John 6 : 62 & 63 What does this mean?

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The Comunion of God and man is in eating the flesh and blood of Jesus.

The Spirit of God was not in anyone but the Son. And the life of the flesh is in the blood. Therefore, we acknowledge by eating this meal, that Jesus of Nazareth is one and the same with the Holy Spirit.
 
What is interesting, is that if Jesus meant to clear up what He meant by “flesh and blood” really meaning “Spirit and Life”, why did the Jews not say, “oh, ok. We see you meant symbolic only.”

But the disciples left AFTER He said this, in verses 62-63.

66* After this** many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.
The questions in my post #35 inthe first paragraph relate to this but have never been answered. :mad:(
 
I don’t believe for a moment that you do not understand what I was saying.
As Jesus is the true Temple, so are we to truly eat his body. It seems to better support the point. Jesus wasn’t using a metaphor when he called his body the Temple, nor was he using a metaphor when he commanded us to eat his flesh.

And again, Christians had been hearing Jesus’ words during the Last Supper during Communion for fifty years before John’s gospel appeared on the scene. They heard weekly “This is my body, take and eat” every Sunday before breaking the bread and eating in worship. It seems odd then for John to write a new gospel in this context with Jesus calling Himself the Bread of Life and speaking of eating his flesh without intending any references to Communion. Any Christian hearing this gospel for the first time when it was new would immediately think of the Eucharist celebration they’d been doing for decades.
 
As Jesus is the true Temple, so are we to truly eat his body. It seems to better support the point. Jesus wasn’t using a metaphor when he called his body the Temple, nor was he using a metaphor when he commanded us to eat his flesh.

And again, Christians had been hearing Jesus’ words during the Last Supper during Communion for fifty years before John’s gospel appeared on the scene. They heard weekly “This is my body, take and eat” every Sunday before breaking the bread and eating in worship. It seems odd then for John to write a new gospel in this context with Jesus calling Himself the Bread of Life and speaking of eating his flesh without intending any references to Communion. Any Christian hearing this gospel for the first time when it was new would immediately think of the Eucharist celebration they’d been doing for decades.
John 2 :18 to 22 is the passage I am referring to. Neither the Jews or his disciples knew he was referring to his body and he never corrected their misunderstanding. The disciples recalled this after his resurrection and then understood. As far as the understanding he left the Jews with, he was using a metaphor for the temple they took 46 years to build.

When I read and reread your second paragraph above to comprehend what it is you think I don’t agree with i get lost. Where did I suggest John was not intending any reference to Communion? Yes, any Chistian hearing this gospel for the first time when it was new would immediately think of the Eucharist celebration they had been doing for decades, but how do you know they had by this time they had invented Transubstantiation? For your information every time my church celebrates Communion we hear the words “this is my body broken for you, take, eat in remembrance of me.”
 
I am not willing to pass judgement on the performance of Jesus. He often spoken in a way that not everybody understood. In these passages alone he was not literal when he said he had meat and when he said he would rebuild the temple in three days. I read that the Jews that left him left because they did not believe that he was the Christ and that he knew who they were from the beginning. Was he sifting them all including the twelve? Is it unrealistic to believe that those that did not believe he was Bread come down from heaven would have left irregardless of how they perceived eating him in terms of literal or figurative?

It is hard for each of us to genuinely look at the other viewpoint especially when we have been taught our own viewpoint all our life. To be able to say one has open mindedly tried to understand the opposing viewpoint is a plus in my mind. Of course, your logical response to that is to ask if I really believe I am doiñg that. My answer is yes and I wouldn’t be on caf if I was not. Some will say I should read the Catachesim instead of caf but I can’t afford a lawyer to interpret it .:o Peace.
I don’t think it is unrealistic to believe that those who doubted who he was may have left Jesus and picked that time to do so. It very well may be they never really understood the sacrifice of following Him. I can see it from both side as a Catholic converted from Protestantism. I had never been introduced to the concept of Real Presence until I decided to enter the Catholic Church. It was a struggle for me at first, I had to put some time into learning the why of it before I could believe it. It was a hard teaching for me. But I got there.

I’m not a biblical scholar or a scholar of biblical languages, so I can’t explain it other than to say when it happens, when you “see” it, you know it is true.
 
