John 6

[Tinkerbell]

I was reading John 6. I know this is one of the several chapters where we get our belief of the euchrist.
John 6:51 says: I myself am the living bread come down from haven. If anyone eats this bread he shall live forever; the bread I will give IS my flesh, for the life of the world.
Later in verse 63 is says: It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words I spoke to you are spirit and life.

One verse says the bread IS my flesh and other says the flesh is useless. I’m confused??? Like to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Look at the theme of John:

“The Word became flesh” in John 1

“That which is born of spirit is spirit, that which is born of flesh is flesh” in John 3, I think

The point Jesus made in John 6 is that his flesh as bread for us **is different. **His flesh is not just earthly flesh, but bread from heaven. When Jesus says the flesh profits nothing, he is referring to earthly flesh, that’s why He kept emphasizing that His flesh is bread from heaven.

Now look back at what I referred to in John 1 and John 3:

See! Isn’t God wonderful!

 

[Christy_Beth]

The bible can be confusing, and I’ve seen the fruit of it on other discussion boards. There are people who will take one verse so far out of context you have to wonder what the deal is. At least here, you can be assured of the quality of the answers.

 

[heber]

ann:

I was reading John 6. I know this is one of the several chapters where we get our belief of the euchrist.
John 6:51 says: I myself am the living bread come down from haven. If anyone eats this bread he shall live forever; the bread I will give IS my flesh, for the life of the world.
Later in verse 63 is says: It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words I spoke to you are spirit and life.

One verse says the bread IS my flesh and other says the flesh is useless. I’m confused??? Like to hear your thoughts on this.

Ann,

Excellent that you saw this. This chapter actually has nothing to do with the Lord’s Supper. John is the only one of the four Gospels that does not give an account of the Lord’s Supper. As was already mentioned, John 1.14 tells us that “the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us”. To ‘eat His flesh’ and ‘drink His blood’ in the context of John is to come to Him, hear his word, and believe on Him. It is his Word growing faith in our hearts that gives us eternal life. E.g. verses 35, 51, 63, etc. Jesus loved to speak in parables and metaphors; and this is one of them. In giving us the Gospel, He gave us his flesh, by which we receive eternal life.

 

[walter]

Help
I hope some knowledgeable Catholic will come on and correct the misunderstandings of John 6 on this thread. What has been said so far is not Catholic teaching. As a matter of fact the last post is definitely protestant.

 

[heber]

walter:

Help
I hope some knowledgeable Catholic will come on and correct the misunderstandings of John 6 on this thread. What has been said so far is not Catholic teaching. As a matter of fact the last post is definitely protestant.

No, my post happens to be Christian; and my understanding is solidly rooted in sound Biblical interpretation.

 

[walter]

heber:

No, my post happens to be Christian; and my understanding is solidly rooted in sound Biblical interpretation.

whose - yours
another who considers himself to be a pope

 

[Greg_McPherran]

walter:

Help
I hope some knowledgeable Catholic will come on and correct the misunderstandings of John 6 on this thread. What has been said so far is not Catholic teaching. As a matter of fact the last post is definitely protestant.

Actually, my previous post (the 2nd post from the top) explains John 6 properly (Catholic).

I will repeat it here:

Look at the theme of John:

“The Word became flesh” in John 1

“That which is born of spirit is spirit, that which is born of flesh is flesh” in John 3, I think

The point Jesus made in John 6 is that his flesh as bread for us **is different. **His flesh is not just earthly flesh, but bread from heaven. When Jesus says the flesh profits nothing, he is referring to earthly flesh, that’s why He kept emphasizing that His flesh is bread from heaven.

Now look back at what I referred to in John 1 and John 3:

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

heber:

Ann,

Excellent that you saw this. This chapter actually has nothing to do with the Lord’s Supper. John is the only one of the four Gospels that does not give an account of the Lord’s Supper. As was already mentioned, John 1.14 tells us that “the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us”. To ‘eat His flesh’ and ‘drink His blood’ in the context of John is to come to Him, hear his word, and believe on Him. It is his Word growing faith in our hearts that gives us eternal life. E.g. verses 35, 51, 63, etc. Jesus loved to speak in parables and metaphors; and this is one of them. In giving us the Gospel, He gave us his flesh, by which we receive eternal life.

This is a Protestant explanation and is in error. At the end of John 6, note that Jesus refers to the betrayer (Judas) and the people who did not believe in the Eucharist.

heber:

To ‘eat His flesh’ and ‘drink His blood’ in the context of John is to come to Him, hear his word, and believe on Him. It is his Word growing faith in our hearts that gives us eternal life. E.g. verses 35, 51, 63, etc. Jesus loved to speak in parables and metaphors; and this is one of them. In giving us the Gospel, He gave us his flesh, by which we receive eternal life.

