John 6

[Greg_McPherran]

heber:

Nothing could be more obvious

Nonsense. Nothing can be more obvious than this:!

John 6:51 the bread
Luke 22:19 he took the bread

John 6:51 **that I will give **
Luke 22:19 gave it to them

John 6:51 **is my flesh **
Luke 22:19 is my body

John 6:51 for the life of the world
Luke 22:19 for you

Yet, you insist on an implausible explanation of John 6 that is nothing more than a tradition of Protestant men.

heber:

you caught some glimpse of that light—which is why you started this topic.

Wrong. She started this topic because she wanted to answer the darkness of Protestant reasoning and she came home before the devil could mislead her. She turned to Jesus and His Church because she trusts Jesus and His Church, the rock, not the sand that is sliding away. You also may know that she will lead whoever she is talking with to the truth and you are probably concerned about this.

heber:

I hope that God will help you to press on to further light, and not become ensnared in the specious reasonings which try to overcome the light with darkness and deceit.

You have been shown the light here, yet your prefer the darkness of your errant "tradition". You did not come to your misunderstanding of John 6 from the ***Bible alone, ***you came to this misunderstanding because you were first taught from a tradition of error.

Pride is the enemy of truth.

Convert to Catholicism. Come home. Continue talking with us. We will help you overcome years of training in error. Join us and defend the truth. Jesus urges you to join Him in the Church He founded. Will you walk away or stay as Peter did? If you walk away, aren’t you like the group who walked away from Jesus and Peter? Stay with Jesus and Peter. Stay with the truth.

May God bless you and lead to the way of the light, the way of truth. Stay in God’s warmth and love - don’t return to the darkness of prejudice against God and His Church. You would never think the way you do if you were not trained to prejudge the truth according to error.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

T.A.Stobie:

Jesus is refering to the fact that feeding our souls is much more important than feeding our bellies.

Amen! Well said Thomas if I may say so!

 

[heber]

walter:

This is part of the problem - it is your understanding and you really have no one to go to for confirmation as to whether or not it is the proper interpretation. The Catholic understanding comes from the teaching of the Church and not individual interpretations.
That is why they are in agreement on this subject.
God Bless.

Walter, The only ‘problem’ is in your own ‘understanding’ (or lack thereof). You have learned to be spoonfed, and incapable of thinking or ‘understanding’ for yourself. Instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth, as Christ said He would, you have learned to accept without question anything and everything Rome tells you to believe. The Old Testament Scriptures exhort us continually to seek wisdom and understanding. Thus also in the New Testament. Here are just a few quotes:

Mark 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said to him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is no other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said to him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that dared ask him any question.

Lu 24:45 Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: yet in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Eph 5:17 Therefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Col 1:9 ¶ For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Col 2:2 That their hearts may be comforted, being knit together in love, and to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things

---

So, if God desires to give us understanding, and exhorts us to grow in understanding, why should I reject the understanding He gives me, and let someone else dictate to me some erroneous understanding that conflicts with what the Holy Spirit clearly shows me. May God open your eyes, and give you understanding.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

heber:

some erroneous understanding that conflicts with what the Holy Spirit clearly shows me.

We have clearly shown you here. See my previous post.

Your ideas come not from the **Bible alone, **but from a **tradition of men. **If you read the Bible alone without referring to a commentary outside the Bible, would you have come to your errant conclusion of John 6? I think not? Consider this possibility: this is all part of the satanic reverse psychology of the Bible alone lie. First, you say Bible alone, then you arrive at errors that come from a tradition of men - this is satanic reverse psychology as a trick of the devil. The devil has you all messed up and twisted up.

What we have taught you here is the correct teaching of the Holy Scriptures. It is a clear teaching and a truthful explanation. You may be in shock because you can’t believe how wrong you have been and the so-called crazy Catholic Church has been right all along. Your first reaction may be pride, another form of darkness and not a virtue of the Holy Spirit. Also your heart seems hardened since you keep insisting on closing your eyes to the correct understanding of John 6. You need grace to overcome this.

You also consider yourself a brave soldier of Christ to stand up aginst those so-called crazy Catholics. I admire your spirit, you just need to apply it to the truth. You have the right courage, you are just on the wrong team.

 

[heber]

Greg_McPherran:

Nonsense. Nothing can be more obvious than this:!

John 6:51 the bread
Luke 22:19 he took the bread

John 6:51 **that I will give **
Luke 22:19 gave it to them

John 6:51 **is my flesh **
Luke 22:19 is my body

John 6:51 for the life of the world
Luke 22:19 for you

Yet, you insist on an implausible explanation of John 6 that is nothing more than a tradition of Protestant men.