I think everything that symbolism offers, Transubstantiation contains. But Transubstantiation is a deeper call to what “One Body” upholds. The “One Body” that “Protestantism” offers, is a common Baptism and “most” of the Scriptures (;)). Beyond that, there is substantial discord in Teaching.
 
John 2 :18 to 22 is the passage I am referring to. Neither the Jews or his disciples knew he was referring to his body and he never corrected their misunderstanding. The disciples recalled this after his resurrection and then understood. As far as the understanding he left the Jews with, he was using a metaphor for the temple they took 46 years to build.
The Jew’s understood him as literally meaning the stone Temple on Mount Zion. Jesus literally meant the true Temple of His body, the place where God’s earthly presence dwells. I don’t think you’re going the word metaphor correctly in this case. Anyway, I see your point as further supporting the real presence. Jesus spoke in a way regarding the Temple that wasn’t clarified then and wasn’t understood until after the Resurrection. Likewise, Jesus offered no correction or explanation to his Apostles by what he meant in regards to eating His flesh. This also wasn’t understood until after the Resurrection.
When I read and reread your second paragraph above to comprehend what it is you think I don’t agree with i get lost. Where did I suggest John was not intending any reference to Communion? Yes, any Chistian hearing this gospel for the first time when it was new would immediately think of the Eucharist celebration they had been doing for decades, but how do you know they had by this time they had invented Transubstantiation? For your information every time my church celebrates Communion we hear the words “this is my body broken for you, take, eat in remembrance of me.”
First, let me be clear that I don’t believe transubstantiation was invented at any time. That the Church has from its conception taught the real presence and the real reception of Jesus in the Eucharist, that it is truly His body and blood, and that it is a partaking of the divine nature, is a tenet of apostolic faith, Catholic and Orthodox.

My point is that John 6 was not something new or prior to tradition, nor is it independent of it. It always has in mind Christian teachings and traditions that predated it, and gives theological meaning to these traditions. It was and is a catechesis on the real presence in communion, especially in the first century. That is, it’s not a retroactive reading on our part, but John specifically and intentionally recording these words of Jesus here as a first century explanation of the real presence. John is not just thinking of those who left Jesus by the Sea of Galilee, he is also thinking of and speaking to those in the early Church community around 90 AD who found the real presence to be a “hard teaching.” There is a reason John wrote this, tied it into the manna of the Israelites, and did not write another summary of the words of institution.

And I don’t think John is a fool. I’m only saying that holding that the bread of life discourse is not a defense of the real presence seems to lead to the conclusion that John’s a fool. John was not writing prior to the Christian community, he was writing during it and after it had already become established, after the Communion meal was an established part of Christian worship. When John writes:* "53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.*, he is thinking of the Eucharist and is teaching on the Eucharist. If he’s not writing on the real presence, and if he is fully knowledgeable that Christians eat the communion meal calling it the flesh and blood of Christ (as a non-literal metaphor, if we deny the real presence), then he’d have to be very, very foolish to think this wouldn’t cause scandal and heresy in stressing multiple times that Jesus’ flesh must be eaten and gnawed and that it is true food and *true *drink (and not metaphorical food and drink), especially since he gives no clarification or correction. It’s not just John’s words taken alone, but John’s words in the context of first century Christian worship. It really doesn’t make sense if the real presence was not what he intended and an already accepted belief.
 
I don’t think it is unrealistic to believe that those who doubted who he was may have left Jesus and picked that time to do so. It very well may be they never really understood the sacrifice of following Him. I can see it from both side as a Catholic converted from Protestantism. I had never been introduced to the concept of Real Presence until I decided to enter the Catholic Church. It was a struggle for me at first, I had to put some time into learning the why of it before I could believe it. It was a hard teaching for me. But I got there.

I’m not a biblical scholar or a scholar of biblical languages, so I can’t explain it other than to say when it happens, when you “see” it, you know it is true.
I appreciate the honesty of your testimony Horton. We have had people who have left the Catholic Church and come over to our ranks. They describe it as an eye opening experience. I think it is important to realize that some folks have experienced a transition of their personal belief and who am I to judge their validity of their conviction regardless of which way it goes. How does one determine what someone else must believe? If each of us does not really believe from our heart but only because our Church or family dictates it to us, do we really believe?
 