Absolutely incorrect. It is the Protestant “communion” that is nothing more than symbolic bread. As nothing more than bread, Protestant “communion” is indeed the earthly flesh that Jesus said profits nothing.

heber:

This chapter actually has nothing to do with the Lord’s Supper.

Absolutely incorrect. It absoultely has to do with the last supper:

John 6:51 the bread
Luke 22:19 he took the bread

John 6:51 **that I will give **
Luke 22:19 gave it to them

John 6:51 **is my flesh **
Luke 22:19 is my body

John 6:51 for the life of the world
Luke 22:19 for you

Convert to Catholicism - the true faith.

 

[Maccabees]

Ann

One verse says the bread IS my flesh and other says the flesh is useless. I’m confused??? Like to hear your thoughts on this.

This contrary to the Biblical opinion according to Heber is absolutely talking about the last supper. John 6:32-60 is referring to what Old Testament prefigurement?

Well it’s the manna given to the Israelites that they ate to sustain them and gave them life.

Exodus 16
15So when the children of Israel saw it, they said to one another, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was.
And Moses said to them, "This is the bread which the LORD has given you to eat.

Hey prots get a clue its called the bread of life discourse.

Well good Biblical exegesis goes from the OT type to the NT fulfillment.

John 6
48I am the bread of life. 49Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

In the prot interpretation there is no fulfillment with from the lesser OT type to the greater NT fulfillment.

You have in fact an OT miracle (the manna from heaven) to the lesser bread as symbol only in evangelical prot. . If this is true than this is the only time in the Bible where an OT type Is superior to its NT fulfillment.

 

[Maccabees]

You break this down even more Jesus is obviously talking about the Lord’s suuper.

John 6
58This is the bread which came down from heaven–not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

What bread is Jesus talking about here?

John 6
51I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

Jesus says “My Flesh”

When did Jesus give his flesh for the life of the world?

The Catholic Answer is the cross. Is Jesus talking symbolically here or literally?

If you say symbolically than the conclusion is that Jesus symbolically died on the cross.

The question here is the flesh spoken in John 6 real or symbolic? For catholics it is the same flesh that was hung on the cross “My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." The command then says

John 6
53Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For My flesh is food indeed,1] and My blood is drink indeed. 56He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58This is the bread which came down from heaven–not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

This is not the language of parables and meataphors. In no parable and no metaphor do people leave his ministry due to a difficult teaching. Only literal commands that they refuse to accept do they leave at.

The Jews knew he was speaking literally.

John 6
52The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

His disciples knew he was speaking literally.

John 6
Many Disciples Turn Away
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life

 

[Maccabees]

Now after an entire chapter of speaking of the benfits of “My Flesh” does Jesus turn into a split personality?

John 6
63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Well yeah in the prots interpretation you have Jesus contradicting himself and wasting his time for over 60 verses.

Part of the problem is neo-protestnat interpretation of spirit as meaning symbolic.

Biblically the word spirit (in greek pneuma) is always referred to as literal.

Is the holy spirit symbolic? Not it is literally the third person of the holy trinity.

John 4
24God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Is God (who is spirit) literally the first person of the trinity? Of Course.

So are the words spoken in the spirit they are literal. Find me where spirit means somethin symbolic in the NT and I will convert to your fundy church.

The other operative words “the flesh” its distinct from Christ flesh which Jesus just said he’s going to give up for the life of the world.Does this flesh profits nothing? No, it’s ‘the flesh’. And if the former is right than protestants and catholics alike are in big trouble for we are still in our sins if Jesus flesh profits nothing. The flesh in the NT oftern refers to the human person apart from grace. And that is the context Jesus is referring to. If you are in the flesh and not in the spirit you cannot begin to understand the supernatural teaching of John 6. The people who were in the flesh walked away. Paul tells us about the differnce about people in the spirit and in the flesh.

Romans 8

Free from Indwelling Sin

Salvation from Sin, Death, and Suffering
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,1] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[Todd_Easton]

ann:

One verse says the bread IS my flesh and other says the flesh is useless. I’m confused??? Like to hear your thoughts on this.

my flesh and the flesh are two different things:
my flesh = Jesus’ flesh; Jesus’ body which was offered up to death in obedience to God the Father for the salvation of the world; most useful.
the flesh = human wisdom; worldly wisdom; natural, unspiritual human understanding; human understanding unaided by the Holy Spirit; useless as far as attaining eternal life is concerned.

The Eucharistic theme of John 6 is unmistakable. The Last Supper is recalled with mention of the Passover being near (v. 4) and mention of the betrayal of Judas Iscariot, who left the Last Supper to betray Jesus (vv. 64 and 70-71). And, in the Greek, the word Eucharisteo appears twice (vv. 11 and 23).

John 6:25-50 deals with believing that Jesus is come from God.
John 6:51-71 deals with Jesus’s teaching on eating his body and drinking his blood, the Eucharist.