Wrong. She started this topic because she wanted to answer the darkness of Protestant reasoning and she came home before the devil could mislead her. She turned to Jesus and His Church because she trusts Jesus and His Church, the rock, not the sand that is sliding away. You also may know that she will lead whoever she is talking with to the truth and you are probably concerned about this.

You have been shown the light here, yet your prefer the darkness of your errant "tradition". You did not come to your misunderstanding of John 6 from the ***Bible alone, ***you came to this misunderstanding because you were first taught from a tradition of error.

Pride is the enemy of truth.

Convert to Catholicism. Come home. Continue talking with us. We will help you overcome years of training in error. Join us and defend the truth. Jesus urges you to join Him in the Church He founded. Will you walk away or stay as Peter did? If you walk away, aren’t you like the group who walked away from Jesus and Peter? Stay with Jesus and Peter. Stay with the truth.

May God bless you and lead to the way of the light, the way of truth. Stay in God’s warmth and love - don’t return to the darkness of prejudice against God and His Church. You would never think the way you do if you were not trained to prejudge the truth according to error.

Greg

Greg, you could not be more mistaken. It was the light of God’s truth in the Gospel of Christ that led me to walk in the light, and to forsake the darkness of papal Rome. I have most likely looked far more deeply into papal Rome’s theology and history than you have, and my opinions are well rooted in sound understanding and historical truth. I can only hope for your sake that He will open your eyes as well. This isn’t the Dark Ages anymore. You have access to an enormous amount of information and truth (may God give you discernment) at your fingertips. I posted a link to a good book today on another thread. There are numerous other sites that also show the ‘other side’ of the papal system. Here is another good one. Christ calls us to walk in the light, and leads us by His Spirit in the way. Don’t let yourself remain captive in the darkness of man-made traditions and a multitude of deceits forever.

 

[jordan]

heber:

The problem is who the Holy Spirit guides into “all truth.” If anyone can claim that the Holy Spirit has “clearly” shown them something, how can the rest of us know for sure that the “Holy” Spirit is their guide. Many “Christians” disagree about fundamental teachings of Scripture, and use your argument that this understanding was revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If 100 Christians disagree about the meaning of Scripture, at best one of them can be right, and the other 99 can’t have been led by the Holy Spirit as they claimed.

Christ promised his apostles that they would be led by the Holy Spirit into all truth…not you, me, or the teary-eyed televangelist. A belief that we can each find our own truth in the Scriptures is to say that the Truth is relative.

We can either submit to an apostolic authority (which requires a bit of humility…an admission that someone has an authority that you don’t), or believe that the “spirit” which leads so many has led them into lies and divisions…that spirit is most certainly not the “Holy Spirit.”

jordan

 

[Greg_McPherran]

heber:

Greg, you could not be more mistaken. It was the light of God’s truth in the Gospel of Christ that led me to walk in the light, and to forsake the darkness of papal Rome. I have most likely looked far more deeply into papal Rome’s theology and history than you have, and my opinions are well rooted in sound understanding and historical truth. I can only hope for your sake that He will open your eyes as well. This isn’t the Dark Ages anymore. You have access to an enormous amount of information and truth (may God give you discernment) at your fingertips. I posted a link to a good book today on another thread. There are numerous other sites that also show the ‘other side’ of the papal system. Here is another good one. Christ calls us to walk in the light, and leads us by His Spirit in the way. Don’t let yourself remain captive in the darkness of man-made traditions and a multitude of deceits forever.

You haven’t even addressed our teachings of John 6. Do you seek to avoid this by changing the subject to the Pope?

We have given you the truth of John 6. Start another thread about the Pope if you like. I assure you, you will be well taken care of there also.

Come home to Jesus and His true Church - we welcome you!

 

[walter]

Heber
You don’t have to quote scripture to me. I know all about quoting scripture out of context to get your point across. I was a protestant most of my life and like you always searching for the truth. I finally found it in the Catholic Church.As a protestant everyone has the answer - including you - among hundreds of different ones. You would not believe how exciting it is to come home to the true Church.
I would only suggest that you be honest in your search for the truth - I believe that you are sincere but misled.
If the Catholic Church is not the Church that God started then there is none. And that is the truth.
The Catholics on this thread are right. Sorry.

 

[heber]

jordan:

heber:

The problem is who the Holy Spirit guides into “all truth.” If anyone can claim that the Holy Spirit has “clearly” shown them something, how can the rest of us know for sure that the “Holy” Spirit is their guide. Many “Christians” disagree about fundamental teachings of Scripture, and use your argument that this usderstanding was revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If 100 Christians disagree about the meaning of Scripture, at best one of them can be right, and the other 99 can’t have been led by the Holy Spirit as they claimed.