I think everything that symbolism offers, Transubstantiation contains. But Transubstantiation is a deeper call to what “One Body” upholds. The “One Body” that “Protestantism” offers, is a common Baptism and “most” of the Scriptures (;)). Beyond that, there is substantial discord in Teaching.
I Would hope that we agree that a common Baptism and “most” of the Scripture would produce the essentials of belief in Christ that He requires for our acceptance into his sheepfold.
 
The Jew’s understood him as literally meaning the stone Temple on Mount Zion. Jesus literally meant the true Temple of His body, the place where God’s earthly presence dwells. I don’t think you’re going the word metaphor correctly in this case. Anyway, I see your point as further supporting the real presence. Jesus spoke in a way regarding the Temple that wasn’t clarified then and wasn’t understood until after the Resurrection. Likewise, Jesus offered no correction or explanation to his Apostles by what he meant in regards to eating His flesh. This also wasn’t understood until after the Resurrection.

First, let me be clear that I don’t believe transubstantiation was invented at any time. That the Church has from its conception taught the real presence and the real reception of Jesus in the Eucharist, that it is truly His body and blood, and that it is a partaking of the divine nature, is a tenet of apostolic faith, Catholic and Orthodox.

My point is that John 6 was not something new or prior to tradition, nor is it independent of it. It always has in mind Christian teachings and traditions that predated it, and gives theological meaning to these traditions. It was and is a catechesis on the real presence in communion, especially in the first century. That is, it’s not a retroactive reading on our part, but John specifically and intentionally recording these words of Jesus here as a first century explanation of the real presence. John is not just thinking of those who left Jesus by the Sea of Galilee, he is also thinking of and speaking to those in the early Church community around 90 AD who found the real presence to be a “hard teaching.” There is a reason John wrote this, tied it into the manna of the Israelites, and did not write another summary of the words of institution.

And I don’t think John is a fool. I’m only saying that holding that the bread of life discourse is not a defense of the real presence seems to lead to the conclusion that John’s a fool. John was not writing prior to the Christian community, he was writing during it and after it had already become established, after the Communion meal was an established part of Christian worship. When John writes:* "53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.*, he is thinking of the Eucharist and is teaching on the Eucharist. If he’s not writing on the real presence, and if he is fully knowledgeable that Christians eat the communion meal calling it the flesh and blood of Christ (as a non-literal metaphor, if we deny the real presence), then he’d have to be very, very foolish to think this wouldn’t cause scandal and heresy in stressing multiple times that Jesus’ flesh must be eaten and gnawed and that it is true food and *true *drink (and not metaphorical food and drink), especially since he gives no clarification or correction. It’s not just John’s words taken alone, but John’s words in the context of first century Christian worship. It really doesn’t make sense if the real presence was not what he intended and an already accepted belief.
Well I can safely say that I do not believe I am as learned and confident in how things unfolded in the first years as you are so I am willing to leave it at that.
 
I Would hope that we agree that a common Baptism and “most” of the Scripture would produce the essentials of belief in Christ that He requires for our acceptance into his sheepfold.
Yes. It’s a thanksgiving meal, not a prerequisite to being accepted. Jesus accepted the Apostles long before offering them Communion. It was the last thing He offered them. Communion is the result of being accepted. It is what those who are accepted do. We do so, to “abide” in Him.
 
If they did not understand Jesus, then there is nothing wrong with their unbelief, correct? After all it is a teacher’s job to help students comprehend.

What you have said about the Catechism, is what I have heard verbatim from non-Christians. 🙂
A teacher can only do so much. It is not a teacher’s fault if after explaining 2+2=4, some of his or her students fail the math quiz by answering 5.
 
A teacher can only do so much. It is not a teacher’s fault if after explaining 2+2=4, some of his or her students fail the math quiz by answering 5.
Depends on if the teacher knew that after explanation, some of the students were still under the impression that 2+2=5. Do you know of teachers who knowingly let their students leave under the impression that 2+2=5, without calling them back and trying to explain again?

Now in this case the Teacher taught that you had to eat His Flesh. Some of His followers walked away after hearing this. According to most Protestants, they walked away because they believed He was being literal. Catholics believe He was being literal. But according to most Protestants, He was being metaphorical. But, from inspired Scripture, we know He used terminology right before they left, that has never been used metaphorically.

