John 6

[Greg_McPherran]

heber:

Greg, first you told me that my understanding was a result of satanic deception.

Nope. My first comment of your error was that it was a standard Protestant teaching. Read Post #9.

Greg

 

[walter]

Greg_McPherran:

God wants you to come to the truth. If and after you convert, you may be trying to correct a Protestant yourself sometime and you will know exactly where they are coming from.

May God grant you His light, His joy, and His peace, because I know that I have found Him here in the authentic Church that stands on the foundation of the apostles. Come join the apostles in their Church. You are welcomed and the door is opened. Seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened. It was opened to you here, do not be afraid says Jesus!

May God Bless You and Lead You,
Greg

Greg
I am with you 100 percent on this. As I said earlier I am a convert and do know what it is like to be a protestant.
I don’t believe that much more can be said here though.
I just re-iterate what you have said to Heber.
The full truth really does set you free.

walter

 

[heber]

jordan:

Wow…heber!:

…]

You didn’t address my comments at all. It is quite obvious where you’re coming from with your own comment about “papal” Rome. I will pray for you.

You might want to take a look at this as well, since it’s on the CA website, and is definitely on topic:

catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp

May you find peace and Truth.

jordan

Jordan, there is too much in the context of John that supports my understanding, and disproves the common RC one.

The Word was made Flesh makes the association between *logov *and sarx in chapter 1.

John is the only Gospel that does not contain an account of the Last Supper. The other Gospels and I Corinthians all use swma (body) in the accounts of the Last Supper, and not sarx, which is unique in this passage of John, which does not refer to the Last supper.

That “flesh” in chapter 1 is manifested as the true bread of God in chapter 6:

32 …my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he who cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world.
34 Then said they to him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me, shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me, shall never thirst.

and,

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man shall eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

This ties in with John 1 where the Word was made flesh. Which is why he says in verse 57:

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Do you remember that "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God?

When the disciples could not relate to eating His literal flesh, He explained:

63 It is the spirit that reviveth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life.

And,

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

Coupled with chapter 15:

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you…

Consider this passage of John 17:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they may know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

Now, how is it possible to ‘know’ the Father and Christ except through the words which Christ imparted to us. Surely one cannot ‘know’ them by partaking of the elements. More from John 17:

8 For I have given to them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Here again is the partaking of His flesh and blood—receiving His words, and believing on Him.

The case for this interpretation/understanding is, frankly, overwhelming, and a person would have to deliberately choose to not see it, in order to miss it—or, perhaps, simply be ignorant.

 

[flatliner]

heber:

However I will say to you truthfully, that my conclusions on John 6 (which are not errant) were arrived at simply from prayerfully reading the text and beseeching and relying on the Holy Spirit for guidance—and did not come from some commentary. You need help! May God have mercy on you.

This is the same kind of thing the mormons told me when they came to my doorstep. They prayerfully read the book of mormon and it is revealed to them by the “holy spirit” that it is another testament of christ. Why are they wrong and you right? I’m sure you agree that they are wrong. But their methodology is identical to yours.

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

heber:

The case for this interpretation/understanding is, frankly, overwhelming, and a person would have to deliberately choose to not see it, in order to miss it—or, perhaps, simply be ignorant.

It is this sort of comment, that stands out like a blaring horn which when coupled with the incomplete analysis, indicates that the speaker is not open to the full Truth, is afraid of what the Truth would mean in their lives, or is deliberately trying to mislead others into their errors.

When you see such a circumstance, it is important to pray for the author that they come to surrender to the love of God, open their hearts to the full movement of the Spirit including openness to change their fallible opinions about their potentially errant and incomplete interpretations of scriptures.

 

[Jehu13]

heber:

Greg, I won’t even waste time responding in depth to your comments on my ‘satanic’ interpretations of the Scriptures,

What is funny about you Hebner is that you already assume that everyone thinks your Satanic. There you go and assume everyone here is condeming you.

for they only show the sickness of your own heart and soul, and your inability to relate to the Spirit of Truth.

