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why_me
Guest
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved…
Good advice for catholics and for mormons and for anyone else too.
Good advice for catholics and for mormons and for anyone else too.
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why_me
Guest
The American Civil War and the Origins of Modern Warfare: Ideas, Organization, and Field Command (Midland Book) (Paperback)
by Edward Hagerman (Author)
Here is an interesting review of the above book. Just scroll down a little to get the review:
jstor.org/view/00218723/di957313/95p00822/0
It seems that the civil war gave birth to modern warfare as found in WW I as alluded to in verse 2 of the above prophecy.
by Edward Hagerman (Author)
Here is an interesting review of the above book. Just scroll down a little to get the review:
jstor.org/view/00218723/di957313/95p00822/0
It seems that the civil war gave birth to modern warfare as found in WW I as alluded to in verse 2 of the above prophecy.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Robert:
For me it is important to be intellectually honest. Catholics, Orthodox, Evangelicals and other Christians maintain that the Old Testament has predictions of the future that have literally come true. It might be wise, in my opinion, to compare Joseph Smith’s prophecy to one of the Old Testament, such as this prophecy of Ezekiel:
1 In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, ‘Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,’ 3 therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD. 7 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. … 19 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD.(Ezekiel 26) From this prophecy i see two predictions: One was fulfilled during the lifetime of the prophet (verses 7-12), as the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar sacked the ancient city of Tyre on the mainland. However, the prophecy was only partially fulfilled, for after a 13 year siege, Nebuchadnezzar was unable to defeat the other half of the city of Tyre, which was on an island just off the coast of the mainland city.
The second prediction of the prophecy (verses 12-21) was not fulfilled until nearly 200 years passed. This second prediction came true when the Greek general Alexander the Great had his army and slaves dump all of the remains of the mainland city into the Mediterranean Sea to build a causeway out to the island city. He left nothing of the coastal city but a bare rock.
When i study prophecies of the Old Testament, they often have a short-term fulfillment and a long-term one. The effect of the short-term fulfillment is to verify to the people to whom the prophet speaks that God is, indeed, speaking through him. For, who but God knows the future with 100% accuracy 100% of the time? The effect of the long-term prophecy is to prove to those who read it hundreds of years later (like you and me) that God spoke to men, for how, in Ezekiel’s case, could he have known that Alexander the Great would dump all of the ruins of Tyre, even the dirt of the streets, into the sea?
Additional information about this may be read at this National Geographic link: news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070515-alexander-great.html
Comparing Ezekiel 26 to the prophecy of Joseph Smith, i find that to say it is not a prophecy because it is about two wars rather than one is not a strong objection, as the first verse indicates the predictions are about wars, not a single ware. To say that World War I happened too long after the Civil War does not seem to be enough to reject the prophecy, either. For, World War I occurred less than 50 years after the American Civil War, but Alexander’s war against the Tyrians occurred nearly 200 years after the Babylonian’s war against the people of the ancient city of Tyre.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Zer:
Was this the only prophecy Joseph Smith gave us about modern times, or were there others?
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Lehl
Guest
Google is your friend. Joseph Smith had many false prophecies.
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Martwen
Guest
And WWI ended with an “end to all Nations”.2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
And here we have WW I.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Thank you, Lehl. Will you please point one out to me, preferably one that gives the chapter and verse of Doctrine and Covenants, or some other religious book, where i might find it?
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Elric
Guest
Possibly, but they didnt have to defend themselves against other nations like the prophecy states. I also dont believe that WW1 started in North America nor was it a continuation of the ACW (they were not fighting in Europe over the Southern states rights to seccede from the US), in fact it was the US who was being asked to aid in that war and they didnt turn up until later.
It does make for an interesting read, it makes me believe that Mr Smith missed his calling in life, but it is a false prophecy. Even with hindsight it doesnt fit wih past events.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Mart:Quote:
Originally Posted by why me forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
And here we have WW I.
And WWI ended with an “end to all Nations”.
Verse 2 indicates that all the nations of the earth will be involved in a war. I do not see that the verse says it will destroy all nations. Did i miss something?
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Martwen
Guest
For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations. ** 4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full fnd of all nations;**
Note that is says days not years. and yes it does say there will be an end to all nations in verse 6 I made it bold so you could see. But I know you know is passage well!