Christ promised his apostles that they would be led by the Holy Spirit into all truth…not you, me, or the teary-eyed televangelist. A belief that we can each find our own truth in the Scriptures is to say that the Truth is relative.

We can either submit to an apostolic authority (which requires a bit of humility…an admission that someone has an authority that you don’t), or believe that the “spirit” which leads so many has led them into lies and divisions…that spirit is most certainly not the “Holy Spirit.”

jordan

Jordan, To try to keep this on-topic re John 6, and address your comments at the same time:

It is clear and obvious, from the context of John, that the “flesh” Christ gives us to eat, and which imparts to us eternal life, is His Word. “The Word was with God, and the Word was God … and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…” “The flesh (as the Jews understood it) profits nothing. The words I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life.” There is so much in the Gospel of John that bears this out, that it would require multiple posts to address it in depth.

However, papal Rome never teaches this truth; but rather a falsehood. They claim that this refers to the Lord’s Supper; for in this way they can use the passage to enslave the minds of their adherents. For it then becomes necessary for the ‘believer’ to receive from them the ‘sacrament’ of transubstantiated bread and wine in order to receive the eternal life that this passage promises. But, the fact remains that the eternal life can only be had by receiving Christ’s words and believing on Him—which is what John 6 makes so clear. So, what you are calling ‘apostolic authority’ is nothing of the sort; but is deliberately leading you astray from Christ, and substituting a false doctrine for what the Holy Spirit makes clear—which is, that the “flesh” which imparts to us eternal life, is the Words of Christ.

Ann caught a glimpse of this, and began this thread with her question. But, the topic was pounced on by a number of people who are indoctrinated with manmade traditions, and seem incapable of seeing what the Holy Spirit makes clear in the passage.

 

[heber]

Greg_McPherran:

If you read the Bible alone without referring to a commentary outside the Bible, would you have come to your errant conclusion of John 6? I think not?

Greg, I won’t even waste time responding in depth to your comments on my ‘satanic’ interpretations of the Scriptures, for they only show the sickness of your own heart and soul, and your inability to relate to the Spirit of Truth.

However I will say to you truthfully, that my conclusions on John 6 (which are not errant) were arrived at simply from prayerfully reading the text and beseeching and relying on the Holy Spirit for guidance—and did not come from some commentary. You need help! May God have mercy on you.

 

[Jehu13]

There is one Book that I would recommed to you all that is just great it is called Catholic Doctrine In Scripture by Gregory Oatis. This is one of the Best books out there that just gives verse for verse on Anything about the Faith. I hope that helps.

 

[walter]

Ann
I only hope that you will continue to search for the truth. Do not let Heber lead you astray for he has no idea what he is talking about even though I do believe that he is sincere.
God gave the Church the duty of teaching the faith - not Heber or the thousands of other protestants out there who think that their interpretation is the correct one.

Walter

 

[Greg_McPherran]

“The Word was with God, and the Word was God … and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…”

That’s right! The Word was made flesh, not the Word was made the Word.

That’s the whole reason we are saved, because the word was made **flesh. **This is not figurative flesh, the incarnation was real but then all of a sudden you say it’s figurative. Please accept truth, this is getting silly.

Jesus flesh is **flesh born of the Spirit, **that’s exactly whay His death and our Euchartist profit eternal life not like flesh that is born of flesh that profits nothing.

heber:

Jordan, To try to keep this on-topic re John 6. However, papal Rome never teaches this truth;

It is you unknowingly in darkness who is not teaching the truth. Stop changing the subject. It would appear that you are also playing an immature reverse psychology game. This is not a Christian approach at all.

heber:

that the “flesh” which imparts to us eternal life, is the Words of Christ.

Absolutely incorrect and ridiculously easily seen to be in error. It is real flesh born of the Holy Spirit that died on the cross and that is our salvation. Jesus’ flesh was not figurative. Please, this is silly.

heber:

Ann caught a glimpse of this, and began this thread with her question.

Oh please, Ann had a simple question and presumed to have no glimpse of anything, she just wanted to understand the truth. Satan would jump on a simple question and try to lead into error by trickery like this.

We have given solid truthful explanations - these explanations stand for themselves - let him who has eyes see.

 

[Micki]

heber:

Greg, I won’t even waste time responding in depth to your comments on my ‘satanic’ interpretations of the Scriptures, for they only show the sickness of your own heart and soul, and your inability to relate to the Spirit of Truth.