You know the only one that I hear with sickness is you. You Point fingers right off the bat. It is easy to point the finger but harder to look and oneself and say that I can possibly be wrong.
Every fundamentalist always say I or My when they say that they Prayed about it. The thing I want you to ask yourself is if you have the Truth as far as Christianity then explain to me this. Why is it that there are over 30,000 Protestant Denominations that all say they are Biblical yet they all preach differently from each other. There is only one Catholic Church and it Teach the same thing all over the World. Most Protestant or Non Denomination “churches” can not even agree on certain things. I know a couple of Methodist that Believe that and take John 6 literally but others that do not. I know Methodist and Presbyterians Baptize infants and Yet Baptist and Assemblies of God “Churches” do not. Heck there are even some Christian “churches” that say you do not have to be baptized. Think about it as a whole if you do have the Truth then why is it that you and other Christians can not agree on certain believes like Baptism or is it Pray Jesus into your Heart?

However I will say to you truthfully, that my conclusions on John 6 (which are not errant) were arrived at simply from prayerfully reading the text and beseeching and relying on the Holy Spirit for guidance—and did not come from some commentary. You need help! May God have mercy on you.

You say that You have come to the Conclusion after much prayer and relying on the Holy Spirit. Ok I will give you that, but let me ask you How do you know it was the Holy Spirit that was teaching you. How do you know it was not another Spirit. Did you have a warm fuzzy feeling in the Pit of your Stomach like Mormons do when they pray about the Book of Mormon. Heck at the rate what happens if you have that same feeling when you read and pray about the Koran. Where will the feeling stop. Think about Man Who is your Final authority on Scripture. How do you know Scripture is inspired? And if you say that Bible says it is inspired, great I believe that Too but guess what the Book of Mormon and Koran say the same thing. Who is your final authority when it come to faith and Morals, Look in the Mirror and you will find the answer to that. If you ask any Catholic who is the final authority on faith and Morals the answer is alway Catholic church is the final authority on Faith and Morals. We Believe because we are obedient to the Churches Teaching not to the Teaching of our own interpretation. Think about what I have said. I will pray for you and I hope that you pray for me as well but when you pray that if we are the ones that are hoodwinked that we will come to realize the truth but also Pray that if you are the one that is in falsehood that you may come to the TRUTH.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

flatliner:

Why are they wrong and you right?

Look at my explanations and my posts and the posts of other Catholics and decide for yourself. What do you think?

 

[Greg_McPherran]

walter:

Greg
I am with you 100 percent on this. As I said earlier I am a convert and do know what it is like to be a protestant.
I don’t believe that much more can be said here though.
I just re-iterate what you have said to Heber.
The full truth really does set you free.

walter

Thank you for your kind words Walter. T.A. Stobie, Maccabees, Todd Easton and others are teaching beautifully to God’s glory.

 

[flatliner]

Greg_McPherran:

Look at my explanations and my posts and the posts of other Catholics and decide for yourself. What do you think?

I was asking heber. I, being cathoic, of course know that both the mormons and heber are wrong. But at least heber still worships the same God as us. Heh. My point was that the methodology of heber and the mormons is the same. and that, of course, is bad.

 

[jordan]

heber:

The case for this interpretation/understanding is, frankly, overwhelming, and a person would have to deliberately choose to not see it, in order to miss it—or, perhaps, simply be ignorant.

heber:

Did you bother to read the CA link I posted? I find your case to be underwhelming, and the case made by the apostles and the Fathers of the Church, and two millenia of faithful Christians to be overwhelming. I won’t resort to calling those who don’t agree with my opinion ignorant; but if this were a mere matter of opinion it could never be settled. Thanks be to God we are not left to blow with the wind. We have a solid apostolic Rock to stand on. The solution is fixed in Truth.