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why_me
Guest
I think that it depends on the definition of destroy. Likewise for WW II. With the increase in modern warfare ushered in by the civil war, all nations have been touched and destroyed by such warfare. Russia, China, Japan, Europe, Africa, Middle East, Islands of Oceania, near east. other countries of asia, ie, vietman, cambodia, burma etc.
And we are still living in modern times.
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Lehl
Guest
Okay…here’s one:
Doctrine & Covenants 84:1-5
This is a revelation given to Joseph Smith in September, 1832, in Kirtland, Ohio according to the heading. It says the New Jerusalem and its temple are to be built by the Mormons then living in western Missouri, “for verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord.” Yet, neither the temple nor the city have yet been built, but the generation alive in 1832 has died.
scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/84
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Martwen
Guest
Here we go again let’s look at D&C 84:1-5 shall we
1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they bunited their hearts and clifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the arestoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his bprophets, and for the cgathering of his dsaints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3** Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.**
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be creared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.
I would like to know where the LDS temple is in Missouri that Joseph Smith Dedicated by his hand. Yes there is a Mormon temple in Missouri but it is a RLDS temple in Independence (wrong place, wrong generation, and a mormon Apostasy). IF the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints why the Apostasy of their church.
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thomasf
Guest
If Joe Smith did write this prediction, I am somewhat impressed that he managed to get it that close to what happened. Although there was animosity between the north and south and an astute observer might be able to predict a war to end slavery, nailing key parts like Great Britain and South Carolina is somewhat interesting.
However, the fact remains that GB never did engage in fighting, that fighting in the Americas never spread throughout the world based on the Civil War, and WWI can not be linked to the US Civil War at all. To try to do so would be to ignore all of the fighting that took place in Europe in the late 1800s that had nothing to do with US issues but rather issues of European nationality. And with all the constant changes mormons do to their religion, I’d like to see some proof about when this prediction was really written.
However, the fact remains that GB never did engage in fighting, that fighting in the Americas never spread throughout the world based on the Civil War, and WWI can not be linked to the US Civil War at all. To try to do so would be to ignore all of the fighting that took place in Europe in the late 1800s that had nothing to do with US issues but rather issues of European nationality. And with all the constant changes mormons do to their religion, I’d like to see some proof about when this prediction was really written.
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Martwen
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RAR
Guest
Right on Marty! The days of the prophets have passed.
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Lehl
Guest
And another:
Given to Joseph Smith in Kirtland, Ohio on August 2, 1833 and it is about Zion, Jackson County, Missouri according to the heading.
Doctrine & Covenants 97:19
But, two weeks prior to this prophecy, on July 20, 1833, “Zion” began moving from Jackson County. LDS newspaper presses were destroyed by a mob, and leading LDS officials were tarred and feathered and run out of town (D.H.C. Vol.I pp. 390-400). Since Smith was in Kirtland, Ohio, he was unaware of what was happening in Missouri when he said God gave him this “revelation.”
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Jerusha
Guest
Any prophecy of the Civil War was merely based on common sense. Although the process of deriving a prophecy may be somewhat based on intuition, it is basically founded on a careful study of history. Prophecy exists not as a foregone conclusion, but as a warning.
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RAR
Guest
Robert,
I’m hoping this is not the case… I suppose he hasn’t yet fully engaged any of my questions… and he does seem to be a little preoccupied with Socrates.
Zerinus, if you’re anything but genuine, please move on… pride is not something to openly display. And we can’t trust all our faith to the spirit realm. Prayer and the interpretations of its answers must be tempered with sound reason… God afterall gave us the faculty, one of his greatest gifts, and we are meant to exercise it.
RAR
p.s. Soapbox, I leave you.
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Lehl
Guest
Here are a couple of my favorites:
Doctrine and Covenants 114
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Far West, Missouri, April 17, 1838. HC 3: 23.
scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/114
David Patten was shot and killed on October 25, 1838, during the Mormon conflict in Missouri, so he was not even alive the next spring, so he certainly wasn’t going to go on a mission. (D.H.C., Vol III, pp. 170-171)
Doctrine and Covenants 112
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to Thomas B. Marsh, at Kirtland, Ohio, July 23, 1837. HC 2: 499–501. The word of the Lord unto Thomas B. Marsh, concerning the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb. The Prophet records that this revelation was received on the day on which the gospel was first preached in England. Thomas B. Marsh was at this time president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/112
Thomas Marsh became an apostate 15 months later on October 18, 1838 (D.H.C., Vol III, pp. 166-167).
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