Joesph Smith and the Civil War prophecy

[Martwen]

The text of from D&C 87:1-8 says: “1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the awars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then awar shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, aslaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the aremnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and dchastening ehand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, astand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.”

First from history we can see there was no world war "And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. '. This war did not end the world "And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and dchastening ehand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations; ’
How can a prophet say something false like this? If this is inspired by God who is truth then how can we find something false here?

 

[Jerusha]

Well, it certainly was a horrible and bloody war, but we ought to be thankful it wasn’t THAT bad. Thanks for the quote.

My prayers are that the situation “Out West” will end peacably.

 

[zerinus]

The text of from D&C 87:1-8 says: “1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the awars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then awar shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, aslaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the aremnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and dchastening ehand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, astand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.”

First from history we can see there was no world war "And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. '. This war did not end the world "And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and dchastening ehand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations; ’
How can a prophet say something false like this? If this is inspired by God who is truth then how can we find something false here?

That prophecy extends far into the future. The American civil war was only the beginning of it, which happened as predicted. You turn a blind eye to the fulfilled part, and then twist the unfulfilled part to distort the whole thing?

zerinus

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

That prophecy extends far into the future. The American civil war was only the beginning of it, which happened as predicted. You turn a blind eye to the fulfilled part, and then twist the unfulfilled part to distort the whole thing?

zerinus

Zerinus Shifting Apologetics 101:

Ignore decades of ‘official’ commentary on Jos Smith’s ‘prophecies,’ and stress that (like the Carpenters’ song) “we’ve only just begun” to see the prediction unfold.

Also, ignore follow-up questions which show the idiocy and illogicalness of having “adaptable, morphing prophecies” to fit whatever is happening in the world.

Robert

 

[Martwen]

That prophecy extends far into the future. The American civil war was only the beginning of it, which happened as predicted. You turn a blind eye to the fulfilled part, and then twist the unfulfilled part to distort the whole thing?

zerinus

I guess I don not understand how the southern state can call on Great Britain when they are no longer. Making this prophecy false.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Martwen:

Don’t try to understand zerinus’ points.

Just enjoy them for their illogical and goofy meanderings. He is trolling for ‘converts’ here.

Robert

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

The text of from D&C 87:1-8 says: "1** Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass,**

beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then awar shall be poured out upon all nations.

This is where Zerinus’ nose does a Pinocchio on the “still unfolding prophecy” claim!

Notice, the ‘Lord’ of mormonism is saying that it will “shortly come to pass.”

In zerinuspeak, that means “whenever.”

Notice, “the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States.”

In zerinuspeak, that means “we haven’t seen that happen yet.”

All this fun and goofiness from the zman! And it’s free!!

Robert

 

[Lehl]

All this fun and goofiness from the zman! And it’s free!!

 

[zerinus]

I guess I don not understand how the southern state can call on Great Britain when they are no longer. Making this prophecy false.

The southern states did call upon to Britain (and other European countries) for support in their war against the northern states, as predicted in the prophecy; but they were not very successful in securing it. In fact that was one of their miscalculations. They thought Britain wanted their cotton, therefore would support them. They were right to some extent. There was some sympathy for them in Britain; but no enough to turn into material support. The prophecy says that they will seek such a help; it does not say that they will secure it. Here is an extract from an article in Wikipedia on the subject:

Once the war with the United States began, the best hope for the survival of the Confederacy was military intervention by Britain and France. The United States realized this as well and made it clear that recognition of the Confederacy meant war with the United States—and the cutoff of food shipments into Britain. The Confederates who had believed that “cotton is king”—that is, Britain had to support the Confederacy to obtain cotton—were proven wrong. The war and Union blockade of the South caused economic hardship in textile-producing areas of England such as Lancashire, which depended heavily on cotton exports from the seceding states; however, abolitionist sentiment among English workers ran counter to this economic interest in Confederate victory.

During its existence, the Confederate government sent repeated delegations to Europe; historians do not give them high marks for diplomatic skills. James M. Mason was sent to London as Confederate minister to Queen Victoria, and John Slidell was sent to Paris as minister to Napoleon III. Both were able to obtain private meetings with high British and French officials, but they failed to secure official recognition for the Confederacy. Britain and the United States were at sword’s point during the Trent Affair in late 1861. Mason and Slidell had been illegally seized from a British ship by an American warship. Queen Victoria’s husband, Prince Albert, helped calm the situation, and Lincoln released Mason and Slidell, so the episode was no help to the Confederacy.

Throughout the early years of the war, British foreign secretary Lord Russell and Napoleon III, and, to a lesser extent, British Prime Minister Lord Palmerston, were interested in the idea of recognition of the Confederacy, or at least of offering a mediation. Recognition meant certain war with the United States, loss of American grain, loss of exports to the United States, loss of huge investments in American securities, possible war in Canada and other North American colonies, much higher taxes, many lives lost and a severe threat to the entire British merchant marine, in exchange for the possibility of some cotton. Many party leaders and the public wanted no war with such high costs and meager benefits. Recognition was considered following the Second Battle of Manassas when the British government was preparing to mediate in the conflict, but the Union victory at the Battle of Antietam and Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation, combined with internal opposition, caused the government to back away. Source.

zerinus

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

The text of from D&C 87:1-8 says: “1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the awars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 **For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then awar shall be poured out upon all nations. ** 4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, aslaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the aremnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and dchastening ehand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, astand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.”