May God lead you to it.

jordan

 

[hoser]

Herber,

The following has been pretty much already in response to your insistant and incorrect belief that we all are guided by the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible.
There are thousands upon thousands (over 25,000) of non-Catholic denominations in the world. Why else would these divisions exist? They exist because each one has something different in their set of beliefs. If they all believed the Truth, then why the need for Lutherans or the Southern Baptists or North American Baptists or Presbyterians or Methodists or Pentecostals or United Church of Christ or the Congregationalists or the Shakers and the Quakers? Why the need for Seventh-day Adventists or the Episcopalians or the Church of the Nazarene or the Churches of God? Each one of these Churches claims the truth, “as the Holy Spirit has told them.” Are there thousands of Holy Spirits telling each one a truth? Or is there one Holy Spirit telling each a different truth? Truth is one and not thousands. There can be only one truth. There IS only one Holy Spirit.

If all Protestant Churches were guided by the Holy Spirit into truth, then how can you explain that Calvinists believe Baptism is a Sacrament, but Baptists do not? How do you explain that Lutherans say that Mary is the Mother of GOD, but Evangelicals say she is not? How do you explain that Episcopalians believe man has free will, yet Presbyterians deny it? Sola Scriptura supposedly is supposed to be clear on the issue of salvation. But, what about Baptismal regeneration? Lutherans, Anglicans, Church of Christ, and others who go by Sola Scriptura, believe in baptismal regeneration. However many evangelical Protestant denominations deny it. Sola Scriptura at work brings confusion on this most important issue. This is just not correct and cannot be correct.

In this verse from Acts, Philip was filled with the Holy Spirit so he was able to explain the following passage to him. This passage shows that not just anyone can read, understand and faithfully interpret scripture correctly. “Philip ran over and heard the man reading from the Prophet Isaiah; so he asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” The man replied, “How can I, when there is no one to instruct me?” And he begged Philip to come up into the carriage and sit with him.” **Acts 8:30-31 **

 

[Greg_McPherran]

heber:

The Word was made Flesh makes the association between *logov *and sarx in chapter 1.

This refers to the fact that God became a human with a true human body. This was **not figurative flesh. **This is the context of John 6 and not what you say. Again I already made it clear that if real flesh did not die on the cross we would not be saved. John 6 is talking about real flesh and it was real flesh that died on the cross.

heber:

The other Gospels and I Corinthians all use soma (body) in the accounts of the Last Supper, and not sarx

Sarx is the word for real flesh. Soma, for body has no bearing on whether sarx refers to real flesh or not. This is just smoke and mirrors meant to confuse innocents who don’t understand and can easily be led astray.

Sarx and soma both refer to the real physical flesh body of Jesus. Completely irrelevant argument that looks fancy but means nothing.

God is called “kyrios” and “theos”, but we don’t say that we are referring to two different Gods. You are just using sleight of hand. It’s nonsense.

The context of John is clearly real flesh and real flesh born of spirit vs. dead earthly flesh. It was **real flesh **that died on the cross.

You are incorrect about the context of John 6.

This is how Planned Parenthood answers questions about the truth of the unborn - they throw up irrelevant arguments that are meant to do nothing more than sidetrack.

 

[hoser]

continued…

“I plan to keep on reminding you of these things – even though you already know them and are standing firm in the truth. Yes, I believe I should keep on reminding you of these things as long as I live. But the Lord Jesus Christ has shown me that my days here on earth are numbered and I am soon to die. So I will work hard to make these things clear to you. I want you to remember them long after I am gone.

For we are not making up cleaver stories when we told you about the power of our Lord Jesus Christ and his coming again. We have seen his majestic splendor with our own eyes. And he received honor and glory from God the Father when God’s glorious, majestic voice called down from heaven, “This is my beloved Son; I am fully pleased with him.” We ourselves heard the voice when we were there with him on the holy mountain.

Because of that, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. Pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a light shining in a dark place – until the day Christ appears and his brilliant light shines in your hearts. Know this first of all, that there is no prophesy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the Holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.” **2Pet 1:12-21 **In context here, Peter is telling his readers to remember the teaching that came from him and the other Apostles; that they were anointed by God as teachers and preachers of the Word (verses 12-19). As a result, they are not to go interpreting Scripture definitively for themselves (verses 20-21).

 

[hoser]

still continued…

“Speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.” **2Pet 3:16-17 **this makes it very clear that it is easy to fall into error by private interpretation of scripture. How many of us are ignorant of scripture in some way? We need some authority to teach us, so that we are not led into error by our own personal ignorance.