John 6:63 is best understood in light of 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, especially vv. 12-14:
"Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit. The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. "

So, here’s my take on John 6:63:
…When Jesus said, “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail,” Jesus was saying pretty much the same thing as when Paul said, “The unspiritual man does not receive the [life-giving] gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor 2:14)
…When Jesus said, “the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe,” Jesus was saying,“When I told you that you must ‘eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood’, I was speaking of a spiritual truth, that life-giving gift of the Spirit of God called the Eucharist, which only the spiritual men among you will accept because it is spiritually discerned.”

John 6:63 applies not only to the Holy Eucharist but to all the Sacraments, those outward signs instituted by Christ to give grace: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony. The unspiritual man only sees the outward sign and does not discern the grace. For example, to the unspiritual man Baptism just gets someone wet but to the spiritual man Baptism more importantly washes away one’s past sins, fills one with the Holy Spirit, and makes one a member of the Body of Christ. Likewise, to the unspiritual man the Holy Eucharist is just a meager meal of what appears to be a little bit of unleavened bread and a small sip of wine but to the spiritual man receiving the Holy Eucharist is more importantly communion with the very Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God.

Todd

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Maccabees:

…“the flesh” its distinct from Christ’s flesh…

Amen! Well said!

Yes. By flesh that profits nothing Jesus is referring to flesh born of flesh, not His flesh that is born of spirit. Look at John 3. Jesus knew the people were thinking of eating His flesh in earthly terms as just meat not the bread from heaven, that’s why he said that this kind of flesh (and thinking) profits nothing.
Todd Easton:

Likewise, to the unspiritual man the Holy Eucharist is just a meager meal of what appears to be a little bit of unleavened bread and a small sip of wine but to the spiritual man receiving the Holy Eucharist is more importantly communion with the very Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God.

Amen! Well said!

Greg

 

[Tinkerbell]

Thanks for the info. I’m going to print it out and read it when everything is quiet.
By the why I did recognize Heber post as being protestant right off the bat. I was so glad someone came to my rescue. I’ll be checking in again to see if anyone else has any thought on this. I would like to learn how to explain this as simply as possible. It probably can’t be done since we have to look at the whole bible to see how it all fits together. When explaining things to prot they expect you to spit out one bible verse to prove everything. ugh!!
Thanks again

 

[Greg_McPherran]

ann:

I would like to learn how to explain this as simply as possible.

The flesh that profits nothing (useless) is flesh born of flesh.

The flesh (bread from heaven) that profits eternal life is Jesus’ flesh which is born of spirit.

Refer to John 3:6

Can’t get much simpler than that.

God Bless, Ann!

 

[walter]

Thank you to Greg,Tod and Maccabees for those explanations - of course they are the correct interpretations.
Protestants are still living in the shadows and cannot see it. They are living under the types and not the fulfillment of them.

 

[heber]

ann:

Thanks for the info. I’m going to print it out and read it when everything is quiet.
By the why I did recognize Heber post as being protestant right off the bat. I was so glad someone came to my rescue. I’ll be checking in again to see if anyone else has any thought on this. I would like to learn how to explain this as simply as possible. It probably can’t be done since we have to look at the whole bible to see how it all fits together. When explaining things to prot they expect you to spit out one bible verse to prove everything. ugh!!
Thanks again

Ann, I am a Christian, and it matters not to me what you prefer to call me. I love the truth, and the Word of God; and simply shared with you some of my understanding. The text of John is obvious that Christ is the “Word made Flesh”, and the “flesh” which He exhorts us to partake of, which will impart to us eternal life, is His words, which are Spirit and Life. Nothing could be more obvious; and you caught some glimpse of that light—which is why you started this topic. I hope that God will help you to press on to further light, and not become ensnared in the specious reasonings which try to overcome the light with darkness and deceit.

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

ann:

I was reading John 6. I know this is one of the several chapters where we get our belief of the euchrist.
John 6:51 says: I myself am the living bread come down from haven. If anyone eats this bread he shall live forever; the bread I will give IS my flesh, for the life of the world.
Later in verse 63 is says: It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words I spoke to you are spirit and life.

One verse says the bread IS my flesh and other says the flesh is useless. I’m confused??? Like to hear your thoughts on this.

Jesus is refering to the fact that feeding our souls is much more important than feeding our bellies.

In the Eucharist, we feed our souls with Heavenly food, Jesus’ body, blood, soul, and divinity. It is not meant to feed our body though we do get some substinance for it as well.

This is upping the value of Bread from Heaven. In the old testament, the manna feed the bodies. In the new testament, The Eucharist feed the soul.

 

[walter]

; simply shared with you some of my understanding…

This is part of the problem - it is your understanding and you really have no one to go to for confirmation as to whether or not it is the proper interpretation. The Catholic understanding comes from the teaching of the Church and not individual interpretations.
That is why they are in agreement on this subject.
God Bless.