However I will say to you truthfully, that my conclusions on John 6 (which are not errant) were arrived at simply from prayerfully reading the text and beseeching and relying on the Holy Spirit for guidance—and did not come from some commentary. You need help! May God have mercy on you.

Obviously, this whole discussion boils down to the issue of authority. If you don’t accept the authority of Jesus Christ through His Church, that is apostolic tradition, then you are likely to follow your own ideas. Sadly, these ideas are NOT always the working of the Holy Spirit and are more likely tainted by our pride.

Micki

 

[Greg_McPherran]

heber:

However I will say to you truthfully, that my conclusions on John 6 (which are not errant) were arrived at simply from prayerfully reading the text and beseeching and relying on the Holy Spirit for guidance—and did not come from some commentary.

Nonsense! Your explanation is what is found in Protestant commentaries and I think you’d have to work at it to avoid many sentences of emphasis by Jesus. This Scripture is taught so emphatically and forcefully by Jesus, you’d have to work at avoiding it.

Please address my corrections of your statements. You have done little of that.

 

[jordan]

heber:

Jordan, To try to keep this on-topic re John 6, and address your comments at the same time:

It is clear and obvious, from the context of John, that the “flesh” Christ gives us to eat, and which imparts to us eternal life, is His Word. “The Word was with God, and the Word was God … and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…” “The flesh (as the Jews understood it) profits nothing. The words I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life.” There is so much in the Gospel of John that bears this out, that it would require multiple posts to address it in depth.

However, papal Rome never teaches this truth; but rather a falsehood.

Wow…heber!:

My comments were addressed to your “clear and obvious” opinions that are not clear and obvious to millions of Christians who believe that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord.

You didn’t address my comments at all. It is quite obvious where you’re coming from with your own comment about “papal” Rome. I will pray for you.

You might want to take a look at this as well, since it’s on the CA website, and is definitely on topic:

catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp

May you find peace and Truth.

jordan

 

[walter]

It is quite obvious that Heber is not the least bit interested in the truth - only in promoting his own agenda.
Like Micki said it all boils down to a matter of authority and we all can see that Heber is his own. It is nice to be your own authority - you can say whatever you like. Gives you a good feeling.
I used to love going to bible studies and give everyone the truth. It felt good that God talked to me personally. The problem is that I eventually found out that it wasn’t all the truth.
sola scriptura does not cut it and therefore neither does ones own interpretation. That includes John 6.

 

[heber]

Greg_McPherran:

Nonsense! Your explanation is what is found in Protestant commentaries and I think you’d have to work at it to avoid many sentences of emphasis by Jesus. This Scripture is taught so emphatically and forcefully by Jesus, you’d have to work at avoiding it.

Please address my corrections of your statements. You have done little of that.

Greg, first you told me that my understanding was a result of satanic deception. Now, you, in essence, have called me a liar, even though I’ve told you the truth. If the Holy Spirit open my eyes to see a truth in the Scriptures, and someone else happens to have seen the same truth, and published it in a commentary, it only means that we’ve both (or all) seen the same truth. You are evidently the one held captive in your mind by Satan, to accuse me of having borrowed the understanding from the other, when the text shows it clearly, and I’ve told you that I saw it from simply reading the text—and then you’ve accused me of having lied to you about it.

As far as I’m concerned, you are incapable of entering into an intelligent discussion, and I’ll not make any further response to you. As far as addressing your ‘corrections’, that’s not possible, for you haven’t made any.

 

[Tinkerbell]

Hi everybody,

Man, this sure was a lively debate!!!

First, I want to say I do believe that the Euchrist is the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
Second, I believe in the Pope because Jesus started his Church upon Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Some versus are just confusing and since I’m not a Biblical Schoolar I figured I come here for an explanation, and I must say I really got some good ones.

Thanks everybody

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Dear Heber,

heber:

I’ll not make any further response to you.

You didn’t respond to begin with.

heber:

As far as addressing your ‘corrections’, that’s not possible, for you haven’t made any.

I must respectfully say, that’s a lie. I have spelled out the truth about the error of the figurative flesh argument very well and given solid as a rock evidence from Scripture plus solid as a rock reasoning yet you have no refutation and you leave. Note the analogy to “resist the devil and he will flee.”

God wants you to come to the truth. If and after you convert, you may be trying to correct a Protestant yourself sometime and you will know exactly where they are coming from.

May God grant you His light, His joy, and His peace, because I know that I have found Him here in the authentic Church that stands on the foundation of the apostles. Come join the apostles in their Church. You are welcomed and the door is opened. Seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened. It was opened to you here, do not be afraid says Jesus!

May God Bless You and Lead You,
Greg