“But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the spirit teaches you all things, and what he teaches is true-it is not a lie…” **1Jn 2:27 **Sola scriptura believers love to use this verse to prove that they as Christians can ask the Holy Spirit to guide them to the truth and therefore when reading scriptures they will be doing so without error in their personal interpretation. As pointed out above, the evangelical Baptist can pray for the Holy Spirit to guide them to the truth in regards to Baptismal regeneration and come to one conclusion, and a Lutheran will also ask the Holy Spirit to guide them to the truth about the same thing; however, both sola scriptura believers come up with two complete different beliefs and both claim the Holy Spirit guided them to their belief. How can this be? Protestants usually say at this point that all these issues or differences are secondary and all that is important is faith in Jesus. While Catholics will agree that Jesus IS the cornerstone of our faith these other issues CANNOT be tossed aside as unimportant! How is it that an individual Christian can decide what in the Bible is not very important or just secondary? The fact is that they cannot! The false man-made doctrine of sola scriptura has caused all this. Jesus wanted unity in His Church, but because of sola scriptura there is clearly not!

God Bless you Herber and hopefully someday you will find your way.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

hoser:

however, both sola scriptura believers come up with two complete different beliefs and both claim the Holy Spirit guided them to their belief. How can this be? Protestants usually say at this point that all these issues or differences are secondary and all that is important is faith in Jesus.

Excellent point, not to mention that Catholic teaching is always based on reason and not unreasonable arguments.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

You know what else is interesting. I don’t find Protestants getting involved in deep theological discussions on CA. But as soon as heber saw a Catholic with a sincere question, he pounced as if to take advantage of innocence.

His last attempt to sidetrack using sarx and soma when in fact both words refer to the real flesh body of Jesus, may be his last trick of darkness before he moves on to see where else he can mislead.

This is very similar to how the devil prowls to seek souls he can destroy. I would not want to accuse heber of purposefully doing the devil’s work, but there is some kind of dark deception here, whether purposeful or not. I say this because an incorrect argument that is crafted with such effort seems to come from a source that knows it is deceiving whether the messenger (heber) knows it or not.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

flatliner:

My point was that the methodology of heber and the mormons is the same. and that, of course, is bad.

Oh yes, I see now that you are showing what hoser is showing, that the Holy Spirit will never lead you to two disagreeing truths and that the Catholic Church is only reliable witness to truth because Jesus entrusted His Church with the safekeeping of the truth.

 

[Todd_Easton]

heber:

It is clear and obvious, from the context of John, that the “flesh” Christ gives us to eat, and which imparts to us eternal life, is His Word.

Indeed, we must believe Jesus’s words, take them to heart and live our lives accordingly but in John 5:51 Jesus did not say, “*My words *are the living bread…” He said, “I am the living bread…” and the word “I” means more than just his words. In Jesus’s case, “I” means “all of me”, “my entire being”, “my body, my flesh and my blood, my soul and my divinity”. When Jesus said, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven, if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever,” he meant he himself (his body, flesh and blood, soul, and divinity), not just his words, is the living bread from heaven which, if any eat, he will live for ever. Indeed, Jesus’s words are Spirit-filled and life-giving but Jesus gave more than just his words for the life of the world. Jesus gave himself (his body, flesh and blood, soul and divinity) for the life of the world. We must eat that living bread which he gave for the life of the world; we must eat Jesus, whole and entire. This is a hard saying and it is only possible to do in the Eucharist because only in the Eucharist is the whole Jesus really present in an edible form.

 

[flatliner]

Greg_McPherran:

Oh yes, I see now that you are showing what hoser is showing, that the Holy Spirit will never lead you to two disagreeing truths and that the Catholic Church is only reliable witness to truth because Jesus entrusted His Church with the safekeeping of the truth.

Yes sir. I was just trying to do it in a way that would hit home with heber. No protestant wants to stand with mormons even if it means standing agaist catholics.

 

[DuMaurier]

Roman pagans launched accusations of ritual cannibalism against the early Christians. I wonder why? Hmmm…



fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/christian-cannibals.html