So, if He was being metaphorical, in some sense He taught 2+2=5. And for that reason, there can be nothing wrong with followers walking away.

He either let them walk away, because they clearly understood what He was saying, and they could not accept it. Or He let them walk away, knowing they misunderstood.
 
D

He either let them walk away, because they clearly understood what He was saying, and they could not accept it. Or He let them walk away, knowing they misunderstood.
Or is it just as John 6 states that Jesus told them there are some of them who believe not. It also says he knew from the beginning who they were that believed not. Verse 65 Jesus explains that no one can come to him except it were given unto him from his Father…FROM that time many left him. When Jesus asked the twelve if they were going to leave as well Peter said “…we believe, and are SURE you are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
 
Or is it just as John 6 states that Jesus told them there are some of them who believe not. It also says he knew from the beginning who they were that believed not. Verse 65 Jesus explains that no one can come to him except it were given unto him from his Father…FROM that time many left him. When Jesus asked the twelve if they were going to leave as well Peter said “…we believe, and are SURE you are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
I agree that “belief” is what Jesus meant too. Belief that is “accepting” IS “eating” too!

But when He went further and said in verse 51…

"… and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Is He talking about His sacrifice?
 
Yes. It’s a thanksgiving meal, not a prerequisite to being accepted. Jesus accepted the Apostles long before offering them Communion. It was the last thing He offered them. Communion is the result of being accepted. It is what those who are accepted do. We do so, to “abide” in Him.
One positive thing about dialogue here at caf is that we discover new truths about the position of the other person.
 
I agree that “belief” is what Jesus meant too. Belief that is “accepting” IS “eating” too!

But when He went further and said in verse 51…

"… and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Is He talking about His sacrifice?
Are you starting to yell? 😃

Of course i beleive He is talking about His sacrifice. His once and for all sacrifice and subsequent resurrection is the total basis for Christianity. Without both of those there is nothing to it. To believe on Him is to begin to devour His message and learn of Him and grow into a close and mature relationship with Him enabled by the Holy Spirit.
 
Are you starting to yell? 😃
Ha, no… just wanted that question noticed. I believe it’s where He ties the two Spiritual and Body/Blood natures together.
Of course i beleive He is talking about His sacrifice. His once and for all sacrifice and subsequent resurrection is the total basis for Christianity. Without both of those there is nothing to it. To believe on Him is to begin to devour His message and learn of Him and grow into a close and mature relationship with Him enabled by the Holy Spirit.
If all I knew was John 6, and NOT the Gospel institution of His Supper, I would agree with everything you interpret. But the fact that He establishes a Communion of His Sacrificial Flesh and Blood, which suffered a real death and resurrection, I can’t see His words as meaning only a symbolic interpretation. The symbolism is there, of course. And belief that accepts, is also a form of metaphorically eating. But we don’t just Commune in Spirit, with a symbolic real food. We Commune Spiritually and it IS His flesh and blood. Because His flesh and blood is equal to the Spirit, and merited the pouring out of His Spirit to everlasting life and resurrection.

On a side note… did you know that unused semen goes into the blood stream? It’s strange, I know. And I’m not sure if it’s relative to the topic… I just find it interesting. 😃
 
Ha, no… just wanted that question noticed. I believe it’s where He ties the two Spiritual and Body/Blood natures together.

If all I knew was John 6, and NOT the Gospel institution of His Supper, I would agree with everything you interpret. But the fact that He establishes a Communion of His Sacrificial Flesh and Blood, which suffered a real death and resurrection, I can’t see His words as meaning only a symbolic interpretation. The symbolism is there, of course. And belief that accepts, is also a form of metaphorically eating. But we don’t just Commune in Spirit, with a symbolic real food. We Commune Spiritually and it IS His flesh and blood. Because His flesh and blood is equal to the Spirit, and merited the pouring out of His Spirit to everlasting life and resurrection.

On a side note… did you know that unused semen goes into the blood stream? It’s strange, I know. And I’m not sure if it’s relative to the topic… I just find it interesting. 😃
Please explain the Gospel institution of His Supper.
 
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