This is no prophecy- it’s what almost anyone taking a look at politics in those days would have forseen. It is obvious that the intent of his passage is to predict that the Southern States will call in help for Britain, and anyone who saw the Civil War unfolding would have forseen the same thing. But you know what? It didn’t happen as predicted.

 

[Madaglan]

South Carolina already was on the verge of seceding–back in the 1830’s–during Jackson’s presidency–on the debate with the federal government over the issue of Nullification. If I remember correctly, Washington was about to send troops down to South Carolina but that something happened which temporarily resolved the conflict. Other issues continued to estrange North and South.

The inevitable war between North and South was decades in the making, and it only would have taken someone with some insight to see this.

On the calling the British and other nations: the British and other European nations relied on the South for providing them with cotton for clothing. The South naturally would ask help from those nations with whom it was trading.

One final note: European powers never entered into the fray between North and South, and the war never really extended outside North America. The war ended with Appomattox, in America.

 

[PaulDupre]

All Joseph Smith had to do to get this information was to read the newspapers of his day. They were full of editorials and political commentary about the looming conflict between North and South.

Paul

 

[wademann]

All Joseph Smith had to do to get this information was to read the newspapers of his day. They were full of editorials and political commentary about the looming conflict between North and South.

Paul

Interesting. Do you have a link to any of these many articles?

 

[why_me]

That prophecy extends far into the future. The American civil war was only the beginning of it, which happened as predicted. You turn a blind eye to the fulfilled part, and then twist the unfulfilled part to distort the whole thing?

zerinus

The OP seemed to have forgotten WW I which happened in a generation’s time. The prophecy made a sound prediction about the future of the world.

 

[why_me]

South Carolina already was on the verge of seceding–back in the 1830’s–during Jackson’s presidency–on the debate with the federal government over the issue of Nullification. If I remember correctly, Washington was about to send troops down to South Carolina but that something happened which temporarily resolved the conflict. Other issues continued to estrange North and South.

The inevitable war between North and South was decades in the making, and it only would have taken someone with some insight to see this.

On the calling the British and other nations: the British and other European nations relied on the South for providing them with cotton for clothing. The South naturally would ask help from those nations with whom it was trading.

One final note: European powers never entered into the fray between North and South, and the war never really extended outside North America. The war ended with Appomattox, in America.

Okay, lets see just how well you will do. Make a prophecy about the future as detailed as JS’s was and lets see how it turns out…go ahead…make a prediction.

Now JS’s prophecy was very detailed and it came to pass. That was quite a chance he took to make such a detailed prophecy. It didn’t have to happen.

 

[why_me]

All Joseph Smith had to do to get this information was to read the newspapers of his day. They were full of editorials and political commentary about the looming conflict between North and South.

Paul

Not exactly. JS was murdered in 1844. The civil war happened later. Considering the turmoil the early members and church were in, I don’t think that JS was spending much time catching up on the news. Plus, when was the revelation given? I think that it was earlier than 1844.

But you are also entitled to make such a prediction based on your reading of the news. It can be a detailed prediction.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Not exactly. JS was murdered in 1844. The civil war happened later. Considering the turmoil the early members and church were in, I don’t think that JS was spending much time catching up on the news. Plus, when was the revelation given? I think that it was earlier than 1844.

But you are also entitled to make such a prediction based on your reading of the news. It can be a detailed prediction.

Question for WhyMe or anyone:

When was the Doctrine and Covenants written and by whom was it written and has it been edited since that date? I’m trying to determine when this prophecy was first penned and if it was modified since then.

 

[zerinus]

Question for WhyMe or anyone:

When was the Doctrine and Covenants written and by whom was it written and has it been edited since that date?

The Doctrine and Covenants contains a series of revelations received by Joseph Smith (and his successors) as he organized and built up the Church by divine instruction from scratch. The great majority of the revelations in the D&C were received by Joseph Smith himself, between 1828 and 1844, as he was being instructed by the Lord how to build up the Church. Joseph Smith did edit some of his own revelations before they were published; but not in any significant way afterwards. Minor typographical errors may have been corrected in subsequent editions.

I’m trying to determine when this prophecy was first penned and if it was modified since then.

The prophecy was first received in December 25, 1832, as stated in the section heading. To my knowledge it has not been modified:

SECTION 87

Revelation and prophecy on war, given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, December 25, 1832. HC 1:301–302. This section was received at a time when the brethren were reflecting and reasoning upon African slavery on the American continent and the slavery of the children of men throughout the world.

1–4, War foretold between the Northern States and the Southern States; 5–8, Great calamities shall fall upon all the inhabitants of the earth.

**1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.

8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.**

zerinus

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The Doctrine and Covenants contains a series of revelations received by Joseph Smith (and his successors) as he organized and built up the Church by divine instruction from scratch. The great majority of the revelations in the D&C were received by Joseph Smith himself, between 1828 and 1844, as he was being instructed by the Lord how to build up the Church. Joseph Smith did edit some of his own revelations before they were published; but not in any significant way afterwards. Minor typographical errors may have been corrected in subsequent editions.

The prophecy was first received in December 25, 1832, as stated in the section heading. To my knowledge it has not been modified:

SECTION 87

Revelation and prophecy on war, given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, December 25, 1832. HC 1:301–302. This section was received at a time when the brethren were reflecting and reasoning upon African slavery on the American continent and the slavery of the children of men throughout the world.

1–4, War foretold between the Northern States and the Southern States; 5–8, Great calamities shall fall upon all the inhabitants of the earth.

1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.

8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.
zerinus

Thank you, Zer. That is helpful.

 

[why_me]

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

And here we have WW I.