click to expand...
No, I doubt that’s what it was…I met her at a social event, and when I heard her name, I asked, “Oh, are you also Jewish?” Her face registered a look of disgust when I asked that (which puzzled me), and then she said, “I’m NOT Jewish, I am a Catholic!” Again, I was confused, so she explained (with a hushed voice) that she had been born Jewishm but became Catholic.

I was curious as to what made her convert out, but she seemed to not want to make much mention of her Jewish heritage, even though she spoke freely of her new status as a Catholic.

The whole thing just left a very funny taste in my mouth, and I have met other Jewish converts to Catholicism (and Eastern Orthodoxy) who acted similarly.

For some reason, Jews I’ve met who became “messianic” did not behave like this, and often seemed proud of their Jewishness (unless they act like that because they feel it helps them convert other Jews.)
 
HashemEchad said:
No, I doubt that’s what it was…I met her at a social event, and when I heard her name, I asked, “Oh, are you also Jewish?” Her face registered a look of disgust when I asked that (which puzzled me), and then she said, “I’m NOT Jewish, I am a Catholic!” Again, I was confused, so she explained (with a hushed voice) that she had been born Jewishm but became Catholic.

I was curious as to what made her convert out, but she seemed to not want to make much mention of her Jewish heritage, even though she spoke freely of her new status as a Catholic.

The whole thing just left a very funny taste in my mouth, and I have met other Jewish converts to Catholicism (and Eastern Orthodoxy) who acted similarly.

For some reason, Jews I’ve met who became “messianic” did not behave like this, and often seemed proud of their Jewishness (unless they act like that because they feel it helps them convert other Jews.)
Click to expand...
:rotfl: :rotfl: We “Goyim” learned a long time ago that you never EVER walk up to someone you think might be Jewish because of his/her name or appearance, and ask “Are you Jewish?” You asked for it, and you got it, pardner.
 
Ridgerunner said:
:rotfl: :rotfl: We “Goyim” learned a long time ago that you never EVER walk up to someone you think might be Jewish because of his/her name or appearance, and ask “Are you Jewish?” You asked for it, and you got it, pardner.
Click to expand...
Yes, but we Jews do it all the time with each other.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top